The horrible horrible world of sports

[Toni]

That's just moralism. Why does a guy who runs fast need to be decent? Can't he be an awful person? If the running fast isn't the important bit, then wtf is sports about? Is it just a morality play?

I don't understand how it's "just moralism". It's the way society works. We need it in order to coexist in a heterogeneous society where people have conflicting beliefs and ideas.

Everybody parroting the political correct things to say, for the sake of their career, is not a free society IMHO. Free speech is a society, IMHO, where people really can express whatever belief they have and people are cool with it.

To me what hit this home the most was moving to Denmark 5 years ago. A truly tolerant and free society. Here you can express whatever belief you want. Somebody can be a racist and express that, and it's fine. A racist and a black person can sit at the same table and enjoy a beer together and have a good time. They will make an effort to connect and both listen and respect each other.

When I first moved here I found the culture mind blowing. Coming from Sweden, I'd never experienced it. Sweden is on the other extreme of the spectra. Sweden is intolerant, moralistic and conservative. Since I've also been to Amsterdam. A very similar culture to Copenhagen. I've been told Singapore is similar. It's apparently a port city culture. International trading hubs have been so exposed to other cultures that they become extremely tolerant.

But it's dumb that all of the world isn't like this. It's so nice for everybody! It's an entire layer of stress and social backflipping that is done away with. There's less worry what people are really thinking. They just say it. There is no downside.

I'm sure this is the reason why Denmark and Amsterdam was so fast with legalising prostitution, drug use and gay marriage. Other people not being exactly like you, is less terrifying here. Xenophobia is much less. Because they're so tolerant.

You say that "it's the way society works". No, it's not. What you take as normal and natural is evidence of society being dysfunctional IMHO.

You really believe that it's nice for persons of color to hear racial epithets directed at them?

 

[Shadowy Man]

Everybody parroting the political correct things to say, for the sake of their career, is not a free society IMHO. Free speech is a society, IMHO, where people really can express whatever belief they have and people are cool with it.

To me what hit this home the most was moving to Denmark 5 years ago. A truly tolerant and free society. Here you can express whatever belief you want. Somebody can be a racist and express that, and it's fine. A racist and a black person can sit at the same table and enjoy a beer together and have a good time. They will make an effort to connect and both listen and respect each other.

When I first moved here I found the culture mind blowing. Coming from Sweden, I'd never experienced it. Sweden is on the other extreme of the spectra. Sweden is intolerant, moralistic and conservative. Since I've also been to Amsterdam. A very similar culture to Copenhagen. I've been told Singapore is similar. It's apparently a port city culture. International trading hubs have been so exposed to other cultures that they become extremely tolerant.

But it's dumb that all of the world isn't like this. It's so nice for everybody! It's an entire layer of stress and social backflipping that is done away with. There's less worry what people are really thinking. They just say it. There is no downside.

I'm sure this is the reason why Denmark and Amsterdam was so fast with legalising prostitution, drug use and gay marriage. Other people not being exactly like you, is less terrifying here. Xenophobia is much less. Because they're so tolerant.

You say that "it's the way society works". No, it's not. What you take as normal and natural is evidence of society being dysfunctional IMHO.

You really believe that it's nice for persons of color to hear racial epithets directed at them?

He’s not saying it’s nice. Just that it is nicer than racists feeling socially pressured to not openly insult people and keep their racists feelings all bottled up inside. Must be hard on those people.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Having said all this, I MIGHT agree with Dr. Z in some specific cases. (I like specifics, but this thread deals only with generalities.) All sentient Americans know that the N_____ word is verboten (except between two blacks). But what about mentioning that a young woman is pretty? Such an ordinary remark is verboten among the Super-PC set, yet still seems natural and relatively innocent to many ordinary people.

You are missing the point. It's SPORTS. Who gives a shit what an athlete thinks about anything? Who gives a rats ass if the guy who wins at long jump is a member of KKK? Or if the bronze medalist pole vaulter is a member of the Taleban? Or if the gold winner of badminton is open about their pedophilia? Or if the guy who does the schedules for the tennis tournament thinks beating your wife is morally ok because it says in the Bible?

How would any of that take away from their athletic performance or ability to organize a sports competition?

I just think that ideology has no place in sports. That's all I wanted to say with this thread. We don't have to police ideological purity ALL THE FUCKING TIME. It's reached a point where I think it's ridiculous and it needs to stop. And when we reach the point where we're rapping athletes on the knuckles for what they say, then it's gone too far, IMHO. They're not paid to think. They're paid to sport.

Zoid, respectfully, is it possible that YOU are missing the point? Have you noticed any very loud noises overhead that you couldn't figure out?

 

[bigfield]

That's just moralism. Why does a guy who runs fast need to be decent? Can't he be an awful person? If the running fast isn't the important bit, then wtf is sports about? Is it just a morality play?

I don't understand how it's "just moralism". It's the way society works. We need it in order to coexist in a heterogeneous society where people have conflicting beliefs and ideas.

Everybody parroting the political correct things to say, for the sake of their career, is not a free society IMHO. Free speech is a society, IMHO, where people really can express whatever belief they have and people are cool with it.

To me what hit this home the most was moving to Denmark 5 years ago. A truly tolerant and free society. Here you can express whatever belief you want. Somebody can be a racist and express that, and it's fine. A racist and a black person can sit at the same table and enjoy a beer together and have a good time. They will make an effort to connect and both listen and respect each other.

When I first moved here I found the culture mind blowing. Coming from Sweden, I'd never experienced it. Sweden is on the other extreme of the spectra. Sweden is intolerant, moralistic and conservative. Since I've also been to Amsterdam. A very similar culture to Copenhagen. I've been told Singapore is similar. It's apparently a port city culture. International trading hubs have been so exposed to other cultures that they become extremely tolerant.

But it's dumb that all of the world isn't like this. It's so nice for everybody! It's an entire layer of stress and social backflipping that is done away with. There's less worry what people are really thinking. They just say it. There is no downside.

The example of a "racist and a black person" listening and respecting each other seems a bit silly. Maybe I'm just getting the wrong idea, but I'm imaging the weirdest scenes, like the black person sitting there respectfully listening as the white guy explains how black people have lower IQs or something.

But despite your weird example, I do understand what you're getting at: There are a few large, cosmopolitan cities around the world where people are especially tolerant of people who are different than themselves. However, I don't think toleration and cosmopolitanism have anything to do with being able to "express whatever belief you want". In fact I think it's the opposite; you have to exercise restraint and be mindful of what other people consider to be polite, rude, fair etc. Because not everyone shares your way of thinking or your way of doing things.

One would expect that a tolerant society will have its share of intolerant idiots who, for one reason or another, haven't learned to be tolerant, themselves. You might think of them as a minority of free-loaders, enjoying the benefits of a tolerant society while doing nothing to contribute to it, or even actively trying to undermine it. Such a society exists because a majority of people are polite and respectful in public.

You say that "somebody can be a racist and express that, and it's fine," but it isn't, really. It's just tolerated.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Everybody parroting the political correct things to say, for the sake of their career, is not a free society IMHO. Free speech is a society, IMHO, where people really can express whatever belief they have and people are cool with it.

To me what hit this home the most was moving to Denmark 5 years ago. A truly tolerant and free society. Here you can express whatever belief you want. Somebody can be a racist and express that, and it's fine. A racist and a black person can sit at the same table and enjoy a beer together and have a good time. They will make an effort to connect and both listen and respect each other.

When I first moved here I found the culture mind blowing. Coming from Sweden, I'd never experienced it. Sweden is on the other extreme of the spectra. Sweden is intolerant, moralistic and conservative. Since I've also been to Amsterdam. A very similar culture to Copenhagen. I've been told Singapore is similar. It's apparently a port city culture. International trading hubs have been so exposed to other cultures that they become extremely tolerant.

But it's dumb that all of the world isn't like this. It's so nice for everybody! It's an entire layer of stress and social backflipping that is done away with. There's less worry what people are really thinking. They just say it. There is no downside.

I'm sure this is the reason why Denmark and Amsterdam was so fast with legalising prostitution, drug use and gay marriage. Other people not being exactly like you, is less terrifying here. Xenophobia is much less. Because they're so tolerant.

You say that "it's the way society works". No, it's not. What you take as normal and natural is evidence of society being dysfunctional IMHO.

You really believe that it's nice for persons of color to hear racial epithets directed at them?

He’s not saying it’s nice. Just that it is nicer than racists feeling socially pressured to not openly insult people and keep their racists feelings all bottled up inside. Must be hard on those people.

Sometimes people aren't nice, or behave in a way we'd like them to. It's the price we pay for freedom of expression.

We don't need to rearrange all society in order to prevent people from having their feelings hurt.

I am not defending racism or am trying to protect them. I just think that sometimes, in the heat of the moment, people might use colourful language without thinking how it lands.

I have many times said horrendous things, but in contexts where its been appreciated as obvious jokes. My sense of humour is highly inappropriate.

I don't think that makes me a racist

 

[DrZoidberg]

Everybody parroting the political correct things to say, for the sake of their career, is not a free society IMHO. Free speech is a society, IMHO, where people really can express whatever belief they have and people are cool with it.

To me what hit this home the most was moving to Denmark 5 years ago. A truly tolerant and free society. Here you can express whatever belief you want. Somebody can be a racist and express that, and it's fine. A racist and a black person can sit at the same table and enjoy a beer together and have a good time. They will make an effort to connect and both listen and respect each other.

When I first moved here I found the culture mind blowing. Coming from Sweden, I'd never experienced it. Sweden is on the other extreme of the spectra. Sweden is intolerant, moralistic and conservative. Since I've also been to Amsterdam. A very similar culture to Copenhagen. I've been told Singapore is similar. It's apparently a port city culture. International trading hubs have been so exposed to other cultures that they become extremely tolerant.

But it's dumb that all of the world isn't like this. It's so nice for everybody! It's an entire layer of stress and social backflipping that is done away with. There's less worry what people are really thinking. They just say it. There is no downside.

The example of a "racist and a black person" listening and respecting each other seems a bit silly. Maybe I'm just getting the wrong idea, but I'm imaging the weirdest scenes, like the black person sitting there respectfully listening as the white guy explains how black people have lower IQs or something.

But despite your weird example, I do understand what you're getting at: There are a few large, cosmopolitan cities around the world where people are especially tolerant of people who are different than themselves. However, I don't think toleration and cosmopolitanism have anything to do with being able to "express whatever belief you want". In fact I think it's the opposite; you have to exercise restraint and be mindful of what other people consider to be polite, rude, fair etc. Because not everyone shares your way of thinking or your way of doing things.

One would expect that a tolerant society will have its share of intolerant idiots who, for one reason or another, haven't learned to be tolerant, themselves. You might think of them as a minority of free-loaders, enjoying the benefits of a tolerant society while doing nothing to contribute to it, or even actively trying to undermine it. Such a society exists because a majority of people are polite and respectful in public.

You say that "somebody can be a racist and express that, and it's fine," but it isn't, really. It's just tolerated.

My example comes from a racist Danish rally where the leader of Denmark's biggest far right party was demonstrating. A black woman with a lesbian feminist tshirt comes up to him and they start talking. People in his crew hands them both beers. They're joking with eachother and clearly having fun. So Danish.

Or a colleague who had all manner of racist opinions turned out to have a Kurdish bestie. Also, so Danish.

In Denmark its just opinions. They respect that other people have their own beliefs. They praise the ability to not get offended and to have a laugh and connect with anyone. They don't seem to take politics so personally.

 

[Toni]

He’s not saying it’s nice. Just that it is nicer than racists feeling socially pressured to not openly insult people and keep their racists feelings all bottled up inside. Must be hard on those people.

Sometimes people aren't nice, or behave in a way we'd like them to. It's the price we pay for freedom of expression.

That price lands really hard on vulnerable minorities.

We don't need to rearrange all society in order to prevent people from having their feelings hurt.

Harm done by casual racist remarks is not limited to 'hurt feelings.' In fact, I doubt that most black people 'have their feelings hurt' by being subjected to racist language. I imagine it causes a lot of anger and fear of consequences if they express their anger, and also fear of, if racist language is tolerated, then what racist actions might also be tolerated.

I am not defending racism or am trying to protect them. I just think that sometimes, in the heat of the moment, people might use colourful language without thinking how it lands.

It certainly sounds as though you are defending racist language and suggesting that people just 'get over it' if they hear something offensive but are very protective of those who are criticized for using racist language who should not be expected to just get over it.

Yes, in the heat of the moment, sometimes people say things that are thoughtless or rude or unkind or horrendous. Some people would say that such utterances reveal how someone really feels deep down. I don't know about that nor do I much care. People are allowed to have whatever horrendous feelings and attitudes they want to have. They are not free to express them without consequence. Apologies go a long way to helping smooth over the situation but some deep soul searching is really necessary. Of course, there is no way to enforce that deep soul searching.

I have many times said horrendous things, but in contexts where its been appreciated as obvious jokes. My sense of humour is highly inappropriate.

I wonder if that is actually true or if your audience was merely more polite than you are and did not wish to cause a scene. Or maybe they thought you were a lost cause, like an old crazy uncle one tolerates at a family holiday gathering. Or maybe they agree with you that it is more important to share whatever thought, however ugly or offensive or unkind, than to consider whether those words reflect well upon the person uttering them. Obviously, such people do not give a rat's ass about other people's feelings.

I don't think that makes me a racist

I have no idea whether or not you are a racist or whether your are merely thoughtless in your speech and not inclined to inconvenience yourself enough to consider other people's feelings as important as your freedom to express your impulses. Or perhaps you just like a good story and are relating one now. I don't know.

I will say that I grew up where it was very common to use a number of phrases and words and terms that had some pretty awful racist meanings--many/most of which I did not realize in my youth. I will tell you this, though: Once I realized what certain terms really meant, I stopped using them, cold. Because ultimately, they did not express how I really felt or what I really believed. They were just lazy, ignorant habits that I picked up from those around me. When I knew better, I did better.

So can you.

 

[TSwizzle]

So, should spectators who chant monkey noises or throw bananas at black football players be tolerated? That should just be brushed off as banter by the black players ? Maybe they could even go for a pint together after the game and discuss!

These things actually happened at UK football matches and it was condemned in no uncertain terms. People caught doing such things were banned from all football stadiums. It still happens occasionally but no where near as often as it did back in the 80s/90s.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I still think it's bullshit that sponsors are sensitive about stuff like that. It says something about our culture. How we demand ideological purity, no matter if it makes sense or not

Sponsors are supporting the athletes. They do not want to be seen supporting positions that many of their customers will disagree with as the customers are likely to turn to an alternative when that happens.

I understand that. I just don't like it.

Sponsorship is about associating the company's name with a positive image. If people don't see the athlete as a positive image the sponsors will dry up.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I understand that. I just don't like it.

Sponsorship is about associating the company's name with a positive image. If people don't see the athlete as a positive image the sponsors will dry up.

And that's because business is business, assuming sponsors wish to turn a profit and appeal to the widest possible clientele. In theory I could sponsor the local KKK but I would be excluding a very large part of my potential market. Not very smart business.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Having said all this, I MIGHT agree with Dr. Z in some specific cases. (I like specifics, but this thread deals only with generalities.) All sentient Americans know that the N_____ word is verboten (except between two blacks). But what about mentioning that a young woman is pretty? Such an ordinary remark is verboten among the Super-PC set, yet still seems natural and relatively innocent to many ordinary people.

You are missing the point. It's SPORTS. Who gives a shit what an athlete thinks about anything? Who gives a rats ass if the guy who wins at long jump is a member of KKK? Or if the bronze medalist pole vaulter is a member of the Taleban? Or if the gold winner of badminton is open about their pedophilia? Or if the guy who does the schedules for the tennis tournament thinks beating your wife is morally ok because it says in the Bible?

How would any of that take away from their athletic performance or ability to organize a sports competition?

I just think that ideology has no place in sports. That's all I wanted to say with this thread. We don't have to police ideological purity ALL THE FUCKING TIME. It's reached a point where I think it's ridiculous and it needs to stop. And when we reach the point where we're rapping athletes on the knuckles for what they say, then it's gone too far, IMHO. They're not paid to think. They're paid to sport.

Zoid, respectfully, is it possible that YOU are missing the point? Have you noticed any very loud noises overhead that you couldn't figure out?

Perhaps. I don't see the benefit of virtuous theatrics. I haven't seen anybody defend that. Instead arguments are based on that it should be obvious to anyone. When all the evidence suggests that it's not. The arguments against me need to be improved for me to reconsider.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I understand that. I just don't like it.

Sponsorship is about associating the company's name with a positive image. If people don't see the athlete as a positive image the sponsors will dry up.

That's again completely missing my point. Just repeating the same thing over and over won't change my mind.

I think this way of thinking is intellectual and cultural poison

 

[DrZoidberg]

So, should spectators who chant monkey noises or throw bananas at black football players be tolerated? That should just be brushed off as banter by the black players ? Maybe they could even go for a pint together after the game and discuss!

These things actually happened at UK football matches and it was condemned in no uncertain terms. People caught doing such things were banned from all football stadiums. It still happens occasionally but no where near as often as it did back in the 80s/90s.

Has it changed because of the condemnations or because society has changed, and people have less of those opinions today?

I think the world is less racist today.

 

[bigfield]

Everybody parroting the political correct things to say, for the sake of their career, is not a free society IMHO. Free speech is a society, IMHO, where people really can express whatever belief they have and people are cool with it.

To me what hit this home the most was moving to Denmark 5 years ago. A truly tolerant and free society. Here you can express whatever belief you want. Somebody can be a racist and express that, and it's fine. A racist and a black person can sit at the same table and enjoy a beer together and have a good time. They will make an effort to connect and both listen and respect each other.

When I first moved here I found the culture mind blowing. Coming from Sweden, I'd never experienced it. Sweden is on the other extreme of the spectra. Sweden is intolerant, moralistic and conservative. Since I've also been to Amsterdam. A very similar culture to Copenhagen. I've been told Singapore is similar. It's apparently a port city culture. International trading hubs have been so exposed to other cultures that they become extremely tolerant.

But it's dumb that all of the world isn't like this. It's so nice for everybody! It's an entire layer of stress and social backflipping that is done away with. There's less worry what people are really thinking. They just say it. There is no downside.

The example of a "racist and a black person" listening and respecting each other seems a bit silly. Maybe I'm just getting the wrong idea, but I'm imaging the weirdest scenes, like the black person sitting there respectfully listening as the white guy explains how black people have lower IQs or something.

But despite your weird example, I do understand what you're getting at: There are a few large, cosmopolitan cities around the world where people are especially tolerant of people who are different than themselves. However, I don't think toleration and cosmopolitanism have anything to do with being able to "express whatever belief you want". In fact I think it's the opposite; you have to exercise restraint and be mindful of what other people consider to be polite, rude, fair etc. Because not everyone shares your way of thinking or your way of doing things.

One would expect that a tolerant society will have its share of intolerant idiots who, for one reason or another, haven't learned to be tolerant, themselves. You might think of them as a minority of free-loaders, enjoying the benefits of a tolerant society while doing nothing to contribute to it, or even actively trying to undermine it. Such a society exists because a majority of people are polite and respectful in public.

You say that "somebody can be a racist and express that, and it's fine," but it isn't, really. It's just tolerated.

My example comes from a racist Danish rally where the leader of Denmark's biggest far right party was demonstrating. A black woman with a lesbian feminist tshirt comes up to him and they start talking. People in his crew hands them both beers. They're joking with eachother and clearly having fun. So Danish.

Or a colleague who had all manner of racist opinions turned out to have a Kurdish bestie. Also, so Danish.

In Denmark its just opinions. They respect that other people have their own beliefs. They praise the ability to not get offended and to have a laugh and connect with anyone. They don't seem to take politics so personally.

I'm sorry, but it still seems like a silly story to me, even though you've explained that the racist in your story is actually a veteran politician at a political rally. I thought you were trying to make a point about the way normal Danish people behave. The story about the racist with the ethnic friend is just cringe-worthy. I mean, come on.

Interestingly, I did a few quick searches for most diverse cities in the world/Europe and didn't find a website willing to give Copenhagen a mention.

 

[Toni]

My example comes from a racist Danish rally where the leader of Denmark's biggest far right party was demonstrating. A black woman with a lesbian feminist tshirt comes up to him and they start talking. People in his crew hands them both beers. They're joking with eachother and clearly having fun. So Danish.

Or a colleague who had all manner of racist opinions turned out to have a Kurdish bestie. Also, so Danish.

In Denmark its just opinions. They respect that other people have their own beliefs. They praise the ability to not get offended and to have a laugh and connect with anyone. They don't seem to take politics so personally.

I'm sorry, but it still seems like a silly story to me, even though you've explained that the racist in your story is actually a veteran politician at a political rally. I thought you were trying to make a point about the way normal Danish people behave. The story about the racist with the ethnic friend is just cringe-worthy. I mean, come on.

Interestingly, I did a few quick searches for most diverse cities in the world/Europe and didn't find a website willing to give Copenhagen a mention.

Between his second and third marriages, my racist bigot father (whom I loved very dearly and who, otherwise was a really good person) was living in a divorced men's apartment complex. I think he was startled that his next door neighbor was a black man. But he assured me that he was a really nice guy and he liked him. He did refrain from using any ugly racial epithets although whether it was because he liked the guy next door and recognized some greater shared humanity, or he had grown as a human being in his single state or whether he just knew that I wasn't going to have it, I don't know. I do know that he had black colleagues at work, from time to time and his working relationship with them was good enough that he received expected promotions and bonuses. And when my mother was hospitalized long term during their marriage, he was as respectful and appreciative of the black nurses as he was of the white ones. So, yeah, he knew how to behave when he needed to.

Spoiler alert: his changed world view reverted at some point during his third marriage. By then he had retired and was safely ensconced in a pretty white world.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Zoid, respectfully, is it possible that YOU are missing the point? Have you noticed any very loud noises overhead that you couldn't figure out?

Perhaps. I don't see the benefit of virtuous theatrics. I haven't seen anybody defend that. Instead arguments are based on that it should be obvious to anyone. When all the evidence suggests that it's not. The arguments against me need to be improved for me to reconsider.

Okay, I want to understand your position.

Many of us are parents, raised families, we're grandparents, we raised kids. Are you advocating that I tell my five-year-old who is playing T-ball that it's okay to tell Sammy he's just a dumb nigger boy while you're playing the game? But that when the game is over it's improper and unacceptable to refer to him with racist comments.

Also, if someone calls you a Spook or a Gook or a Coon because your parents are black and asian, take it all with a smile while you're up to bat. It's all in the game. But when the game is over these are insults and cannot be accepted.

Is that your position?

 

[DrZoidberg]

My example comes from a racist Danish rally where the leader of Denmark's biggest far right party was demonstrating. A black woman with a lesbian feminist tshirt comes up to him and they start talking. People in his crew hands them both beers. They're joking with eachother and clearly having fun. So Danish.

Or a colleague who had all manner of racist opinions turned out to have a Kurdish bestie. Also, so Danish.

In Denmark its just opinions. They respect that other people have their own beliefs. They praise the ability to not get offended and to have a laugh and connect with anyone. They don't seem to take politics so personally.

I'm sorry, but it still seems like a silly story to me, even though you've explained that the racist in your story is actually a veteran politician at a political rally. I thought you were trying to make a point about the way normal Danish people behave. The story about the racist with the ethnic friend is just cringe-worthy. I mean, come on.

Interestingly, I did a few quick searches for most diverse cities in the world/Europe and didn't find a website willing to give Copenhagen a mention.

Ethnic diversity is NOT the same thing as tolerance. The left today like using it as a proxy for tolerance, but it's false. It's rather the opposite. And holding it up as a virtue is actually racist and intolerant.

Racism is simply the belief that races have inherent traits and that there's a ranking between them. I can think that Arabs are more likely to be violent than whites (a racist opinion) and still maintain friendships with Arabs who I think are as peaceful as whites. This was just an example. It isn't my real opinion. My point is that racism can be compatible with openness towards other races and ethnicities. This is the racism of my colleague. He was in general a very open, tolerant and liberal kind of guy. He just also is a racist.

USA has an ever widening deep divide between left and right. Denmark is just shades of grey.

Danes are really good at bridging ideological divides and finding common ground, in spite of differences. As a Swede, it's a beautiful thing to behold. They're really cool about disagreeing.

 

[TSwizzle]

So, should spectators who chant monkey noises or throw bananas at black football players be tolerated? That should just be brushed off as banter by the black players ? Maybe they could even go for a pint together after the game and discuss!

These things actually happened at UK football matches and it was condemned in no uncertain terms. People caught doing such things were banned from all football stadiums. It still happens occasionally but no where near as often as it did back in the 80s/90s.

Has it changed because of the condemnations or because society has changed, and people have less of those opinions today?

"monkey chants" and "throwing bananas" are not opinions, they are actions. But this is where it leads to when you don't have filters.

I think the world is less racist today.

Yes, I think it is less racist. Or is it simply people keep their bigoted thoughts to themselves ?

For the most part I agree with much of what you say but you have been ambiguous when people have tried to pin you down. But it doesn't really matter, in polite society and public arenas there are certain blurry lines that cannot be crossed whether it be racist comments, "homophobic", sexist or whatever. I gave an earlier example of a black football player calling another black football player a "choc ice", black on the outside, white on the inside. He was originally investigated for racism. These types of comments I don't get as racism. But you have still failed to bring up an example or incident of what you are actually referring to. Who exactly are you talking about ?

 

[Toni]

"monkey chants" and "throwing bananas" are not opinions, they are actions. But this is where it leads to when you don't have filters.

I think the world is less racist today.

Yes, I think it is less racist. Or is it simply people keep their bigoted thoughts to themselves ?

For the most part I agree with much of what you say but you have been ambiguous when people have tried to pin you down. But it doesn't really matter, in polite society and public arenas there are certain blurry lines that cannot be crossed whether it be racist comments, "homophobic", sexist or whatever. I gave an earlier example of a black football player calling another black football player a "choc ice", black on the outside, white on the inside. He was originally investigated for racism. These types of comments I don't get as racism. But you have still failed to bring up an example or incident of what you are actually referring to. Who exactly are you talking about ?

Actually, he was reprimanded for bringing the game into disrepute. Soccer is more civilized in that respect compared with American football.

From my post #38:

Also from the article you linked:

But it was ruled the centre-half had brought the game into disrepute.

"The commission found that the breach included a reference to ethnic origin, colour or race," read an FA statement.

Ferdinand was also warned as to his future conduct. Manchester United have decided not to appeal against the decision.

The United defender tweeted: "I hear you fella! Choc ice is classic hahahahahaha!!" in response to a message from @carltonEbanks which stated: "Looks like Ashley Cole's going to be their choc ice. Then again he's always been a sell out. Shame on him."

The term relates to the black and white nature of a choc ice and can imply someone is being black on the outside and white on the inside.

The tweet appeared on Ferdinand's timeline after Chelsea and England left-back Cole appeared in court as a defence witness for team-mate John Terry, who was cleared of racially abusing Ferdinand's younger brother, Anton, in a game against QPR on 23 October last year.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I understand that. I just don't like it.

Sponsorship is about associating the company's name with a positive image. If people don't see the athlete as a positive image the sponsors will dry up.

That's again completely missing my point. Just repeating the same thing over and over won't change my mind.

I think this way of thinking is intellectual and cultural poison

Do you think sponsorship is about altruism??