Should bakers be forced to make gender transition celebration cakes?

[Loren Pechtel]

I’m sure the lawyer got a cake. Just not from Bigot Bakery.

Nobody has addressed my idea of letting a baker bill themself as an artist...

It's not what you bill yourself as, it's what you actually do.

Creative processes to make a one-of-a-kind object: You're an artist. (Yes, this means in a sense computer programmers are artists. It's just our medium is very different and our products are sold differently.)

Could you build a robot to do it? You're not an artist.

 

[ZiprHead]

I’m sure the lawyer got a cake. Just not from Bigot Bakery.

Nobody has addressed my idea of letting a baker bill themself as an artist...

It's not what you bill yourself as, it's what you actually do.

Creative processes to make a one-of-a-kind object: You're an artist. (Yes, this means in a sense computer programmers are artists. It's just our medium is very different and our products are sold differently.)

Could you build a robot to do it? You're not an artist.

AI recreates the painting techniques of famous artists

 

[cycomiko]

couldn't they just say it was for a "gender reveal" party and the baker would've never known?

 

[TomC]

couldn't they just say it was for a "gender reveal" party and the baker would've never known?

I've tried to make this point more than once.
Scardina didn't want the cake. She could easily have ordered it and gotten that.
What she wanted was a pretext for a frivolous lawsuit. So she insisted on telling the bakery staff that this wasn't about their product, it was about her assault on their belief system.

Personally, I'd classify that as hate speech. As a lawyer who is trans she can do that, and probably get paid well for doing so.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

couldn't they just say it was for a "gender reveal" party and the baker would've never known?

I've tried to make this point more than once.
Scardina didn't want the cake. She could easily have ordered it and gotten that.
What she wanted was a pretext for a frivolous lawsuit. So she insisted on telling the bakery staff that this wasn't about their product, it was about her assault on their belief system.

Personally, I'd classify that as hate speech. As a lawyer who is trans she can do that, and probably get paid well for doing so.
Tom

You keep repeating this refrain about a "frivolous " lawsuit. From I can tell, Scardina wants to nail Phillips - which does not make the lawsuit frivolous. Moreover, if the lawsuit ends up getting a ruling by SCOTUS, then it will be a helpful lawsuit, regardless of decision by the SCOTUS.

 

[Metaphor]

couldn't they just say it was for a "gender reveal" party and the baker would've never known?

Getting the cake was never the point.

Scardina did not ask for a blue and pink cake. She asked for a blue and pink cake that symbolised her gender transition. She asked for that so that while Phillips was assembling that cake and piping that icing, he would know what he was being forced to do. Alternatively, if he refused, Scardina could (and did) use it as the inciting incident for her lawsuit.

 

[TomC]

couldn't they just say it was for a "gender reveal" party and the baker would've never known?

Getting the cake was never the point.

Scardina did not ask for a blue and pink cake. She asked for a blue and pink cake that symbolised her gender transition. She asked for that so that while Phillips was assembling that cake and piping that icing, he would know what he was being forced to do. Alternatively, if he refused, Scardina could (and did) use it as the inciting incident for her lawsuit.

Honestly, I can't imagine eating a cake made by someone you caused to hate you.

Deliberately.
You made sure that the baker knew that you hated them. Then demanded a pastry.

Scardina could have simply gotten the cake. Easy Peasy! But she didn't want that. She wanted to hate on someone she was more powerful over, because she's a politically correct lawyer and they're just a baker.

And she got her way.

Bitch

Tom

 

[untermensche]

couldn't they just say it was for a "gender reveal" party and the baker would've never known?

Getting the cake was never the point.

Scardina did not ask for a blue and pink cake. She asked for a blue and pink cake that symbolised her gender transition. She asked for that so that while Phillips was assembling that cake and piping that icing, he would know what he was being forced to do. Alternatively, if he refused, Scardina could (and did) use it as the inciting incident for her lawsuit.

The cook is forced to make that black customers pancakes.

Your talk of force is really masking the desire to discriminate at will.

 

[untermensche]

The baker has no reasonable objection to making the cake.

It is nothing but his ignorant delusions that gives him concern.

People should not have to face ignorant discrimination from deluded immoral assholes in the market.

 

[Elixir]

It's not what you bill yourself as, it's what you actually do

Wrong. You think you could tell Andy Warhol what to paint? Could you force a white supremacist poet to write a poem celebrating black culture, or gay culture, or ... Oh never mind;
you'll have a hard time even finding a right wing artist of any sort. Maybe you can dig up Ted Nugent and tell him what to play.

If you have an art gallery stocked with cakes you like to make, whether or not the art is ephemeral, your art is not subject to the commands of potential customers.
Open up a cake shop offering custom cakes made to order, and you may well be subject to customers' whims. At least some of them. I guess we shall find out whether celebration of gender transition is one of those things in that location. But in any event, declaring your shop a gallery should allow you to make your own decisions about whether to bake gender transition celebration - or any other theme - cakes.

Creative processes to make a one-of-a-kind object: You're an artist

That's meaningless. Slightly above the molecular level, all objects in the universe are unique.

 

[KeepTalking]

couldn't they just say it was for a "gender reveal" party and the baker would've never known?

Getting the cake was never the point.

Scardina did not ask for a blue and pink cake. She asked for a blue and pink cake that symbolised her gender transition. She asked for that so that while Phillips was assembling that cake and piping that icing, he would know what he was being forced to do. Alternatively, if he refused, Scardina could (and did) use it as the inciting incident for her lawsuit.

Honestly, I can't imagine eating a cake made by someone you caused to hate you.

Deliberately.
You made sure that the baker knew that you hated them. Then demanded a pastry.

Scardina could have simply gotten the cake. Easy Peasy! But she didn't want that. She wanted to hate on someone she was more powerful over, because she's a politically correct lawyer and they're just a baker.

And she got her way.

Bitch

Tom

It does not matter why she did it, but I will note you are being very uncharitable in assigning her motivation, though I suppose you could be right.

Do you think that the Woolworths Lunch Counter protestors really just wanted a cup of coffee? Do you think the marchers in Selma really just wanted to get to the other side of the bridge?

Regardless of whatever other motivation Scardina may have, at the very least she is pointing out injustice. Maybe she is just doing it so that the next transgender who wants to order a cake for their celebration, and lets it slip that it is for that purpose because they just didn't think to hide it, will not have to go through the heartbreak and humiliation that this baker would put them through.

 

[Elixir]

...the heartbreak and humiliation that this baker would put them through.

 

[Metaphor]

Honestly, I can't imagine eating a cake made by someone you caused to hate you.

Deliberately.
You made sure that the baker knew that you hated them. Then demanded a pastry.

Scardina could have simply gotten the cake. Easy Peasy! But she didn't want that. She wanted to hate on someone she was more powerful over, because she's a politically correct lawyer and they're just a baker.

And she got her way.

Bitch

Tom

It does not matter why she did it, but I will note you are being very uncharitable in assigning her motivation, though I suppose you could be right.

Do you think that the Woolworths Lunch Counter protestors really just wanted a cup of coffee? Do you think the marchers in Selma really just wanted to get to the other side of the bridge?

Regardless of whatever other motivation Scardina may have, at the very least she is pointing out injustice. Maybe she is just doing it so that the next transgender who wants to order a cake for their celebration, and lets it slip that it is for that purpose because they just didn't think to hide it, will not have to go through the heartbreak and humiliation that this baker would put them through.

Heartbreak and humiliation?

 

[untermensche]

It was certainly a targeted request.

It would have failed had the baker just reasonably served a respectable request from a customer.

 

[KeepTalking]

Honestly, I can't imagine eating a cake made by someone you caused to hate you.

Deliberately.
You made sure that the baker knew that you hated them. Then demanded a pastry.

Scardina could have simply gotten the cake. Easy Peasy! But she didn't want that. She wanted to hate on someone she was more powerful over, because she's a politically correct lawyer and they're just a baker.

And she got her way.

Bitch

Tom

It does not matter why she did it, but I will note you are being very uncharitable in assigning her motivation, though I suppose you could be right.

Do you think that the Woolworths Lunch Counter protestors really just wanted a cup of coffee? Do you think the marchers in Selma really just wanted to get to the other side of the bridge?

Regardless of whatever other motivation Scardina may have, at the very least she is pointing out injustice. Maybe she is just doing it so that the next transgender who wants to order a cake for their celebration, and lets it slip that it is for that purpose because they just didn't think to hide it, will not have to go through the heartbreak and humiliation that this baker would put them through.

Heartbreak and humiliation?

Why not? I guess it should all be puppy dogs and roses when someone discriminates against you.

 

[Elixir]

Heartbreak and humiliation?

Why not? I guess it should all be puppy dogs and roses when someone discriminates against you.

For their own sake, people should at least make a minimal effort to avoid experiencing heartbreak and humiliation through unnecessary exposure to scumbags.
Being refused a transition celebration cake is probably not in the top 100 ways that scumbags cause Scardina heartbreak and humiliation.
One can address some forms of scumbaggery with litigation and legislation, but that does nothing to eliminate the actual source of scumbaggery: scumbags.

</$.02>

 

[Metaphor]

Heartbreak and humiliation?

Why not? I guess it should all be puppy dogs and roses when someone discriminates against you.

Why not? If a single baker refusing to make your gender transition celebration cake and this breaks your heart and humiliates you, you don't need a gender transition celebration cake. You need psychological counselling to understand why the opinion of one complete stranger could break your heart and humiliate you, and you need to learn techniques to build psychological resilience, because your current level of resilience is not detectable.

Why not? Because for every Colorado baker who doesn't want to take your commission for a gender transition celebration cake, there will be another who will not only take your commission, but will specialise in baking gender transition celebration cakes. They'll probably give you a discount if you convey your heartbreak and humiliation suffered at the hands of a complete stranger who refused your commission.

Why not? Because if I went to a bakery that didn't want to bake a cake for my same-sex wedding, I would say 'oh, that's sad, I'll take my money elsewhere', and then I'd leave the shop and never shop with or think about the baker again.

 

[repoman]

Heartbreak and humiliation?

Why not? I guess it should all be puppy dogs and roses when someone discriminates against you.

For their own sake, people should at least make a minimal effort to avoid experiencing heartbreak and humiliation through unnecessary exposure to scumbags.
Being refused a transition celebration cake is probably not in the top 100 ways that scumbags cause Scardina heartbreak and humiliation.
One can address some forms of scumbaggery with litigation and legislation, but that does nothing to eliminate the actual source of scumbaggery: scumbags.

</$.02>

This is a group effect.

Applying legal, moral and social pressure that will have downstream effects later on.

Politicians, pastors and so on will not say the same things they have been saying.

What is the exact church going history of this baker? Who was his pastor and church friends? What sermons did he hear?

Will a pastor be as likely to give a sermon that if boiled down to an elevator pitch by one of his flock to a coworker get a good fraction of them fired?

"So my pastor, says that transgender people aren't real (from God) and they come from satanic forces in this fallen world"

EVERY example that stands up needs to be hammered down. This is only way to have final victory and safety for transgender people.


---------------------------------------------------------------


Some of us here are so autistically invidualistic that we forget that doing things as a group is really the only effective way that things happen.

Too much individualism is really fucking retarded and not how most of the world works and this is not just about religion.

 

[Jarhyn]

For their own sake, people should at least make a minimal effort to avoid experiencing heartbreak and humiliation through unnecessary exposure to scumbags.
Being refused a transition celebration cake is probably not in the top 100 ways that scumbags cause Scardina heartbreak and humiliation.
One can address some forms of scumbaggery with litigation and legislation, but that does nothing to eliminate the actual source of scumbaggery: scumbags.

</$.02>

This is a group effect.

Applying legal, moral and social pressure that will have downstream effects later on.

Politicians, pastors and so on will not say the same things they have been saying.

What is the exact church going history of this baker? Who was his pastor and church friends? What sermons did he hear?

Will a pastor be as likely to give a sermon that if boiled down to an elevator pitch by one of his flock to a coworker get a good fraction of them fired?

"So my pastor, says that transgender people aren't real (from God) and they come from satanic forces in this fallen world"

EVERY example that stands up needs to be hammered down. This is only way to have final victory and safety for transgender people.


---------------------------------------------------------------


Some of us here are so autistically invidualistic that we forget that doing things as a group is really the only effective way that things happen.

Too much individualism is really fucking retarded and not how most of the world works and this is not just about religion.

So, yes this but also fuck you? Don't be pinning that shit on us autistic people. We like everyone else are a spectrum. Some of us also exist on the shitheel spectrum, but to label it autistic is just not alright.

The rest of it, spot on.

I will note that you should probably follow through on methodology and spheres of decision-making that makes this uniform, who swings the hammer.

Because there are a lot of potential actors and vehicles to put to that responsibility onto, and not all are appropriate nor correct.

 

[Elixir]

For their own sake, people should at least make a minimal effort to avoid experiencing heartbreak and humiliation through unnecessary exposure to scumbags.
Being refused a transition celebration cake is probably not in the top 100 ways that scumbags cause Scardina heartbreak and humiliation.
One can address some forms of scumbaggery with litigation and legislation, but that does nothing to eliminate the actual source of scumbaggery: scumbags.

</$.02>

This is a group effect.

Applying legal, moral and social pressure that will have downstream effects later on.

Right. I just don't happen to believe that cakes are the - or even a - point upon which a lot of pressure can be put to good effect.