Should bakers be forced to make gender transition celebration cakes?

[Emily Lake]

None of that has any meaning to me. Total non sequitur.

This is about a cake with no message.

My argument is not that nothing has a message.

It is that a cake of ordinary shape with no letters or symbols on it has a message.

Talk to me about that if you want to address this issue.

You're dodging.

Are these completely devoid of messages?

 

[TomC]

None of that has any meaning to me. Total non sequitur.

This is about a cake with no message.

My argument is not that nothing has a message.

It is that a cake of ordinary shape with no letters or symbols on it has a message.

Talk to me about that if you want to address this issue.

You're dodging.

Are these completely devoid of messages?
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None so blind as those who will not see.
Tom

 

[untermensche]

The first cake is the American Heart Association saying go take a walk with some friends.

The second cake is of course celebrating the Peruvian labor movement.

The last cake has absolutely no message.

And I said "NO SYMBOLS".

 

[ZiprHead]

None of those cakes are like what was requested in the OP. Why do people think that cakes that aren't like the cake in the OP are applicable arguments?

What message do these cakes send?

 

[TomC]

The first cake is the American Heart Association saying go take a walk with some friends.

The second cake is of course celebrating the Peruvian labor movement.

The last cake has absolutely no message.

And I said "NO SYMBOLS".

None so blind as those who will not see.
Tom

 

[TomC]

None of those cakes are like what was requested in the OP. Why do people think that cakes that aren't like the cake in the OP are applicable arguments?

What message do these cakes send?

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Has anyone explained the message as clearly as Scardina explained the message of the pink and blue cake?

If not, then maybe there isn't one. If so, then there is.
Tom

 

[ZiprHead]

None of those cakes are like what was requested in the OP. Why do people think that cakes that aren't like the cake in the OP are applicable arguments?

What message do these cakes send?

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Has anyone explained the message as clearly as Scardina explained the message of the pink and blue cake?

If not, then maybe there isn't one. If so, then there is.
Tom

So the message was in the mind of the purchaser, not the cake itself.

 

[TomC]

None of those cakes are like what was requested in the OP. Why do people think that cakes that aren't like the cake in the OP are applicable arguments?

What message do these cakes send?

View attachment 34309
View attachment 34310
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Has anyone explained the message as clearly as Scardina explained the message of the pink and blue cake?

If not, then maybe there isn't one. If so, then there is.
Tom

So the message was in the mind of the purchaser, not the cake itself.

Until she started telling other people what the message was, yes.

After that, no.
Tom

 

[KeepTalking]

The last cake has absolutely no message.

Of course it does, the message is "some people will put anything on a cake".

 

[untermensche]

The first cake is the American Heart Association saying go take a walk with some friends.

The second cake is of course celebrating the Peruvian labor movement.

The last cake has absolutely no message.

And I said "NO SYMBOLS".

None so blind as those who will not see.
Tom

I know.

Some refuse to see my point is about a cake with no letters or symbols.

No matter how many times I say it.

 

[TomC]

The first cake is the American Heart Association saying go take a walk with some friends.

The second cake is of course celebrating the Peruvian labor movement.

The last cake has absolutely no message.

And I said "NO SYMBOLS".

None so blind as those who will not see.
Tom

I know.

Some refuse to see my point is about a cake with no letters or symbols.

No matter how many times I say it.

The point I'm getting is that you believe that your ideological bent shapes everyone else's reality. That we don't see messages unless they're spelled out in writing.
Nope.
Tom

 

[untermensche]

You can't wish a message into a cake of ordinary shape with no letters or symbols.

Pretending a cake has a message does not give it one.

 

[TomC]

You can't wish a message into a cake of ordinary shape with no letters or symbols.

Pretending a cake has a message does not give it one.

Scardina didn't pretend that the cake had no message. That's why all of this happened. Scardina did have a message and made sure the baker knew what it was.
Tom

 

[untermensche]

You can't wish a message into a cake of ordinary shape with no letters or symbols.

Pretending a cake has a message does not give it one.

Scardina didn't pretend that the cake had no message. That's why all of this happened. Scardina did have a message and made sure the baker knew what it was.
Tom

That's all Scardina did.

She pretended the cake had a message.

That does not by magic give it one.

This judge agreed.

 

[Emily Lake]

Then, you made up a bunch of stuff not worth even trying to debunk because it is so nonsensical when you put the puzzle pieces together.

You're just assuming that it's "made up"... why? Why are you dismissing it as invented? Have you even bothered to look a tiny bit to see if it might be true at all?

Here, I'll do your homework for you. Will you at least peruse the linked support, instead of just handwaving it away as somehow being "made up"?

It results in male-bodied people competing as women in the Olympics, despite the clear advantages of having a male body.

It results in male people, who have been raised and conditioned as men, with all of the advantages of being a man in society being acclaimed as the "highest paid female CEO" or the "funniest female comedian" or being placed on short-lists for "female authors" or taking a position as a "female representative" in politics.

It results in male bodied people, with no diagnosis and no medical treatment of any kind, being placed in shared cells with female prisoners.

It results in males - with intact genitalia - being granted spaces in female-only rape and domestic violence shelters as a right.


Transgender ideology replaces sex with 'gender identity', and then redefines homosexuality to be 'attraction to the same gender identity' rather than to the same sex.

It has hit lesbians especially hard, where they are told that they have 'genital fetishes' and are 'transphobes' because they don't want to consider transgender identified men as part of their sexual and romantic pool.

There are entire workshops out there for transgender identified men on how to overcome the "cotton ceiling" so they can work their way into the underwear of lesbians.

Publications and organizations that advertise themselves as for the "LGBT" community publish articles with tips for lesbians on how to have sexual interactions with the penises of transwomen.

There is a considerably higher proportion of black women in prison than there are white women in the US... so it is black women who face the risk of having their transgender cellmate rape and impregnate them because the justice system is taking the path of placing gender identity as a feeling above the reality of biological sex.

There is a significantly higher rate of rape and domestic violence in black and hispanic communities, and a much higher proportion of women of color make use of domestic violence and rape shelters than do white women.

 

[TomC]

You can't wish a message into a cake of ordinary shape with no letters or symbols.

Pretending a cake has a message does not give it one.

Scardina didn't pretend that the cake had no message. That's why all of this happened. Scardina did have a message and made sure the baker knew what it was.
Tom

That's all Scardina did.

She pretended the cake had a message.

That does not by magic give it one.

This judge agreed.

No, the judge agreed that Scardina's message was more protected than Phillips' message, "I don't want to be involved in trans celebration parties."
Tom

 

[untermensche]

That's all Scardina did.

She pretended the cake had a message.

That does not by magic give it one.

This judge agreed.

No, the judge agreed that Scardina's message was more protected than Phillips' message, "I don't want to be involved in trans celebration parties."
Tom

That's not what happened.

The judge made the easy call.

Pretending a cake with no message has one does not give the cake a message.

A message is more than somebody looking at something and pretending it has a message.

She actually said it was a birthday cake and she wanted to celebrate her transition on her birthday.

So the baker was told it was a birthday cake.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Then, you made up a bunch of stuff not worth even trying to debunk because it is so nonsensical when you put the puzzle pieces together.

You're just assuming that it's "made up"... why? Why are you dismissing it as invented? Have you even bothered to look a tiny bit to see if it might be true at all?

Here, I'll do your homework for you. Will you at least peruse the linked support, instead of just handwaving it away as somehow being "made up"?

It results in male-bodied people competing as women in the Olympics, despite the clear advantages of having a male body.

It results in male people, who have been raised and conditioned as men, with all of the advantages of being a man in society being acclaimed as the "highest paid female CEO" or the "funniest female comedian" or being placed on short-lists for "female authors" or taking a position as a "female representative" in politics.

It results in male bodied people, with no diagnosis and no medical treatment of any kind, being placed in shared cells with female prisoners.

It results in males - with intact genitalia - being granted spaces in female-only rape and domestic violence shelters as a right.


Transgender ideology replaces sex with 'gender identity', and then redefines homosexuality to be 'attraction to the same gender identity' rather than to the same sex.

It has hit lesbians especially hard, where they are told that they have 'genital fetishes' and are 'transphobes' because they don't want to consider transgender identified men as part of their sexual and romantic pool.

There are entire workshops out there for transgender identified men on how to overcome the "cotton ceiling" so they can work their way into the underwear of lesbians.

Publications and organizations that advertise themselves as for the "LGBT" community publish articles with tips for lesbians on how to have sexual interactions with the penises of transwomen.

There is a considerably higher proportion of black women in prison than there are white women in the US... so it is black women who face the risk of having their transgender cellmate rape and impregnate them because the justice system is taking the path of placing gender identity as a feeling above the reality of biological sex.

There is a significantly higher rate of rape and domestic violence in black and hispanic communities, and a much higher proportion of women of color make use of domestic violence and rape shelters than do white women.

What a bunch of crap.

White males have a higher incidence of owning businesses and so decreasing liability is in their interest.

...the survey, put out in conjunction with the Ewing Marion Kauffman Foundation and the Minority Business Development Agency, painted an ownership picture that is still skewed largely to white males. Only 17.5 percent of businesses in operation in 2014 were minority owned, even though the bureau estimates that African-Americans, Latinos, Asians and other ethnicities account for more than 38 percent of the country's overall population.

According to your framework, all these "straight white males" in your out-group should be anti-trans by supporting the baker for their own interest.

Not everyone in your cherry-picked declared out-group is a straight white male. You don't even know people's sexual orientations because people don't announce them or want them to be public.
The ‘Global Closet’ is Huge—Vast Majority of World’s Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual Population Hide Orientation, YSPH Study Finds

Not to mention you claimed no one faced prejudice, discrimination or mistreatment, flat out bogus made-up stuff. You claimed your declared out-group was never discriminated against or mistreated. You were wrong:

In this thread, the people who have ACTUALLY faced discrimination, prejudice, and mistreatment are the ones DEFENDING the baker's right to his own conscience.

And here was your original thesis:

The most dedicated defenders of the first amendment - for EVERYONE - tend to be minorities, women, and other discriminated groups. The people most likely to see no harm in curtailing that most fundamental right are exactly those people who would be least affected by its loss.

Then, you were corrected with a big OOPS, because people told you your whole out-group were atheists who are discriminated against as well as non-white people, unknown sexual orientations except at least one that doesn't fit your narrative, different socio-economic backgrounds, different ethnicities including at least 1 person who is Jewish and unknown others, as well as a variety of ages, disabilities, and who knows what else. Jews, atheists, poor people, non-whites, and LGBTQ people are never discriminated against?!??? OOOOPS! So you changed your thesis around to make quickly constructed claims about ONLY THE SPECIFIC DEMOGRAPHIC GROUPS in your alleged in-group.

And keep adding lesbians to the mix.

There aren't any lesbians in your cherry-picked in-group! There are no lesbians here, but you keep bringing it up over and over in order to associate the gay men in the thread with an LGB group against the T part "ideology." Your secondary reasoning was that lesbians oppose the concept of having to like a gender as opposed to a biological sex. THIS IS EXACTLY THE SAME THING SOME STRAIGHT PEOPLE SAY ABOUT TRANS WOMEN OR MEN. It isn't different! Being against dating a trans person is ubiquitous among all demographics and actually LESBIANS ARE MORE OPEN TO IT, THAN OTHER GROUPS:

Virtually all heterosexuals excluded trans folks from their dating pool: only 1.8% of straight women and 3.3% of straight men chose a trans person of either binary gender. But most non-heterosexuals weren’t down for dating a trans person either, with only 11.5% of gay men and 29% of lesbians being trans-inclusive in their dating preferences. Bisexual/queer/nonbinary participants (these were all combined into one group) were most open to having a trans partner, but even among them, almost half (48%) did not select either ‘trans man’ or ‘trans woman.’

So now, you've reverted to an ad hoc ad hom "You don't care about lesbians!!!111one!" There aren't even any lesbians in the thread that you are trying DESPERATELY to make correlations out of!

Nor would it matter. CORRELATIONS OF DEMOGRAPHICS DON'T MATTER, ESPECIALLY IN SMALL DATASETS.

Meanwhile, minorities have a higher incidence of violence against trans people. This violence includes murder sometimes.

It wouldn't be fair to use correlations out of the violence rate to condemn minorities in this thread for being so anti-trans. Arguments should stand on their own, not predicted info based on the demographics of birth.

Here's an example of the kind of violence:

A group of women and men came into Kendall Stephens' home on Aug. 24 and beat her and called her transphobic slurs. They entered her home after she told them she was going to call police because they were outside on the street causing a large commotion.

If you review the video footage, you can see all the perpetrators are minorities.

Here is a photo of one of the people arrested:


It would not be fair to take this small dataset and draw conclusions from it about minorities being violent against trans persons and why.

What if, statistically, murder rates against trans people are higher for minorities? Are we supposed to use the "Emily Lake Framework," to beat all the minorities over the head in her declared in-group?

Basically the Emily Lake Framework turns out to be the Derec Framework, just by a different name.

Such bullshit.

 

[Emily Lake]

What a bunch of crap.

...

Such bullshit.

Got it. You didn't address a single one of the items I mentioned, didn't counter any of them, and are still handwaving away.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

What a bunch of crap.

...

Such bullshit.

Got it. You didn't address a single one of the items I mentioned, didn't counter any of them, and are still handwaving away.

Classic projection.