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What, exactly, is CRT?

I don't think you are correct. I think we can infer it.

What is the "it"?

If loads of people go and see the same movie and we ask them what they thought about it and why. We will get a large variety of answers. We can use that as evidence that truth is subjective, without making an objectively true statement about it. Because we are also admitting that me asking the question is also subjective.

I am sorry, I do not understand what you are trying to say here. I can make a dozen objectively true statements about a film and the truth of those statements does not need corroboration. For example, if somebody asked me "is the film you just saw your favourite film of all time?", and I could give you an answer that is true.

I think you're trying too hard to be clever. I don't think your logic works.

I'm not trying to be clever, nor did I independently produce that criticism of postmodernism. Far greater minds than mine did.

I should say that these are philosophical tools. Philosophical schools are models of thinking about reality. Different tools are good for different things. They all have iffy axioms we need to just accept to be able to use them. This is the iffy axiom of postmodernism. But they all have problems.

While I think there is a place for postmodern philosophy and it has a use in some domains I don't think it's a good school of thought for life in general. Just because it's so relativizing and subjective. It doesn't matter if it's true or not, it's passivizing. Whatever philosophical school you follow pick one that activates you, makes you work on yourself, not blame your problems on others and makes you give a shit about the people around you. And that will be different depending on what stage of life you're in.

The philosopher I keep coming back to is Nietzsche. If you have a go at him I'm in a much better place to defend myself, than if you have a go at postmodernism.

I'm not trying to 'have a go' at random philosophers, but I do like to have my thinking in order.
 
I am sorry, I do not understand what you are trying to say here. I can make a dozen objectively true statements about a film and the truth of those statements does not need corroboration. For example, if somebody asked me "is the film you just saw your favourite film of all time?", and I could give you an answer that is true.

I think you are trying way too hard to be clever. It's not working out for you.

You're like a guy talking with a famous painter and telling them their paintings would be better if they tried mixing colours. Postmodern philosophers have thought about it already. Probably more than you have. The problem isn't with postmodern philosophers. It's with their fanclub. Who think they are saying more than they are.

I'm not saying I think their logic is watertight. But I think you are dismissing the entire project for a silly reason.

But your critique is the reason why conclusions using CRT aren't as useful than if we'd let's say, used a pragmatic or analytic philosophical approach to figuring out if something is racist or not.

But from there, leap to that it's all bullshit, I think, is a bit of a stretch.
 
I think you are trying way too hard to be clever. It's not working out for you.

And I've told you I'm not trying to be anything except clear-thinking.

You're like a guy talking with a famous painter and telling them their paintings would be better if they tried mixing colours. Postmodern philosophers have thought about it already. Probably more than you have. The problem isn't with postmodern philosophers. It's with their fanclub. Who think they are saying more than they are.

I'm not saying I think their logic is watertight. But I think you are dismissing the entire project for a silly reason.

But your critique is the reason why conclusions using CRT aren't as useful than if we'd let's say, used a pragmatic or analytic philosophical approach to figuring out if something is racist or not.

But from there, leap to that it's all bullshit, I think, is a bit of a stretch.

I reject the postmodern understanding of epistemology as incoherent. If that makes the entire enterprise incoherent, well, that's the postmodernist's problem. If Camille Paglia has no time for it, then neither do I.
 
A Wikipedia article?

Not to mention one about a "divisive" political topic which is likely to see fierce politicized edits frequently.

Well, I don't have any huge problems with the wikipedia article aside the "both sides" ethos that characterizes that platform, but I don't see what there is to discuss about it exactly. It does not endorse the conservative conspiracy theory about what CRT is.

I don't know if this is moving the goal posts, or bait and switch, or motte and bailey or what. So I'll just sum it up with a narrative:

Poli: Everybody is talking about stupid right wing bullshit, nobody is talking about actual real CRT as presented by the founders of that framework.

Me & Dr. Z: Here's links to stuff that is actually about actual for-realsies CRT, the basic tenets of it, and how it is applied in a legal framework, as well as some thoughts about why this approach is inappropriate for direct teaching to primary schools students. Here's also some information and discussion about how the legal framework has been bastardized and skewed by dumb people, and how that is being brought into schools in a way that creates division, and why that's a bad idea.

Poli: I don't see what that has to do with the conservative conspiracy theory about what CRT is
 
The problem isn't with postmodern philosophers. It's with their fanclub. Who think they are saying more than they are.

Okay, yes, I can get behind this.

To be fair, I think postmodern philosophy is just as much wankery as nihilism and solipsism. But in a limited philosophical context, they're just fine. It's when they get out of their box and people start thinking that they are applicable to the real world in any way at all that things break down really fast and become utter lunacy.
 
"Ethnic Studies" -- Whazzat?

Does everyone agree at least that CRT and Ethnic Studies are virtually the same thing? And so it's incorrect to say CRT is not being taught in schools. It's just that it's called "Ethnic Studies" rather than Critical Race Theory.

New California law now requiring "Ethnic Studies" be imposed in all public schools and made mandatory for graduation:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/newsom-signs-ab101-requiring-ethnic-studies-all-california-students

Although "Ethnic Studies" may not be officially imposed in all the public schools, it is partly, and is increasing, and is taught in most colleges -- not just in law schools.

If there is a difference between CRT and Ethnic Studies, what is the difference?

Doesn't "Ethnic Studies" mean the study of Non-White people? No? If it does not mean that, then couldn't a school have classes in White Studies, teaching the achievements of Whites, and call that "Ethnic Studies" just as classes in Native American or Black or Latino culture are "Ethnic Studies"?
 
I still think that in this thread for the supporters of CRT, CRT seems to be equated with good, and any opposition is necessarily racist and evil. I see no more nuanced argumentation.

Yup, the sort of thing I have called a religious position. Any disagreement with the core faith is treated as blasphemy.

Now, most of the opposition truly is from racists, but that doesn't mean all of it is.

In the same way that a bullet fired from a gun is not a gun? True, but irrelevant to the conversation?

:confused::confused::confused:
 
In the same way that a bullet fired from a gun is not a gun? True, but irrelevant to the conversation?

:confused::confused::confused:

"I think that in this thread for the supporters of evolution, evolution seems to be equated with truth, and any opposition is necessarily ignorant and wrong. I see no more nuanced argumentation"

You can paint any factual thing in such a frame, and it will look like religion to the religious. Various posters have laid out the models by which poverty echoes as a wave through time, and does so in such a way as to do continual injury to the society it happens in. It outlines ways to cancel those waves that do this injury.

It is not relevant to the conversation that at least one side of a debate thinks they are right and that they may argue that certain stakes ride on their solutions being taken seriously, some of which may be an issue of ethics. This is the default position, especially as regards politics. To then pretend that this is not the case and spin it as an evil thing to have a model upon which may ride high stakes, is silly.
 
Does everyone agree at least that CRT and Ethnic Studies are virtually the same thing? And so it's incorrect to say CRT is not being taught in schools. It's just that it's called "Ethnic Studies" rather than Critical Race Theory.

New California law now requiring "Ethnic Studies" be imposed in all public schools and made mandatory for graduation:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/newsom-signs-ab101-requiring-ethnic-studies-all-california-students

Although "Ethnic Studies" may not be officially imposed in all the public schools, it is partly, and is increasing, and is taught in most colleges -- not just in law schools.

If there is a difference between CRT and Ethnic Studies, what is the difference?

Doesn't "Ethnic Studies" mean the study of Non-White people? No? If it does not mean that, then couldn't a school have classes in White Studies, teaching the achievements of Whites, and call that "Ethnic Studies" just as classes in Native American or Black or Latino culture are "Ethnic Studies"?

What do they even have to do with one another? :confused:

Ethnic Studies preceded CRT by quite a margin, it can't possibly be an manifestation of it.
 
No it doesn't. That's exactly wrong. It posits that objective reality cannot be known.
That's a distinction without a difference.

There are only interpretations. It posits that our subjective experience is always filtered through layers of biases and power dynamics. This is pretty uncontroversial.

To the extent that it is uncontroversial it is also trivial. Sure. We can't know objective reality fully because our models built by our brains with inputs from our senses. Ok. But that does not mean that "there are only interpretations" (or metanarratives). And it certainly does not mean we should give up trying to understand reality better and instead care how models of reality serve political interests (even if that leads to us understanding reality less). PoMo is a regression relative to modernism. PoMo also in this point bears a striking similarity to Alvin Plantiga's argument against naturalism (except PoMo has no deus ex machina).

This is the underpinning realization of science and the scientific method. The whole point of the scientific method is to minimize the influence of power politics upon the research.
Not just power politics and other cultural detritus but also limitation of our cognitive apparatus, yes.
But PoMo is not about this at all. It does not seek to minimize influence of power politics at all. Quite the contrary! If all metanarratives or "ways of knowing" are postulated to be equivalent, then there is no reason not to chose one that best fits your political views.

The way postmodernist critical analysis works is that we reverse the narrative.
Exactly. And that means they don't really care about getting a better understanding of reality but to serve a particular political point of view such as Marxism or radical feminism.

Instead of seeing the world from the perspective of the powerful, we see it from another perspective.

But that is a rotten way to try to understand reality. It only works if you assume that the predominant model of reality has no correlation with the actual reality, so you might as well flip it.

But is that at all a realistic assumption? It obviously isn't. "Perspective of the powerful" is not an arbitrary perspective. It could be accepted by the "powerful" because it proves a better model than the previous one. Even the Catholic Church had to accept the heliocentric model pretty quickly (for the times) because of the evidence for it. It could also be that the powerful become powerful because they have a better model. Having a better understanding how reality works means a competitive advantage. That's why scientific models became dominant and other so-called "ways of knowing" (like making shit up by the campfire) fell by the wayside. Pretending that science is just dominant because it is an arbitrary "perspective of the powerful" and that therefore we might as well reverse it is idiotic. As is stuff like saying that math is racist because there is a right and wrong answer and that the use of math by Western societies is inherently imperialistic but Babylonian Empire using math is not because they were not European or white.

It's only pseudo intellectual in the hands of somebody who doesn't realize what they're doing.
Are there any PoMos who know they are doing though? The whole PoMo enterprise is "a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

If the normal narrative is biased towards the view of the powerful, the critical analysis view will be similarly biased towards whatever group we are focusing. If we're studying victims of racism we will necessarily see more racism than what's really there. It's just how the method works.
And if the "normal narrative" says that 2+2=4 or that E=mc2 then surely we get that 2+2=5 and E=mv2 ∀ v≠c. That's just how the method works. Reversing for the sake of being contrarian is stupid.

And what we absolutely should NOT do is take the results from CRT as objective truth. Which is something done very often on forums like this :)
So what's the point of teaching it is schools. I will tell you. It is the same as point of all PoMo - leftist politics.

Yes, I agree there is a lot of PoMo pseudointellectual nonsense out there. You won't get any argument from me. But that's not how we read philosophy. In philosophy we ignore the dumb shit. We only focus on the greatest hits. The fact that any of it is useful at all is a point in it's favour.
What do you consider some of the "greatest hits" of PoMo?


I don't think that's an original sin. I think that's it's virtue.
I do not think it is a virtue at all.

If we don't we risk only seeing things from the perspective of the powerful or educated. Ie, the way history has been written since the dawn of writing. Historically we have a huge blind spot when it comes to the life of normal people. You know... the ones that really matter in society.
Well considering lives of "normal people" has some utility if your subject is history. But not to the extent of reversing everything and declaring that only the common uneducated masses matter. Even in history it should be about expanding the focus to improve the models, not kneejerk dismissal of anything in the present models.
This also does not translate well into areas other than history, ethnography and similar. How is focusing on uneducated masses or say indigenous hunters and gathers of Papua New Guinea going to give us any insight on physics or chemistry? It can't.

The people who actually make the world work and who give the powerful the power with which they have been able to do all their cool things. The point of Marxist analysis is to fix this.
I have not seen Marxist analysis fix anything. Or do you have any examples? And by Marxist I mean the economic/political system advocated by Marx and Engels, not just any random notion Karl Marx wrote anywhere.

It's easy to forget just how warped and fucked the way we used to read history was. Today we're so schooled in Marxist analysis of history that we take it for granted as true and aren't even aware of that it is Marxist analysis that we're doing. He introduced the mind blowing newfangled idea that we are more likely to believe things if there's monetary gain from believing it. Today it's blindingly obvious to anyone who has ever seen advertising.
I do not know if Marx originated that idea (note that while most PoMos are political Marxists, Marx himself lived well before postmodernism) but it does seem obvious to an extent. The mistake one may be tempted to make is then to assume that belief in a proposition, or even likelihood that a proposition will lead to profit, has no bearing to reality, that it's just "metanarratives".
But of course, having a better understanding of reality tends to be profitable in that it allows one to develop better products or processes. Understanding of reality is the difference, in the extreme, between real planes and airfields on one side and cargo cults on the other! PoMo is a latter day cargo cult.

I think it's a cultural historical artifact. A trend. Patriarchal oppression and racism was a serious problem for women and blacks half a century ago and we lacked philosophical tools with which to see things from their perspective. Enter PoMo. And the world changed. That's undeniable. So postmodern critical analysis hasn't been worthless.
I think it has been worse than worthless. It has been harmful, as it has led to radicalization of academia. CRT or notions that "math is racist" are the result.
Sure, discrimination against women and blacks had to be tackled but it was done in the worst possible way.

The problem now is that the success of Marxist analysis has gone overboard. The success of the feminist and civil rights movements have now gone to the heads of some of its defenders and it's too often become stupid. But that's not the problem of the foundational theory. That's a problem of the people using it.
The foundational theory is deeply flawed in that it assumes that all "metanarratives" are just mental masturbation and that narratives should be reversed to benefit the "oppressed". Well, a reversal is what they got! It is the flaw of the "foundational theory".
 
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It’s all grift.

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This Huffington Post article on how hip-hop king R. Kelly got away with serial rape for thirty years, challenges the notion that blacks and whites are treated equally in "post-racial" America.
It’s been proven time and time again that people don’t listen to Black girls — not just anecdotally, but statistically. Society couples that adultification with oversexualization and strips Black girls of their agency early: By age five, Black girls are seen as more adult than their white counterparts. This leads Black girls to being among the most susceptible to sexual violence, second only to Indigenous girls. As many as six in 10 Black women report being subjected to coercive sexual contact before age 18, according to a report from TIME’S UP. The National Center for Violence Against Women in the Black Community also reports that 40% of sex trafficking survivors are Black.

When people treat Black girls as adults, they’re less likely to listen to Black girls’ accusations or look for them when they go missing. The cases of missing Black girls often go ignored and underreported in the media. (In 2020 alone, more than 70,000 Black girls under 18 went missing.)
 
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