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DISAPPOINTING JOBS REPORT is whose fault?

The current bad jobs numbers are the fault of:

  • Democrats/Biden, with their higher tax-and-spend policies.

    Votes: 1 33.3%
  • Republicans/Trumpsters, by opposing 3-4 trillion higher federal debt.

    Votes: 1 33.3%
  • Democrats/Republicans, by opposing admission of a million or so immigrants to fill the vacant jobs.

    Votes: 1 33.3%

  • Total voters
    3
The company I work for cannot get enough people and retain them. We are currently at least 60 people short. We have offered all sorts of incentives and bonuses. In the area where we operate there are "Now Hiring" signs everywhere.
It does seem weird out there, but there also seems to be a lot of business whining, cuz they don't have it easy. I find it kind of weird that it isn't ok in 'the free market' for employers to struggle, but who gives a fuck if employees have to suck it up and deal with shit...

"out there"? Just to be clear, I'm talking about our manufacturing positions in the Midwest, not California. Our operations are a in the rural parts of the country where the labor market is tight so we do offer competitive rates and bonuses.

2 antidotes: My son has worked at a place for 2 years now, kind of as a technical coordinator for work around the country. He has been trying to convince his managers, that he could quickly work his way up into a higher end IT position. They have spent about 2 months trying to find someone out of the box to work locally in the position. We still have our fingers crossed that his company will choose to allow him to train up...but why is it such a tug of war?

Internal politics? I am also in IT and there is a guy who works in another department who is very IT savvy but he's Excel scripting and programming stuff. I can't use these skills and he's wondering why he can't join the IT department. It's because we don't do programming/development, I can't use those skills. I need someone that can fix paper jams and change the fuser in a laser jet printer, hook up a monitor type of stuff.

I'm semi-retired, as I didn't want to work full time as my last IT job ended 3 years ago. So I do random gigs from a couple platforms, via my LLC, to largely pay for health care until I'm eligible for Medicare. I do mostly data center work, but I see the jobs for tons of other stuff that I don't care about. I see more tickets come by, but I'm not seeing much in the way of companies offering more pay per hour. There are some very standard repeat little jobs, that I can tell haven't increased in offered pay at all, from 2 years ago. This gig work is very much like a spot market for labor, yet where are the fucking increase in $$ per hour, if they are so fucking desperate? FWIW, I'm not bitching cuz I need the money. I'm fine, but I feel for the people trying to make a living this way.

I do too. It's awful. I have kids too that are trying to make their way and it's not going to be easy.
 
Wow. Nine stupid posts in a row, from the Oracle of Obtuseness.

I don't have the time right now, but I actually think there were some good points within all that volume...

May well be. I don’t waste my time with posters who promulgate obvious, verifiable falsehoods, even if there might be interspersed fact embedded in their preachery.
 
"out there"? Just to be clear, I'm talking about our manufacturing positions in the Midwest, not California. Our operations are a in the rural parts of the country where the labor market is tight so we do offer competitive rates and bonuses.
Out there across the country...obviously specifics will vary depending...

2 antidotes: My son has worked at a place for 2 years now, kind of as a technical coordinator for work around the country. He has been trying to convince his managers, that he could quickly work his way up into a higher end IT position. They have spent about 2 months trying to find someone out of the box to work locally in the position. We still have our fingers crossed that his company will choose to allow him to train up...but why is it such a tug of war?

Internal politics? I am also in IT and there is a guy who works in another department who is very IT savvy but he's Excel scripting and programming stuff. I can't use these skills and he's wondering why he can't join the IT department. It's because we don't do programming/development, I can't use those skills. I need someone that can fix paper jams and change the fuser in a laser jet printer, hook up a monitor type of stuff.
Not sure if it's internal politics or not. I spent 20 years in systems administration. 21 years ago a company spent over 40 grand to move me to them, so I would work for them. My son has the right degree, and I edited my post with a few more details...antidotes still...
 
Allowing more immigrant workers = more competition = economy functions better --

so even if there are hardships today (pandemic, etc.), a free economy which allows more immigration will better allow us to cope with it, whereas the restrictions only make bad conditions even worse.

(As long as immigrants are required to be vaccinated/tested.)



It's not that the jobs aren't there, but rather that there's a shortage of workers taking the jobs available. Maybe this is due mostly to the pandemic, which isn't over, and which is making employment less attractive.

Companies are even cutting back production for lack of needed workers. Who's to blame for this? And why basically is this bad?

What's wrong is not high unemployment, but that needed work is not getting done. There's a need for more truck drivers, dock workers at the ports, and some skilled workers like plumbers and electricians. Also firefighters, and many other kinds of workers -- but job-seekers are staying home rather than taking the jobs that are open.
https://nypost.com/2021/10/08/joe-biden-brushes-off-second-poor-jobs-report-in-row/

But the new report showed the US added just 194,000 jobs in September — far short of economists’ expectations of about 500,000.

The shortfall compounded a hiring slowdown in August, when the US added 366,000 jobs, according to revised figures released Friday — far below economists’ expectations of 720,000.

“President Biden is now a whopping 944,000 jobs short of what he promised from his last stimulus and worse, has lost the confidence of the American people to lead the economy.”

Rep. Markwayne Mullin (R-Okla.) said, “Over 300,000 FEWER jobs created than expected in September – further proof Biden’s economic policies are hurting our country.”

Brad McMillan, chief investment officer for Commonwealth Financial Network, explained the lower unemployment rate, noting that “the declines in the unemployment measures and the participation rate show that the movement of people back to the labor force has paused.”

Harvard economist Jason Fruman tweeted, “Job openings: 11.7m Unemployed: 7.7m The 1.5 openings per unemployed is the highest ever recorded.”

Unprecedented high-job-openings to number-of-unemployed ratio.


What's the solution?

Take in more immigrant workers!

There's obviously no shortage of potential workers.

Most of the vacant jobs could be filled, in a short time -- only 2 or 3 or 4 months -- by letting in an extra million immigrants who could take them. Only a few jobs are so high-skill that no immigrants could do them. Probably the whole problem would be solved in less than a year, if all the migrants needed would be taken in. And it would be easy to get all of them vaccinated, so that cannot be the obstacle.

So, what is the obstacle? Why can't Biden admit a half million or million migrants to take the jobs needing to be filled? Only because:

The American people are crybabies, who hate immigrants who might compete with them, and/or

they are crybaby-panderers who demand that companies pay workers more than their real competitive market value
and not be allowed to hire them at low labor cost which would make it profitable to hire them. Maybe the labor cost is higher now, for domestic workers, because of the pandemic. But the simple solution to that is to take in a half-million or million immigrants, to meet the labor shortfall.

But the fear is that immigrants will drive down the wage level or steal jobs from red-blooded Americans.

Which means basically that we're a nation of crybabies and crybaby-panderers. And Biden and Trump are among the crybaby-panderers, not essentially disagreeing with each other, but united in their leftist employer-bashing philosophy to pander to the crybabies who hate competition and insist that work has to be done only by high-paid red-blooded native-borns who are entitled to the American Dream no matter how much it costs and are unable to compete against the newcomers.

The economy -- 330 million Americans -- are suffering because of this.


So both Reds and Blues think it's better to let the economy suffer, let the production be lower, so less wealth is created, and so American consumers -- ALL Americans -- must have their living standard reduced, because of our need to pander to the crybabies who feel threatened by competition from immigrants.

What other reason could there be for not taking in enough migrants to fill the vacant jobs?

It’s a bit less that there’s a shortage of workers than it is that there’s a shortage of people willing to risk their lives for low wages.

Arguably it's both. So, what are the solutions? What would fix the problem of the shortages? When there are multiple causes of the problem, there are multiple solutions. One solution is to allow an increase in the labor supply = allow more immigrant workers. And make the existing immigrant labor force more safe and secure, easing the enforcement of current bad laws which hinder companies from acquiring the labor they need. Recognize the current reliance on immigrant labor and legalize it, or more of it. If we can't legalize all of it, we must move more toward legalization, to increase the immigrant labor as our need for it continues and increases.

The solution of higher wages and safer conditions also happen anyway within the free market system which encourages employers to do whatever can be done to make the business perform more efficiently. Employers do these improvements when they are cost-effective and don't impose damage onto consumers who must pay the higher costs. So that improvement happens anyway, automatically, when it's cost-effective.

But the problem of low labor supply is the fault of the government, interfering into the economy by restricting the natural flow of immigrants across the artificial national borders. This artificial intervention into the economy is an easy problem to correct, by just letting people be free as individuals to move, which is natural for them to do in pursuit of their survival, as our ancestors and all animals have been doing for millions of years as dictated by the natural environment.


Employers need to ensure that their employees are safe at work and that they are fairly compensated.

Those needs are met within the normal free market process which happens as cost-effectively as practical within the natural limits on the economy. The wage incomes and working conditions today are vastly improved over that of 100 years ago, and 200 and 300 years ago, as science has improved the conditions, and there will continue to be improvement farther into the future, as technology improves, and as employers and workers and consumers are left individually free to make their choices according to what serves their individual interests, and as government plays its proper role of enforcing the rules for general public safety and honest business practices, but not making private personal choices for individuals, such as dictating prices and terms of employment.


Yeah, Walmart, I’m talking to you and all retailers and food service as well.

You're entitled to your freedom to preach moralistically at anyone you think should behave more generously. But demanding that some have to show pity toward others is not what makes the economy function better. Workers who want better terms must be free as individuals to make their own choices, to seek alternative opportunities, without interfering with the freedom of other individuals, including poor job-seekers and consumers they serve, who also are seeking their own alternatives and opportunities.

The current tight labor market is an opportunity for some low-paid workers to seek better opportunities, without needing the government to do anything for them. But one thing we do need the government to do is get out of the way of the free market which needs more labor, by easing its artificial immigration restrictions, easing the enforcement, so the needed work can get done.

Government's positive role right now is to get it right as to the mandates, for vaccinations and masks, etc., and find the proper limit as to how far it should go in enforcement vs. allowing individual free choice.

But often the need is for LESS government, less restriction, like right now the need to ease the immigration restrictions -- less of this rather than more. The only increase in demands on immigrants should be requirements for vaccinations or testing, which should not meet with much resistance by immigrants wanting to enter. Except for this, the rules should be eased and more immigrants allowed, especially work visas. Americans opposed to this are not patriots, but crybabies or pseudopatriots pandering to crybabies who don't understand the value that competition contributes to the economy.


I’m all for sane and humane immigration policies but we . . .

"I'm for immigration, but . . ." here it comes -- get ready for the crybaby immigrant-bashing and employer-bashing:

. . .but we cannot let employers who wish to exploit immigrants by paying them poorly, not offering benefits . . .

No, this pseudopatriotic preaching does not improve the nation or the population generally. When the word "exploit" shoots out the mouth, you know it's Crybaby Economics on the way. "Exploit" means to use what's available, at low cost, in order to get the work done for the benefit of consumers who must pay the price for it -- and otherwise that production or service will not get done and consumers will be worse off. That the company makes a profit from it is what drives the production which otherwise would not get done. If the company is not supposed to gain anything from it, then the production won't get done and everyone is worse off, including that job-seeker who now has no job.

No one is made worse off when a worker gets "exploited" instead of having no job at all (or an even lower-paying job).

. . . and not improving poor working conditions drive immigration policy.

Making the country (or all consumers) better off is what must drive the policy, not pandering to this or that limited special interest group wanting to impose costs onto all the rest of us. Every worker always wants better working conditions. If no work is allowed until all imaginable working conditions are improved to everyone who wants them, then the economy must grind to a halt and no work can get done. That you have to get out of bed earlier is a "poor" working condition -- even possibly damaging to health, but some of those "poor" conditions are necessary in order for the needed work to get done. And in the future when new technology changes that, maybe some of those poor conditions will improve, as changes become cost-effective and profitable and beneficial to all.

The "working condition" (its being "poor") is a subjective attitude for each individual worker who must decide what is acceptable or what is poor, according to each one's individual taste and tolerance level. For government to interfere into this and banish immigrants who might have a different subjective taste or tolerance level makes no more sense than to interfere with domestic workers who might also have the wrong subjective attitude about the proper "working conditions" or other terms of employment. These are subjective judgments just as much as the choice of what shirt to wear or how to fix your hair or what music to listen to.

There is no way to efficiently regiment every workplace according to one standard of what are the proper "working conditions" for all. This has to be left open to the individual workers and employers who can locally make the detailed decisions on each point where there is conflict. To not allow this is to restrict production and make all consumers worse off. Artificially interfering with production in order to satisfy everyone's personal moral and subjective tastes can only make the whole economy worse and reduce the general living standard.


If the working conditions and compensation are not good enough for Americans, they aren’t good enough, period.

But they ARE good enough for Americans, just not enough of them to fill all the jobs needing to be done. Just because some Americans reject certain terms does not mean ALL Americans reject them. What is the judgment you have against those who do accept those terms? How do you judge that those Americans are somehow invalid as workers because they have a different subjective judgment of what is "poor"? What's wrong with the employer hiring Americans for whom the terms are good enough, but then saying "Why can't there be more workers than only these? Are there other potential workers like these who could also work for me at these terms, like these ones do?"

If you say "No, you must pay higher terms than this," then you're also saying that even their current workers are not legitimate, and that even the work already being done is invalid and should be stopped, so that even the current level of production is too high and should be reduced, and that the current standard of living in this country is too high, and we need a lower standard of living in order to eliminate what someone judges to be "poor" working conditions somewhere. And so therefore the whole country must suffer a reduced standard of living, by that reasoning. Any reasoning which arbitrarily excludes a class of workers, like immigrants, saying they are invalid because the terms are "poor" and thus unacceptable, also condemns the domestic work being done already, by similar workers, in similar working conditions, and so rejects the prosperity and higher living standard we have already achieved.

Whereas allowing in needed immigrant workers to fill the current need simply affirms the prosperity we've already created and serves to preserve this high living standard and increase it into the future, based on the good economic principles which have already proved successful. Of course there could be negative trends, like climate change, etc., which threaten our future living standard, but in that case increased immigration is a factor which can help salvage the current higher living standard, or help to salvage as much of it as possible in view of some changing negative trends we might not be able to prevent.


It isn’t being a crybaby to expect safe working conditions, reasonable and predictable work schedule and a liveable wage.

It's "crybaby" when your tantrum reaches the point where you must impose your personal subjective demands onto others instead of letting the other individuals make their own free choice. Interfering with another's choice to travel, to hire an outsider, a newcomer, because of the increased competition, is Crybaby Economics, whereas Grown-Up Economics is to make your own personal adjustments, to meet your personal demands, to get what you want as an individual producer, but still allowing everyone else to be equally free to make their own individual free choice. Including the choice for a lower hourly wage rather than no job at all, or the choice to travel, to migrate, to search for better opportunities, such as better employment opportunities, in an economy where you produce for the benefit of ALL consumers, because it's competitive and therefore requires you to perform better in order to increase your profit/income.

The difference is that "Crybaby Economics" means those who whine the loudest are the ones who prosper, whereas in "Grown-Up Economics" those who perform better are the ones who prosper, and the latter school of economics is the one which produces a better functioning economy for the benefit of all rather than only the benefit of the best and loudest whiners.


I’m fine with the govt. providing wage supports for small businesses and gradually tapering off as the employer reaches benchmark revenues and income and number of employees.

In theory perhaps, but today, with today's Blues and Reds ruining the country and the economy, there is no form of corporate welfare for the small businesses which can do anything but make it all worse. The Big Government lobbyists and demagogues would be the only winners.

And for immigration per se, the need is equally great, whether it's the small or large companies. For all of them there is an urgent need which could be met by allowing much higher numbers of immigrant workers, and the result would be a net gain for the whole economy, i.e., for all consumers = the whole population.


Walmart and Amazon and other behemoths can start paying taxes at a fair level and help subsidize rather than cannibalize small businesses.

It's not subsidies which small businesses need or want (except a few crybabies). What they need is to be left free to hire immigrants or anyone they can find willing to accept the terms, without interference from the government or pseudopatriotic moralists pretending to dictate to others what their choices ought to be.
 
Wow. Nine stupid posts in a row, from the Oracle of Obtuseness.

Yes, it was nine post in a row but the OP says a lot...which is a lot I do not agree with.

I am quite surprised actually that you agree with the libertarian political far right viewpoint of the OP and not mine. But in any case, state what I said that you actually disagree with so I might be convinced otherwise politically. Or in the case of obtuseness, what was obtuse?
 
Wow. Nine stupid posts in a row, from the Oracle of Obtuseness.

Yes, it was nine post in a row but the OP says a lot...which is a lot I do not agree with.

I am quite surprised actually that you agree with the libertarian political far right viewpoint of the OP and not mine. But in any case, state what I said that you actually disagree with so I might be convinced otherwise politically. Or in the case of obtuseness, what was obtuse?

I agree that you made some good points.
 
The difference is that "Crybaby Economics" means those who whine the loudest are the ones who prosper, whereas in "Grown-Up Economics" those who perform better are the ones who prosper, and the latter school of economics is the one which produces a better functioning economy for the benefit of all rather than only the benefit of the best and loudest whiners.


.
But the loudest crybaby whiners are clearly the corporations who have whined and paid off our government. They were the clear whiners who have been prospering until very recently.

It is a very rare thing to see labor finally reach the point where general laws of supply and demand can determine a fair wage during unfair labor arbitrage. But that is a good thing for the economy in general and middle class.
 
so even if there are hardships today (pandemic, etc.), a free economy which allows more immigration will better allow us to cope with it, whereas the restrictions only make bad conditions even worse.

(As long as immigrants are required to be vaccinated/tested.)
You write so much but never have anything to say about the cost of immigration and who has to pay those costs. And I'm not just talking about vaccinations either.

What about the costs to house and educate the immigrants and their future children? What about the costs to integrate them into our language and social customs? What about the costs born by natural citizens who can not afford their own families in this country because they are competing in the same market place of labor?

Who pays for those costs??? I'll tell you for sure who does not pay those costs...its the CEO's and top managers of those corporations!!!
 
A true free market becomes heavily restricted pretty quickly. We saw it with Standard Oil, then AT&T, and again AT&T (well, SBC) where economic options disappear. Money is like bad cholesterol. It attracts itself and then get lodged into places and no longer providing capital to the system. The first successful companies become bigger, and bigger companies have more capital, so they can starve off or buy off the competition. And then there is no one left. Facebook managed via going public, to get free cash to buy off any competition.

There's nothing wrong with the state trying to moderate the big players to make them more competitive, so the "free market" works better. We can never make the free market perfect, like perfectly competitive, but some steps can be taken to improve its performance. Higher levels of immigration -- especially allowing more immigrant workers -- can improve the free market so that it works better. More competition always makes the economy perform better.


The free market is like a Physics 101 book, where, ignoring the effects of wind resistance, friction, etc... what will the distance travelled be. It is an ideal economic state that is not attainable.

It's an ideal we should strive toward, for the measurable practical benefits to be gained from it. Just like we should pursue democracy and justice and prosperity and happiness and equality and human rights and welfare and crime prevention and health and accountability and education and truth and honesty, etc. etc. etc. Just because an ideal is not perfectly attainable does not mean we shouldn't strive toward it.
 
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Well, since it seems you've (Lumpy) munged up your quote in post #70, I haven't figured out the new and improved GUI...so a manual quote of the part I wanted to comment on...
So all the empty shelves and other results of less production must continue, as we're experiencing it, and also higher prices.
There isn't 'less production' causing empty shelves. Imports are at record levels, almost 10% higher than 2018-2019.

Ref: https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/imports
 
I have boycotted that poll, because its options align closely with Lumpenproletariat's beliefs, with no options for any others, not even "Other cause".
 

What's wrong with letting needed work get done?

The theory or premise or narrative is simple: Lots of work or needed production is not getting done, as we are hearing regularly on the Nightly News etc., which leads to shortages, empty shelves, higher prices, etc. At the same time immigrants are flocking to our southern border (asylum-seekers, etc., whatever you want to call them) in record numbers.

So, what is wrong with the idea that we should accept more immigrants who agree to take jobs, or more of them seeking work visas, etc., perhaps easing the restrictions, etc., to let more in, to get many of the jobs filled which are remaining vacant?

It's amazing what people say who are trying to find something wrong with such a simple idea. Surely we can all agree that these newcomers would have to be vaccinated and/or be tested, and maybe there are a few other qualifiers, but surely no reasonable person would be against such a simple obvious remedy (partial remedy) to an obvious problem.

And yet we're getting some asinine knee-jerk negative responses to this, which is unbelievable. The prejudice and immigrant-hate and bigotry is astounding. The best explanation for this nuttiness seems to be the false economics theories that somehow any worker who might accept a lower-wage job is somehow bad for the economy, because somehow there's a wages religion which says that we must never allow any possibility of any downward pressure on wages, of any kind whatever, even if the real wage level is rising while that downward push could have no effect other than to possibly slow down the wage rise by a small percentage.


So all the empty shelves and other results of less production must continue, as we're experiencing it, and also higher prices.

funinspace: There isn't 'less production' causing empty shelves.

How can someone say something so nutty? Every day on the news we're hearing of problems with empty shelves, of cargo not being loaded, of products not getting delivered, and jobs not getting done because of resignations, labor shortage, etc. How can anyone deny this?

The word "production" refers to all the work needed in order to get the products to the consumers. Any fool can see that this production has declined.

Imports are at record levels, almost 10% higher than 2018-2019.

Ref: https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/imports
Yes, maybe the foreign production is just as high, but much of those imports are sitting on boats in the harbor instead of being unloaded. There is a shortage of dockworkers and truckdrivers (and many other worker categories). Why couldn't some of those migrants (like half a million of them) be recruited to get some of this work done, unless you believe that immigrants are inferior creatures who could never learn to operate any machine or drive a truck or do any other needed work?

It appears there is some bias against letting this work be done by newcomers, and that some small-minded American pseudo-patriots would rather allow the standard of living to decrease than to admit any more of what they consider inferior polluted foreigners to steal jobs from red-blooded Americans.


(And as if all the above weren't bad enough, this new message posting format is an abomination. Whoever's responsible for this should be taken out and shot!)
 
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"cost of immigration"? What about the cost of those already here?

higher immigrant population -> lower overall average cost per person
so even if there are hardships today (pandemic, etc.), a free economy which allows more immigration will better allow us to cope with it, whereas the restrictions only make bad conditions even worse.

(As long as immigrants are required to be vaccinated/tested.)
You write so much but never have anything to say about the cost of immigration and who has to pay those costs. And I'm not just talking about vaccinations either.
The worst costs are the unnecessary warehousing costs, 90% of which could be eliminated if they would just admit in all those who have jobs lined up or could be hired, and all those who have families/relatives ready to take them in. Most of that warehousing cost is wasted, caused by those who insist on having the excess restrictions. In fact, the price paid by the immigrants themselves could be enough to pay most of that. Most of them already pay thousands of $$$$ to get here.

Once they are taken in and get employed, they contribute a higher share percentagewise to the economy than most of the lower-income domestic population. So for that cost, it's not really the "cost of immigration" per se, but just the cost of the low-income population in general, which on average is higher than the "immigration" cost. There's no way to calculate whether this cost (of maintaining a lower-income population) is worth it to society or if it is a net loss. If the immigration influx is a net loss, then that means the entire domestic lower-income class already is an even greater net loss. I.e., that the entire bottom half, or the bottom third of the population are a net loss overall and a parasitic burden on the whole society.

But it's probably not a net loss, because the middle-to-higher classes consume vastly more and so might be a net greater loss to society than the lower class. It's impossible to calculate how much the net loss or benefit is from this or that segment, but we can be sure that whatever it is, the ones already here (domestic higher-or-lower) are a greater overall cost burden on the system than the immigrant newcomers, who overall put less total net demand on the system.

It may be true that some subsidies to immigrants are excessive, but that could be ended, or the immigrants could be asked to pay a higher share upon their entry -- as they already do pay some costs.


What about the costs to house and educate the immigrants and their future children?
Overall it's less than the costs of housing and educating the lower classes already here. To say it's too high is to say that we are paying too much now to house and educate our existing lower classes.



What about the costs to integrate them into our language and social customs?
That also is less than similar costs we pay for those already here who have similar needs. It's questionable if there's a need to "integrate them into our language and social customs" -- whatever that means, some of it is artificial and unnecessary. And it's similar to other costs we pay already on the domestic or native-born population.



What about the costs born by natural citizens who can not afford their own families in this country because they are competing in the same market place of labor?
The additional competition is good for the population as a whole, even if not for certain uncompetitive ones who don't perform so well. The added pressure on us all to compete leads to improved overall performance and production, which in turn benefits 100% of consumers = the whole population.

To complain on behalf of the less competitive and demand that it's not fair for them to have to compete is the meaning of the term "Crybaby Economics" = bad for the country overall. Just as we're all better off because of competition from machines which replace humans, so also are we made better off because of any other competition which might replace someone less competitive by someone/something more competitive.

What's good for the whole country, 100% of the population, has to take priority over what's good for certain uncompetitive ones whose poor performance is a drain on all the rest.


Who pays for those costs???
Same ones who pay the costs for maintaining the bottom 1/2 or bottom 1/3 of the domestic population already costing the society even without any immigration. If the cost is too much, this is an argument for doing things more cost-efficiently, not for excluding a class of newcomers whose cost to society on average would be less than the cost we're already paying for the lower classes.

Things could be done better, costs reduced, benefits increased, etc. -- many possible remedies. But excluding a class which is overall more cost-efficient than the classes already here is not a remedy.


I'll tell you for sure who does not pay those costs...its the CEO's and top managers of those corporations!!!
Even more certain is that we all benefit from a more competitive economy which allows more production based on merit alone, and more producers, no matter who they are or where they're from. And we all lose by a system which excludes any competitors because of their identity or their origin or non-privileged status.
 
Do you have any actual numbers to back up anything you said above? You're very long on conjecture and very short on proof.
 
Is competition good for the economy, or is it not?
It is a very rare thing to see labor finally reach the point where general laws of supply and demand can determine a fair wage during unfair labor arbitrage.
Letting supply-and-demand set the wage level means allowing immigrant workers and foreign workers, including Chinese, to compete with higher-paid U.S. workers. Those who want to exclude the additional competition are the crybabies, because those higher-paid less competitive workers drive up the cost and make all the consumers worse, and this is exactly what a crybaby is -- one who increases his own gain by imposing costs onto everyone else. So the crybaby steel worker or auto worker, protected by trade barriers, gains a higher wage by imposing higher costs onto all consumers who must pay the higher prices. The crybabies are those who enrich themselves by making all the consumers worse off with higher prices, because of the reduced competition.

Do you have any actual numbers to back up anything you said above? You're very long on conjecture and very short on proof.
A competitive economy is NOT better? So then you're opposed to antitrust laws, which are based on the premise that a competitive economy is better? In Economics 1A and in all our economic policy it is a premise that more competition (to get lower price and improved production) is better for the economy, i.e., for everyone.

The burden of proof is on those who reject competition and would make production less competitive.

Suppose Biden (or Trump) dropped a nuke on Shanghai or wherever, in order to eliminate a few million of those Chinese workers who compete with American workers with their cheap labor. I have no numbers to prove that the result of that would be bad for the world economy. But it would probably be bad.

We can easily figure out what the result would be without "any actual numbers" to prove it. We know that more production and more competition produces a better result.

I have no "actual numbers" to prove that if all traffic lights were suddenly removed there would be a few traffic accidents as a result.
 
Is competition good for the economy, or is it not?
It is a very rare thing to see labor finally reach the point where general laws of supply and demand can determine a fair wage during unfair labor arbitrage.
Letting supply-and-demand set the wage level means allowing immigrant workers and foreign workers, including Chinese, to compete with higher-paid U.S. workers. Those who want to exclude the additional competition are the crybabies, because those higher-paid less competitive workers drive up the cost and make all the consumers worse, and this is exactly what a crybaby is -- one who increases his own gain by imposing costs onto everyone else. So the crybaby steel worker or auto worker, protected by trade barriers, gains a higher wage by imposing higher costs onto all consumers who must pay the higher prices. The crybabies are those who enrich themselves by making all the consumers worse off with higher prices, because of the reduced competition.

Do you have any actual numbers to back up anything you said above? You're very long on conjecture and very short on proof.
A competitive economy is NOT better? So then you're opposed to antitrust laws, which are based on the premise that a competitive economy is better? In Economics 1A and in all our economic policy it is a premise that more competition (to get lower price and improved production) is better for the economy, i.e., for everyone.

The burden of proof is on those who reject competition and would make production less competitive.

Suppose Biden (or Trump) dropped a nuke on Shanghai or wherever, in order to eliminate a few million of those Chinese workers who compete with American workers with their cheap labor. I have no numbers to prove that the result of that would be bad for the world economy. But it would probably be bad.

We can easily figure out what the result would be without "any actual numbers" to prove it. We know that more production and more competition produces a better result.

I have no "actual numbers" to prove that if all traffic lights were suddenly removed there would be a few traffic accidents as a result.
Dodging the question.
 
whining crybaby corporations and whining crybaby workers
The difference is that "Crybaby Economics" means those who whine the loudest are the ones who prosper, whereas in "Grown-Up Economics" those who perform better are the ones who prosper, and the latter school of economics is the one which produces a better functioning economy for the benefit of all rather than only the benefit of the best and loudest whiners.
But the loudest crybaby whiners are clearly the corporations who have whined and paid off our government.
RVonse: "But the loudest crybaby whiners are clearly the corporations who have whined and paid off our government." [This new format is so fucked up!]

Not ALL corporations, but yes, the steel companies, e.g., whined and gained protection against foreign competition, to drive up prices to consumers. Also the auto companies. Those are the best examples of such whining by corporations.

Especially where they are joined by the whining labor unions, working together with their whining capitalist employers, to gain protection against foreign competition which could do the same production at lower cost. The result is higher profit and wages to the crybaby companies/workers and higher prices consumers must pay.

(There are other examples of whining, such as corporate welfare, where a company is granted special privileges or subsidies in order to "create jobs" and other symbolism to make someone feel good, at a net cost to consumers or taxpayers. Including special subsidies to select alternative energy companies, to the exclusion of other companies offering competing alternative-energy products but not well-connected to those in power who grant the special privileges to the select few.)

The reason to call the privileged ones "crybabies" is that they demand benefits for themselves which all the rest of society has to pay for, so everyone else is made worse off in order to satisfy the selfish interests of the tiny elite protected class. You should make it clear what you mean when you use language like "crybaby" or "whining" -- it's not just name-calling, but refers to particular cases of narrow-interest benefit to a few which inflicts net cost onto everyone else. And it's encouraged by crybaby-panderers like Trump and Biden and Bernie Sanders, etc., and by their deluded mass of crusader zealot followers who have incorporated xenophobia, especially China-bashing, into their religious pseudo-patriotism.

And the exclusion of immigrant workers, even though they're needed in order to fill vacant jobs, is another form of Crybaby Economics, done to the detriment of all consumers who are thus under-served and forced to pay higher prices, but done to protect uncompetitive domestic workers who are perceived as threatened by competition from immigrants.
 
But the loudest crybaby whiners are clearly the corporations who have whined and paid off our government. They were the clear whiners who have been prospering until very recently.
They're still prospering -- e.g., the steel companies and auto companies are still prospering under Biden as they did under Trump, with more protectionism, because of their successful whining. Though it's true that the crybaby labor unions gained artificially higher wages (= higher cost of production and higher prices) in Trump's new North American trade terms, but the companies also gained increased crybaby protectionism against Asian and European competitors. So the whining crybabies are all doing just fine, still prospering, at everyone else's expense.


It is a very rare thing to see labor finally reach the point where general laws of supply and demand can determine a fair wage during unfair labor arbitrage.
The only "fair" wage or cost or price is that which is determined by competition, where ALL the producers are included and the market is open to all, without penalty against any producers who can offer the same output at lower cost. Supply-and-demand cannot determine anything "fair" as long as competition is being suppressed, such as Trump's (and Biden's) protectionism which is unfair to consumers.


But that is a good thing for the economy in general and middle class.
Only increased competition is good for the economy and all classes. Not Trump's xenophobia and China-bashing, or exclusion of immigrants or foreign labor, which Biden is mostly continuing, despite his rhetoric.

The current labor shortage is not a "good thing for the economy" but is hurting all consumers and thus the whole nation. Allowing more immigration and opening the market more to foreign competition would help to correct this and make the economy better for ALL classes.

Whereas protecting anyone rich or poor from having to compete, as demanded by labor unions and xenophobes and pseudo-patriots and immigrant-bashers, only makes the economy worse for all of us -- lower, middle and upper.
 
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