New "Affirmative Action" nonsense

[dismal]

I believe that intelligence and academic ability are not more heavily distributed among some ethnic and racial groups more than other groups.

What do you believe?

Well, good. Then schools can adopt race blind policies and everything should work out great.

These people who think some races need special treatment to succeed must drive you nuts.

 

[Toni]

I believe that intelligence and academic ability are not more heavily distributed among some ethnic and racial groups more than other groups.

What do you believe?

Well, good. Then schools can adopt race blind policies and everything should work out great.

These people who think some races need special treatment to succeed must drive

 

[AthenaAwakened]

We have tried race blind policies.

The race divide widened.

race got us into this mess. We can't ignore it and get out of it. It's like trying to cure a flu without looking at the virus.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I have no problem with additional languages being of value. Rural vs suburbs vs city has no value, though.

Really? Are you unaware that rural areas as well as inner cities face a shortage of doctors?

Yeah, I'm aware of it.

What you apparently aren't aware of is a doctor usually doesn't end up practicing where he grew up.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Now what most students do is go to another school, or wait until next year and get into that one, or first go to another one and then transfer into their first choice. Rare is student who sues and such a student seldom does so because s/he feels aggrieved but because the adults in the student's life have a cause to champion. But the headlines generated would lead one to believe that white students were being dragged out of admissions offices, kicking and screaming and then being banned from higher learning for life.

Because the harm to any given student is too small to make a lawsuit worthwhile.

 

[beero1000]

We have tried race blind policies.

The race divide widened.

race got us into this mess. We can't ignore it and get out of it. It's like trying to cure a flu without looking at the virus.

Looking at the virus is a good idea. The complaint seems to be that affirmative action is actually more like nationally prescribed bed rest for the very young and very old. Sure, they are the most likely to be seriously endangered by the flu, but that doesn't mean that they are all sick, nor does it mean that no one else is.

The non-strawman anti affirmative action position isn't that we should do nothing, but rather that the shotgun approach isn't actually a good solution.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

We have tried race blind policies.

The race divide widened.

race got us into this mess. We can't ignore it and get out of it. It's like trying to cure a flu without looking at the virus.

The only place we have seen it tried is California--and the result was the number of graduates went *UP*.

I can see no good measure of success that wasn't improved by California mandating race-blind admissions.

 

[Toni]

I have no problem with additional languages being of value. Rural vs suburbs vs city has no value, though.

Really? Are you unaware that rural areas as well as inner cities face a shortage of doctors?

Yeah, I'm aware of it.

What you apparently aren't aware of is a doctor usually doesn't end up practicing where he grew up.

Actually, most physicians I know seek out opportunities to practice in communities which are similar to the ones in which they grew up. Currently, the greatest number of physicians practice in suburban settings, followed by urban settings (generally hospital settings) and lastly, rural settings.

 

[dismal]

We have tried race blind policies.

The race divide widened.

race got us into this mess. We can't ignore it and get out of it. It's like trying to cure a flu without looking at the virus.

Yes, who can forget the long time suffering of the hispanics under the iron fist of the asians?

 

[laughing dog]

I have no problem with additional languages being of value. Rural vs suburbs vs city has no value, though.

Really? Are you unaware that rural areas as well as inner cities face a shortage of doctors?

Yeah, I'm aware of it.

What you apparently aren't aware of is a doctor usually doesn't end up practicing where he grew up.

You rebut yourself withing the same post. Rural vs. suburbs certainly has value if there are not enough physicians in rural areas.

 

[Metaphor]

Most important question to me: Why don't you believe that, in the absence of discrimination, over time, differences in test scores (all) of different races, ethnic groups, minorities would disappear or flatten out? Why don't you believe that in the absence of discrimination, the proportion of students from various ethnic groups/minorities/races/whatever admitted to universities and professional schools would more closely reflect the actual portion of the population?

Why do you believe it would? Asians tend to score significantly higher than whites in most standardized tests. Do you suppose that is because Whites are discriminated against compared to Asians? Or could it be that levels of discrimination in a society are only a component of the overall picture with regards to educational outcomes?

I believe that intelligence and academic ability are not more heavily distributed among some ethnic and racial groups more than other groups.

What do you believe?

Out of interest, what kind of evidence would you require to make you doubt your current belief?

Après vous Monsieur.

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

It is certainly the case that there is a large divide between Whites and Blacks in educational attainment by the end of Year 12, and in aptitude (as demonstrated by SAT scores, where the Black student mean is between 0.8 to more than one standard deviation below the White mean score).

So, here's a question for you, Toni. Since you believe that all ethnic groups are equal on academic ability (which is a belief wholly and consummately contradicted by the evidence, at least by Year 12), do you also believe all ethnic groups to be equal on every other measure, like extra-curriculars, leadership potential, etc?

If you do believe that, then why do Blacks and Latinos have such a grossly inflated chance of admission, when GPA and MCAT are held constant? If all races are equal on these extra-curriculars, you would expect an equal chance for Whites, Asians, Blacks and Latinos, at any given GPA/MCAT level.

Will you admit that medical schools discriminate by race? Or have we not even met minds on that hurdle yet?

 

[Metaphor]

I have no problem with additional languages being of value. Rural vs suburbs vs city has no value, though.

Really? Are you unaware that rural areas as well as inner cities face a shortage of doctors?

Yeah, I'm aware of it.

What you apparently aren't aware of is a doctor usually doesn't end up practicing where he grew up.

You rebut yourself withing the same post. Rural vs. suburbs certainly has value if there are not enough physicians in rural areas.

And if you need more physicians in rural areas, you offer them rural-bonded scholarships. You don't just let rubes into medical school and hope that they'll go where you want them.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

We have tried race blind policies.

The race divide widened.

race got us into this mess. We can't ignore it and get out of it. It's like trying to cure a flu without looking at the virus.

You can't extinguish fire with fire.

You can't right injustice with injustice.

You can't end racism with racism.

And yes, look at the virus. Look at racism, what it is, the tribalism, ingroup/outgroup dynamics, etc. Maybe we can think of ways to address and fix racist attitudes and hamper their effects on their victims. Maybe we can identify where the worst of it is happening, and expose it.

But just taking an entire group of people and handing them special rights is supposed to accomplish what exactly? Do you think it is somehow undoing racism? Do you think it is somehow righting things for people who have been wronged, by handing out special perks not to those people, but to people who share a trait with them?

ooking at the virus is a good idea. The complaint seems to be that affirmative action is actually more like nationally prescribed bed rest for the very young and very old. Sure, they are the most likely to be seriously endangered by the flu, but that doesn't mean that they are all sick, nor does it mean that no one else is.

The non-strawman anti affirmative action position isn't that we should do nothing, but rather that the shotgun approach isn't actually a good solution.

Well put. The shotgun not only misses what ought to be hit, but hits what ought to be missed.

 

[laughing dog]

I have no problem with additional languages being of value. Rural vs suburbs vs city has no value, though.

Really? Are you unaware that rural areas as well as inner cities face a shortage of doctors?

Yeah, I'm aware of it.

What you apparently aren't aware of is a doctor usually doesn't end up practicing where he grew up.

You rebut yourself withing the same post. Rural vs. suburbs certainly has value if there are not enough physicians in rural areas.

And if you need more physicians in rural areas, you offer them rural-bonded scholarships. You don't just let rubes into medical school and hope that they'll go where you want them.

"Rubes"?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Whenever people outside of the black community (take note, not all African Americans life in the black community and not all white people drive through the black community with their windows rolled up and their doors locked) discuss the black community, they profess to know the hearts and minds of black people. They may give charts and graphs as evidence of their assertion, but in the end, they know, they just know that something is wrong with the black psyche, with the black spirit and until black people fix whatever is wrong, nothing will work and affirmative action, or poverty programs, or what ever policy directed at aiding black people will not work or worse, is racist against white people.

For somebody who complains about people claiming to speak the minds of others, you sure do at lot of it yourself.

Do you believe there is one "black psyche"? That in itself is racist.

Do you really believe that anybody here has said that? Do you really believe that anybody here believes that?

But yes, programs directed to aid black people at the exclusion of, and especially at the expense of others, most definitely would be racist against white people, and asian people, and Indian people, and hispanic people, and everybody else who isn't black.

 

[Metaphor]

I have no problem with additional languages being of value. Rural vs suburbs vs city has no value, though.

Really? Are you unaware that rural areas as well as inner cities face a shortage of doctors?

Yeah, I'm aware of it.

What you apparently aren't aware of is a doctor usually doesn't end up practicing where he grew up.

You rebut yourself withing the same post. Rural vs. suburbs certainly has value if there are not enough physicians in rural areas.

And if you need more physicians in rural areas, you offer them rural-bonded scholarships. You don't just let rubes into medical school and hope that they'll go where you want them.

"Rubes"?

Okay, 'rubes' was an unneeded dig at people from rural areas. But I stand by the point: there's no reason to give extra slots to students from rural areas, and then blindly hope that they'll go to and stay in the rural areas most in need after they graduate.

What you do is offer medical school slots to the best candidates, and you offer additional rural-bonded scholarships in exchange for the holder of the scholarship agreeing to work in a particular rural area (not of their choice, but where the need is greatest), for a set number of years after graduation.

 

[Togo]

Most important question to me: Why don't you believe that, in the absence of discrimination, over time, differences in test scores (all) of different races, ethnic groups, minorities would disappear or flatten out? Why don't you believe that in the absence of discrimination, the proportion of students from various ethnic groups/minorities/races/whatever admitted to universities and professional schools would more closely reflect the actual portion of the population?

Why do you believe it would? Asians tend to score significantly higher than whites in most standardized tests. Do you suppose that is because Whites are discriminated against compared to Asians? Or could it be that levels of discrimination in a society are only a component of the overall picture with regards to educational outcomes?

I believe that intelligence and academic ability are not more heavily distributed among some ethnic and racial groups more than other groups.

What do you believe?

Out of interest, what kind of evidence would you require to make you doubt your current belief?

Après vous Monsieur.

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

It is certainly the case that there is a large divide between Whites and Blacks in educational attainment by the end of Year 12, and in aptitude (as demonstrated by SAT scores, where the Black student mean is between 0.8 to more than one standard deviation below the White mean score).

So, here's a question for you, Toni. Since you believe that all ethnic groups are equal on academic ability (which is a belief wholly and consummately contradicted by the evidence, at least by Year 12), do you also believe all ethnic groups to be equal on every other measure, like extra-curriculars, leadership potential, etc?

Can you remind me how the evidence supports the idea that you're measuring not just attainment, but aptitude and potential?

The reason I ask is that the evidence you cite is around attainment of various scores, but your conclusion relies on the idea that you're measuring aptitude and potential. Unless you can link the two, you've not cited any evidence to support your position.

 

[Metaphor]

Most important question to me: Why don't you believe that, in the absence of discrimination, over time, differences in test scores (all) of different races, ethnic groups, minorities would disappear or flatten out? Why don't you believe that in the absence of discrimination, the proportion of students from various ethnic groups/minorities/races/whatever admitted to universities and professional schools would more closely reflect the actual portion of the population?

Why do you believe it would? Asians tend to score significantly higher than whites in most standardized tests. Do you suppose that is because Whites are discriminated against compared to Asians? Or could it be that levels of discrimination in a society are only a component of the overall picture with regards to educational outcomes?

I believe that intelligence and academic ability are not more heavily distributed among some ethnic and racial groups more than other groups.

What do you believe?

Out of interest, what kind of evidence would you require to make you doubt your current belief?

Après vous Monsieur.

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

It is certainly the case that there is a large divide between Whites and Blacks in educational attainment by the end of Year 12, and in aptitude (as demonstrated by SAT scores, where the Black student mean is between 0.8 to more than one standard deviation below the White mean score).

So, here's a question for you, Toni. Since you believe that all ethnic groups are equal on academic ability (which is a belief wholly and consummately contradicted by the evidence, at least by Year 12), do you also believe all ethnic groups to be equal on every other measure, like extra-curriculars, leadership potential, etc?

Can you remind me how the evidence supports the idea that you're measuring not just attainment, but aptitude and potential?

The reason I ask is that the evidence you cite is around attainment of various scores, but your conclusion relies on the idea that you're measuring aptitude and potential. Unless you can link the two, you've not cited any evidence to support your position.

GPA measures attainment. SAT and other aptitude tests like the MCAT measure aptitude. This is what they were designed to do, and they predict academic success, so their criterion-related validity is high.

Aptitude tests have been used for over a hundred years.

 

[Rhea]

Okay, 'rubes' was an unneeded dig at people from rural areas. But I stand by the point: there's no reason to give extra slots to students from rural areas, and then blindly hope that they'll go to and stay in the rural areas most in need after they graduate.

What you do is offer medical school slots to the best candidates, and you offer additional rural-bonded scholarships in exchange for the holder of the scholarship agreeing to work in a particular rural area (not of their choice, but where the need is greatest), for a set number of years after graduation.

This does not turn out to be true. You don't "just offer" a financial incentive for someone to work in rural areas and assume that will work out. Many people have a really hard time living in rural areas. They can't take it, they don't stay. The incentives have to be SO HIGH that they aren't worth it. They take off every weekend to go back to where real life is and don't connect to the community.

In my area a large company makes extremely generous concessions and has huge incentive programs to get people to stay in the boonies. And most do not. Just too weird for them.

Your "just bond them" will not attract as many takers as you think, nor will it keep as many as you think. It truly does make a difference that someone knows how to live rural. Some hot-shot high grade awesomesauce from a vibrant city or suburban upbringing will not perform well in a rural setting for decades. Rural people are better off with doctors who will stay the whole time their patients' kids are growing than a revolving door every 5 years when the bond expires.

 

[Rhea]

Another thing that keeps being assumed is that those lower scores in Highschool are somehow a life-long burden. But many people, when they get to college, when they get out of their poor high school, can start to soar, recovering from the problems that dragged down their high school years.

Some folks may say, nope, if you did poorly in high school (if you had a poor high school (and a poor middle school (and a poor grade school))), you are never going to be a good student. You can't recover, you can't make it up. I don't believe that. It's harder, but it doesn't make sense to shut them out and assume they can't. To me.