Wartime draft vs vaccine mandate

[Brian63]

Mandates versus drafts

What are the relevant similarities and differences between the scenarios of a military draft and a vaccine mandate:

Military draft:
A country that is attacked by an identifiable foreign enemy and requires an immediate and sizable military enhancement will impose a draft on its citizens. Unless you are granted certain exemptions, then you are required to fight. That may involve you being moved to a faraway land, and unable to see your loved ones for extended periods of time. Your life is in danger because others will deliberately try to end it.

Vaccine mandate:
A local culture or even the entire globe is under a severe threat. We have available various means to weaken that threat. None of them require uplifting yourself and traveling to distant parts of the planet on a long term basis. Instead you can travel just a few miles to your nearby pharmacy to greatly assist. The vaccine itself is for most people very safe, cheap, effective. It often has very mild and short-term side effects that diminish in mere days. Nobody is trying to kill you either, there is overall great shared benefit if we participate.

In what way would it make sense for anyone to defend a military draft, but oppose a vaccine mandate? If anything, the reverse makes a lot of sense. I am not aware of a human that is taking that former position---just thinking about the connections between the two possibilities.

 

[Brian63]

Draft-dodgers are roundly condemned in our American culture. But when it comes to avoiding getting a mere vaccination, the justification is used of "my body, my choice". Why does that not apply to draft-dodgers too?

 

[Metaphor]

Draft-dodgers are roundly condemned in our American culture. But when it comes to avoiding getting a mere vaccination, the justification is used of "my body, my choice". Why does that not apply to draft-dodgers too?

The draft is the forced labour of a select group of a country's citizens (almost always younger ones and almost exclusively male). Vaccine mandates are a forced medical procedure on people who do not want it.

Now, if you are saying 'there should not be a draft, nor should there be a vaccine mandate', I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Draft-dodgers are roundly condemned in our American culture. But when it comes to avoiding getting a mere vaccination, the justification is used of "my body, my choice". Why does that not apply to draft-dodgers too?

The draft is the forced labour of a select group of a country's citizens (almost always younger ones and almost exclusively male). Vaccine mandates are a forced medical procedure on people who do not want it.

Now, if you are saying 'there should not be a draft, nor should there be a vaccine mandate', I wholeheartedly agree.

I don't know if "forced vaccine" is correct. It's more that vaccine's are required if you want to be around others. We're trying to protect people. It's just like you can't work in a machine shop unless you wear safety glasses and ear protection. Your child can't attend grade school unless she's vaccinated for polio and others. When you drive, you have to obey the laws. You don't have the right to practice medicine unless you have a valid medical certification. I could go on and on. But COVID isn't any different from all the other rules that we live by in order to have a better community. If people don't want the vaccine, fine, just stay home and quit spreading your germs to others.

 

[Brian63]

This is where it becomes subjective, actually intersubjective given all the different players involved. Is a vaccine a forced medical procedure? Yes. We seem to have settled into the idea of doing that already though with historically mandated vaccines to combat smallpox, for instance. So why are so many conservatives accepting of mandating vaccines for some medical illnesses, but cry foul when it comes to COVID in particular? Don't their slogans of "personal freedom" and "my body, my choice" also apply to flu vaccines too?

 

[Politesse]

Mandates versus drafts

What are the relevant similarities and differences between the scenarios of a military draft and a vaccine mandate:

Military draft:
A country that is attacked by an identifiable foreign enemy and requires an immediate and sizable military enhancement will impose a draft on its citizens. Unless you are granted certain exemptions, then you are required to fight. That may involve you being moved to a faraway land, and unable to see your loved ones for extended periods of time. Your life is in danger because others will deliberately try to end it.

Vaccine mandate:
A local culture or even the entire globe is under a severe threat. We have available various means to weaken that threat. None of them require uplifting yourself and traveling to distant parts of the planet on a long term basis. Instead you can travel just a few miles to your nearby pharmacy to greatly assist. The vaccine itself is for most people very safe, cheap, effective. It often has very mild and short-term side effects that diminish in mere days. Nobody is trying to kill you either, there is overall great shared benefit if we participate.

In what way would it make sense for anyone to defend a military draft, but oppose a vaccine mandate? If anything, the reverse makes a lot of sense. I am not aware of a human that is taking that former position---just thinking about the connections between the two possibilities.

Refusing the draft is a crime in and of itself, whereas refusing to vaccinate only results in the revocation of certain defined special privileges.

We seem to have settled into the idea of doing that already though with historically mandated vaccines to combat smallpox, for instance. So why are so many conservatives accepting of mandating vaccines for some medical illnesses, but cry foul when it comes to COVID in particular? Don't their slogans of "personal freedom" and "my body, my choice" also apply to flu vaccines too?

Idiots protested those measures as well, but in those days the police and courts for the most part understood that their duty was to the wellbeing of the nation as a whole more than to the political views of any one constituent, and voluntarily enforced the law as written. I note that laws concerning the smallpox vaccination were more severe than anything we see today. Although it still wasn't technically a forced vaccination, it was deemed legal to fine citizens who refused, and many polities did so.

 

[Toni]

I will agree that there should be no vaccine mandate for the following categories of people:

1) Those who are medically unable to safely be vaccinated.
2) Those who choose not to voluntarily be vaccinated also agree to remain confined in their home, along with all other household members, and to only work remotely and to only make purchases, etc. online, with contactless delivery options. That way they avoid infecting those who are medically unable to be vaccinated. This isolation should be enforced. Those choosing this option are required to maintain their finances in such a way that they are able to keep current on mortgage/rent, all other periodic bills and not be a financial burden on society.

No exceptions.

It should be noted that drafts were only instituted for situations when there were an insufficient number of volunteers for positions which needed filling. The reason that there has been no draft for women in the US is that there were sufficient female volunteers to fill positions open to female military personnel.

 

[Politesse]

I will agree that there should be no vaccine mandate for the following categories of people:

1) Those who are medically unable to safely be vaccinated.
2) Those who choose not to voluntarily be vaccinated also agree to remain confined in their home, along with all other household members, and to only work remotely and to only make purchases, etc. online, with contactless delivery options. That way they avoid infecting those who are medically unable to be vaccinated. This isolation should be enforced. Those choosing this option are required to maintain their finances in such a way that they are able to keep current on mortgage/rent, all other periodic bills and not be a financial burden on society.

No exceptions.

It should be noted that drafts were only instituted for situations when there were an insufficient number of volunteers for positions which needed filling. The reason that there has been no draft for women in the US is that there were sufficient female volunteers to fill positions open to female military personnel.

The draft is only exercised in emergency situations; the draft is a legal reality and requirement for all 18-25 year old male citizens, at all times.

 

[Toni]

I will agree that there should be no vaccine mandate for the following categories of people:

1) Those who are medically unable to safely be vaccinated.
2) Those who choose not to voluntarily be vaccinated also agree to remain confined in their home, along with all other household members, and to only work remotely and to only make purchases, etc. online, with contactless delivery options. That way they avoid infecting those who are medically unable to be vaccinated. This isolation should be enforced. Those choosing this option are required to maintain their finances in such a way that they are able to keep current on mortgage/rent, all other periodic bills and not be a financial burden on society.

No exceptions.

It should be noted that drafts were only instituted for situations when there were an insufficient number of volunteers for positions which needed filling. The reason that there has been no draft for women in the US is that there were sufficient female volunteers to fill positions open to female military personnel.

The draft is only exercised in emergency situations; the draft is a legal reality and requirement for all 18-25 year old male citizens, at all times.

The Viet Nam war was not an emergency. Neither was Korea.

REGISTERING for the draft is a legal requirement for all 18-25 year old male citizens but being drafted is not. Even during war time, there are ways to avoid being drafted. My grandfather was not drafted in WWI because his father had died and my grandfather's labor was required to run the family farm as his next oldest brother was a small child. My father was not drafted in Korea because he was married and had kids. One of the largest expansions of our post secondary educational system happened because of two things: 1)vets taking advantage of educational benefits awarded to vets and 2) college aged males taking advantage of deferred draft for students. Obviously, some are physically unable to serve in the military and some are able to receive deferments due to religious grounds. I'm sure I'm leaving out some things.

 

[Metaphor]

I don't know if "forced vaccine" is correct. It's more that vaccine's are required if you want to be around others.

Almost nobody (I think) is condoning the kidnapping of people to be strapped to a gurney and forcibly injected with a COVID-19 vaccine (thought Toni did imply her sympathy to such a scenario once, if I recall correctly). What the government is proposing is that it is going to make your life unlivable and impractical and wretched if you refuse the vaccine. You can't go to work and earn an income. You can't go out to buy groceries. You can't travel. You can't see vaccinated people. You can't go to a hospital for lifesaving treatment (at least one hospital has refused to perform transplant surgery on an unvaccinated patient).

Now, with the ratcheting of the vaccine mandate, the only thing left might really be 'you are not permitted to leave your residence for any reason'. The government could even forbid people delivering groceries to you, because of the risk you pose.

Note that in December 2020, Joe Biden said he was against vaccine mandates. How hearts and minds have changed since he got into power.

We're trying to protect people.

So is the draft. But more importantly, you're trying to protect people who are vaccinated (who already have greatly reduced chances of getting the virus, and greatly reduced chance of getting very sick and dying from it).

Nor is it science-based. Having had coronavirus and surviving it provides immunity at least as good as the vaccine, but that will not count as being vaccinated.

It's just like you can't work in a machine shop unless you wear safety glasses and ear protection. Your child can't attend grade school unless she's vaccinated for polio and others. When you drive, you have to obey the laws. You don't have the right to practice medicine unless you have a valid medical certification. I could go on and on. But COVID isn't any different from all the other rules that we live by in order to have a better community. If people don't want the vaccine, fine, just stay home and quit spreading your germs to others.

It is amazing that you appear to believe unvaccinated people automatically have coronavirus (and have it permanently, presumably?) Indeed, vaccination might change the odds on people who have coronavirus and do not know it. Since it greatly reduces the symptoms of having it.

Nor, I assume, would you be willing to give an inch. If a supermarket opened up that openly said 'we are agnostic to your vaccination status and our staff is aware of this' - would you allow that? That way the vaccinated can avoid it if it is so important to them.

 

[Metaphor]

I will agree that there should be no vaccine mandate for the following categories of people:

1) Those who are medically unable to safely be vaccinated.
2) Those who choose not to voluntarily be vaccinated also agree to remain confined in their home, along with all other household members, and to only work remotely and to only make purchases, etc. online, with contactless delivery options. That way they avoid infecting those who are medically unable to be vaccinated. This isolation should be enforced. Those choosing this option are required to maintain their finances in such a way that they are able to keep current on mortgage/rent, all other periodic bills and not be a financial burden on society.

No exceptions.

Forever?

Also: the other household members also cannot leave the home? Forever?

 

[Metaphor]

Remember that time the Taliban didn't let women leave the house without a male escort, and if you couldn't procure one you could just starve to death?

Good times.

 

[Metaphor]

I will agree that there should be no vaccine mandate for the following categories of people:

1) Those who are medically unable to safely be vaccinated.
2) Those who choose not to voluntarily be vaccinated also agree to remain confined in their home, along with all other household members, and to only work remotely and to only make purchases, etc. online, with contactless delivery options. That way they avoid infecting those who are medically unable to be vaccinated. This isolation should be enforced. Those choosing this option are required to maintain their finances in such a way that they are able to keep current on mortgage/rent, all other periodic bills and not be a financial burden on society.

No exceptions.

It should be noted that drafts were only instituted for situations when there were an insufficient number of volunteers for positions which needed filling. The reason that there has been no draft for women in the US is that there were sufficient female volunteers to fill positions open to female military personnel.

The draft is only exercised in emergency situations; the draft is a legal reality and requirement for all 18-25 year old male citizens, at all times.

The Viet Nam war was not an emergency. Neither was Korea.

REGISTERING for the draft is a legal requirement for all 18-25 year old male citizens but being drafted is not. Even during war time, there are ways to avoid being drafted. My grandfather was not drafted in WWI because his father had died and my grandfather's labor was required to run the family farm as his next oldest brother was a small child. My father was not drafted in Korea because he was married and had kids. One of the largest expansions of our post secondary educational system happened because of two things: 1)vets taking advantage of educational benefits awarded to vets and 2) college aged males taking advantage of deferred draft for students. Obviously, some are physically unable to serve in the military and some are able to receive deferments due to religious grounds. I'm sure I'm leaving out some things.

You are leaving out that the draft is immoral.

 

[Metaphor]

Refusing the draft is a crime in and of itself, whereas refusing to vaccinate only results in the revocation of certain defined special privileges.

Yes, the special privilege of not starving to death.

 

[Politesse]

Refusing the draft is a crime in and of itself, whereas refusing to vaccinate only results in the revocation of certain defined special privileges.

Yes, the special privilege of not starving to death.

I am not aware of any vaccine mandates that would outlaw eating.

 

[Metaphor]

Refusing the draft is a crime in and of itself, whereas refusing to vaccinate only results in the revocation of certain defined special privileges.

Yes, the special privilege of not starving to death.

I am not aware of any vaccine mandates that would outlaw eating.

No, the mandates wouldn't do anything so callous. They'd merely take away your ability to earn money and buy food.

 

[Politesse]

I am not aware of any vaccine mandates that would outlaw eating.

No, the mandates wouldn't do anything so callous. They'd merely take away your ability to earn money and buy food.

By this do you mean that a person can't work certain jobs or buy food in certain ways if they are unvaccinated? Most jobs and businesses do set some conditions on employment, and I don't think most people would desire to see that change.

 

[Metaphor]

I am not aware of any vaccine mandates that would outlaw eating.

No, the mandates wouldn't do anything so callous. They'd merely take away your ability to earn money and buy food.

By this do you mean that a person can't work certain jobs or buy food in certain ways if they are unvaccinated? Most jobs and businesses do set some conditions on employment, and I don't think most people would desire to see that change.

If Toni's version of the vaccine mandate was enforced, the government would prevent a person, and all her household members, from leaving their residence. Some jobs--in particular, the kind of upper-middle class jobs that the chattering class enjoys--can indeed be worked from home. But you can't rotate a tire or lay bricks or drive a bus or prepare food in an industrial kitchen from home.

It would be one thing if non-government workplaces decided for themselves if the great unvaxxed were allowed to work there, I suppose. But even then, it seems to me that the ordinary leftist sympathies go out the window--does it sound right to you that a corporation can tell you to get a medical procedure and if you do not get it, you're fired?

 

[Politesse]

If Toni's version of the vaccine mandate was enforced, the government would prevent a person, and all her household members, from leaving their residence. Some jobs--in particular, the kind of upper-middle class jobs that the chattering class enjoys--can indeed be worked from home. But you can't rotate a tire or lay bricks or drive a bus or prepare food in an industrial kitchen from home.

That does not correctly characterize any proposed vaccine mandates I've heard of in the United States.

It would be one thing if non-government workplaces decided for themselves if the great unvaxxed were allowed to work there, I suppose. But even then, it seems to me that the ordinary leftist sympathies go out the window--does it sound right to you that a corporation can tell you to get a medical procedure and if you do not get it, you're fired?

Well yes. As a college professor, I am already required to test for tuberculosis and vaccinate for influenza as a condition of employment. If coronavirus is added to that list it makes perfect sense to me, as it would be for the same reason - the nature of the disease is such that a person cannot know whether they infectious and therefore a danger to the student body, or not. A private business should absolutely be "allowed", possibly even required, to make reasonable concessions to the safety of the consumers who use their products.

 

[Toni]

I will agree that there should be no vaccine mandate for the following categories of people:

1) Those who are medically unable to safely be vaccinated.
2) Those who choose not to voluntarily be vaccinated also agree to remain confined in their home, along with all other household members, and to only work remotely and to only make purchases, etc. online, with contactless delivery options. That way they avoid infecting those who are medically unable to be vaccinated. This isolation should be enforced. Those choosing this option are required to maintain their finances in such a way that they are able to keep current on mortgage/rent, all other periodic bills and not be a financial burden on society.

No exceptions.

Forever?

Also: the other household members also cannot leave the home? Forever?

Until the pandemic passes.