A White teacher taught White students about White privilege. It cost him his job.

[Jimmy Higgins]

Here's a start. Name 4 well-known Asian American's that aren't known for martial arts? You have all of American History to choose from.

Not everybody lives in America.

Seriously, all the posting and whining about American politics and social issues... and you are playing the "Not American Card"?

 

[Swammerdami]

@ Bomb#20, (...) If I can summarize one of your positions in the thread, you seem to be arguing that discrimination against Blacks is real, but discrimination to favor whites is not real. Aren't they just two sides of the same coin?

No, because not everybody is either white or black.

Sigh. I wondered if someone would think this a refutation. I could have wasted space in my brief remark to discuss discrimination (or lack thereof — it doesn't really affect the main argument!) against Asians. But then someone would have piped in an objection about Browns, Muslims or Native Americans! And then we'd need a sub-debate about discrimination in the 19th century against Irish Americans. LOL.

If you think this distinction from Captain Obvious counters my point, then hats off to you, Enigma!

 

[Toni]

Because I'm white, everyone just assumed I won my place in university, my scholarship, my grades, my place in society by my own hard work.

If it comforts you, I would not just assume you had not benefited from affirmative action. Many white women have benefited.

But I do agree that whilst universities continue to discriminate against whites and Asians, whites and Asians will never be assumed to have gotten in because of the colour of their skin.

Heh. There is that. I did have a couple of people suggest I 'got' things because I'm female but that was easily cleared up when I asked what they got on their last test/SAT/their GPA/class ranking, etc.

So affirmative action did open some doors for me that for my mother had been absolutely closed. Or rather, it pulled the nails out of the doorframe that had kept most women of my mother's generation at home or in nursing school or in elementary education if they made it to college.

One time, in high school, I was specifically asked if I was interested in joining a group because I was a girl---they were looking to break down the boys only barrier and it was widely known that my interests aligned with those of this small part of a larger organization. I was friends with most of the boys, and friends with the coach's daughter (who was not interested).

I always did suspect that I got an unsolicited offer from a BIG NAME university because I was female, although my GPA and test scores were well within their usual acceptance criteria. I didn't accept because I was not interested in their main areas of focus and because family circumstances (my mother had just had a traumatic brain injury) mandated I stay within very easy driving distance of home. At the time, they had a very small number of female students enrolled.

 

[Gun Nut]

Are you proposing that I lie to my lender? If It was legal for me to provide false information in the process of obtaining credit I'd tell them I was white, not part white. That is to assure I get the full benefits of being white, not partial benefits.

Well, that’s the point. Why do White people like Elizabeth Warren lie about their racial ancestry? Because the current societal advantage favors non-White identity. If White Privilege bestowed advantage, why do so many want to be seen as not White?

Warren didn't lie. She repeated the story she had grown up with about her ancestry. She believed what she was told.

I believed my father when he told me we had native american in us (in 1970-whatever, it was 'Indian'). It was a story he told. It had no impact on me. By the time I was a teenager, I doubted A LOT of things my father said, that included. So... grain of salt. Until 2000-whatever when DNA profiling was not just affordable and highly available, but a fad. It was around this time of year some years ago when the family decided to do Ancestry.com or whatever it was... and in preparation for the sampling we would all do together, my father began the process of separating himself from the lore.. backpedaling here, denying there... mostly downplay... and the results... unsurprising.

 

[Gun Nut]

And there are multiple kinds of privilege around and various people benefit from them in various ways: race, sex, wealth, education, religion, language.

Agreed. However, Being white has its privileges despite your sex, wealth. education. religion or the language you speak. In fact, it manifests itself across all those classifications.

I, a white guy, was taken advantage of by black privilege. I was not accepted into a specialized high school (based on testing) due to missing 1 question too many out of 200+ on a test. I was able to dispute the results of the test, and the person interviewing me (who was black) flat out told me in front of my father in the interview room that he would be able to strike one of my incorrect answers out on affirmative action if I was black. But since I was not black, too bad - try again next year.
The next year I took the test again, and scored in the top 1%, gaining entry into the school after missing my Freshman year, changing the entire dynamic of my high school experience, and likely the entire outcome of my life... for better or worse, who could know.

 

[Gospel]

I, a white guy, was taken advantage of by black privilege. I was not accepted into a specialized high school (based on testing) due to missing 1 question too many out of 200+ on a test. I was able to dispute the results of the test, and the person interviewing me (who was black) flat out told me in front of my father in the interview room that he would be able to strike one of my incorrect answers out on affirmative action if I was black. But since I was not black, too bad - try again next year.
The next year I took the test again, and scored in the top 1%, gaining entry into the school after missing my Freshman year, changing the entire dynamic of my high school experience, and likely the entire outcome of my life... for better or worse, who could know.

I respect and acknowledge that you were discriminated against based on your color. Can you respect and acknowledge that black people get discriminated against for a different reason? Specifically, they're thought to be inferior and in past times not human with our skin color being used as the identifier? I would consider it a privilege if I was discriminated against for just my color rather than the inferior and not human attributes attached to it. Affirmative action (while its merits are debatable & I side with it not being the answer) was put in place because of that kind of discrimination.

 

[Toni]

Are you proposing that I lie to my lender? If It was legal for me to provide false information in the process of obtaining credit I'd tell them I was white, not part white. That is to assure I get the full benefits of being white, not partial benefits.

Well, that’s the point. Why do White people like Elizabeth Warren lie about their racial ancestry? Because the current societal advantage favors non-White identity. If White Privilege bestowed advantage, why do so many want to be seen as not White?

Warren didn't lie. She repeated the story she had grown up with about her ancestry. She believed what she was told.

I believed my father when he told me we had native american in us (in 1970-whatever, it was 'Indian'). It was a story he told. It had no impact on me. By the time I was a teenager, I doubted A LOT of things my father said, that included. So... grain of salt. Until 2000-whatever when DNA profiling was not just affordable and highly available, but a fad. It was around this time of year some years ago when the family decided to do Ancestry.com or whatever it was... and in preparation for the sampling we would all do together, my father began the process of separating himself from the lore.. backpedaling here, denying there... mostly downplay... and the results... unsurprising.

The reality is that there is no data base containing genetic profiles that indicate or disprove Native American ancestry and native Americans specifically do not use genetic testing to determine tribal membership. To the best of my knowledge, Warren has never claimed tribal membership in any band or tribe. I also believe that Elizabeth Warren was asked about her Native American ancestry during the 70’s or so….

I had not been fully certain that there were no secrets liking in our family tree that would contradict family lore. One of my kids did a 23 and me test (fwiw) and the results fully supported family trees and family lore—somewhat disappointing a couple of family members…

 

[Metaphor]

Seriously, all the posting and whining about American politics and social issues... and you are playing the "Not American Card"?

It is a comment about the term 'white privilege' and Gospel's example. I would not expect Asians to be prominent in American history because even now, Asian-heritage Americans are about 5% of Americans, and I suspect it would be far less in previous decades.

 

[Toni]

Seriously, all the posting and whining about American politics and social issues... and you are playing the "Not American Card"?

It is a comment about the term 'white privilege' and Gospel's example. I would not expect Asians to be prominent in American history because even now, Asian-heritage Americans are about 5% of Americans, and I suspect it would be far less in previous decades.

It's actually about 7% of the US population now. Currently, Asian Americans are the fastest growing group in the US.

Historically, different Asian people in the US faced some very, very significant discrimination. Discrimination continues today. It's easy to not really think about Asians as a monolithic group as being discriminated against. Some groups have been highly successful and some still face some serious discrimination and negative bias.

 

[Metaphor]

Seriously, all the posting and whining about American politics and social issues... and you are playing the "Not American Card"?

It is a comment about the term 'white privilege' and Gospel's example. I would not expect Asians to be prominent in American history because even now, Asian-heritage Americans are about 5% of Americans, and I suspect it would be far less in previous decades.

It's actually about 7% of the US population now. Currently, Asian Americans are the fastest growing group in the US.

Historically, different Asian people in the US faced some very, very significant discrimination. Discrimination continues today. It's easy to not really think about Asians as a monolithic group as being discriminated against. Some groups have been highly successful and some still face some serious discrimination and negative bias.

I fully agree. White people are not a monolithic group, either. My family's culture is not the mainstream culture in Australia that developed from Anglo-Celtic roots, yet people would call me white and assume I have the same privileges that flow to people who are part of the mainstream culture.

 

[Toni]

Seriously, all the posting and whining about American politics and social issues... and you are playing the "Not American Card"?

It is a comment about the term 'white privilege' and Gospel's example. I would not expect Asians to be prominent in American history because even now, Asian-heritage Americans are about 5% of Americans, and I suspect it would be far less in previous decades.

It's actually about 7% of the US population now. Currently, Asian Americans are the fastest growing group in the US.

Historically, different Asian people in the US faced some very, very significant discrimination. Discrimination continues today. It's easy to not really think about Asians as a monolithic group as being discriminated against. Some groups have been highly successful and some still face some serious discrimination and negative bias.

I fully agree. White people are not a monolithic group, either. My family's culture is not the mainstream culture in Australia that developed from Anglo-Celtic roots, yet people would call me white and assume I have the same privileges that flow to people who are part of the mainstream culture.

What privileges normally afforded white people in Australia are you excluded from?

 

[Metaphor]

Seriously, all the posting and whining about American politics and social issues... and you are playing the "Not American Card"?

It is a comment about the term 'white privilege' and Gospel's example. I would not expect Asians to be prominent in American history because even now, Asian-heritage Americans are about 5% of Americans, and I suspect it would be far less in previous decades.

It's actually about 7% of the US population now. Currently, Asian Americans are the fastest growing group in the US.

Historically, different Asian people in the US faced some very, very significant discrimination. Discrimination continues today. It's easy to not really think about Asians as a monolithic group as being discriminated against. Some groups have been highly successful and some still face some serious discrimination and negative bias.

I fully agree. White people are not a monolithic group, either. My family's culture is not the mainstream culture in Australia that developed from Anglo-Celtic roots, yet people would call me white and assume I have the same privileges that flow to people who are part of the mainstream culture.

What privileges normally afforded white people in Australia are you excluded from?

I did not say white people were privileged in Australia. I said there is privilege associated with being part of the mainstream Anglo-Celtic culture. One of those privileges is simply having a first and last name that doesn't bewilder people.

 

[Toni]

Seriously, all the posting and whining about American politics and social issues... and you are playing the "Not American Card"?

It is a comment about the term 'white privilege' and Gospel's example. I would not expect Asians to be prominent in American history because even now, Asian-heritage Americans are about 5% of Americans, and I suspect it would be far less in previous decades.

It's actually about 7% of the US population now. Currently, Asian Americans are the fastest growing group in the US.

Historically, different Asian people in the US faced some very, very significant discrimination. Discrimination continues today. It's easy to not really think about Asians as a monolithic group as being discriminated against. Some groups have been highly successful and some still face some serious discrimination and negative bias.

I fully agree. White people are not a monolithic group, either. My family's culture is not the mainstream culture in Australia that developed from Anglo-Celtic roots, yet people would call me white and assume I have the same privileges that flow to people who are part of the mainstream culture.

What privileges normally afforded white people in Australia are you excluded from?

I did not say white people were privileged in Australia. I said there is privilege associated with being part of the mainstream Anglo-Celtic culture. One of those privileges is simply having a first and last name that doesn't bewilder people.

My family name also confused people and it was widely mispronounced and never spelled correctly except by people whose family had lived in the same corner of the county where my father’s family lived. Interestingly enough, my married name also seems to confound people but that one is more ????? as it is extremely straight forward with very typical English spelling/pronunciation. I sometimes find it irritating but to me, that’s not a loss or absence of privilege. We relocated to a state/small town far from where either of us grew up. We will always be somewhat outsiders as we don’t hail from ancestral lines originating in one of the fire dominate groups, but it’s not a big deal. Is it a bigger deal for you, beyond the annoyance/irritation? Do people see you as an outsider?

In what other ways does your non-Anglo heritage have a negative effect on you?

You’ve brought this up before and I’m interested to know how this has affected you.

 

[Metaphor]

Seriously, all the posting and whining about American politics and social issues... and you are playing the "Not American Card"?

It is a comment about the term 'white privilege' and Gospel's example. I would not expect Asians to be prominent in American history because even now, Asian-heritage Americans are about 5% of Americans, and I suspect it would be far less in previous decades.

It's actually about 7% of the US population now. Currently, Asian Americans are the fastest growing group in the US.

Historically, different Asian people in the US faced some very, very significant discrimination. Discrimination continues today. It's easy to not really think about Asians as a monolithic group as being discriminated against. Some groups have been highly successful and some still face some serious discrimination and negative bias.

I fully agree. White people are not a monolithic group, either. My family's culture is not the mainstream culture in Australia that developed from Anglo-Celtic roots, yet people would call me white and assume I have the same privileges that flow to people who are part of the mainstream culture.

What privileges normally afforded white people in Australia are you excluded from?

I did not say white people were privileged in Australia. I said there is privilege associated with being part of the mainstream Anglo-Celtic culture. One of those privileges is simply having a first and last name that doesn't bewilder people.

My family name also confused people and it was widely mispronounced and never spelled correctly except by people whose family had lived in the same corner of the county where my father’s family lived. Interestingly enough, my married name also seems to confound people but that one is more ????? as it is extremely straight forward with very typical English spelling/pronunciation. I sometimes find it irritating but to me, that’s not a loss or absence of privilege.

You don't think that 95% of people with whom you interact daily mispronouncing your name isn't an absence of privilege?

The left has attacked Republicans for not pronouncing Kamala Harris' first name correctly. Do you think it has not been annoying for her to hear it mispronounced? That it hasn't othered her?

Note that I don't blame anyone. So many people mispronounce my name so constantly I believe their brains really cannot hear the difference between what I tell them is the correct pronounciation and what they are saying.

We relocated to a state/small town far from where either of us grew up. We will always be somewhat outsiders as we don’t hail from ancestral lines originating in one of the fire dominate groups, but it’s not a big deal. Is it a bigger deal for you, beyond the annoyance/irritation? Do people see you as an outsider?

In what other ways does your non-Anglo heritage have a negative effect on you?

You’ve brought this up before and I’m interested to know how this has affected you.

When you are a child and your family's culture is not the dominant culture where you live, you know it. When your parents speak broken English and the Anglo kids parents don't, you know it. When you can't communicate fluently with your parents in either their mother tongue or your own, you know it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Are you proposing that I lie to my lender? If It was legal for me to provide false information in the process of obtaining credit I'd tell them I was white, not part white. That is to assure I get the full benefits of being white, not partial benefits.

These days most loans are done online, aren't they? Why should you be obligated to disclose any information not directly pertinent to your fiscal responsibility? Screw those people, they don't need to know your skin color, no more than they need to know your hair color or your sex.

This is the solution I would like to see--as much as practical isolate the information about protected characteristics from the people making the decisions.

 

[Toni]

Seriously, all the posting and whining about American politics and social issues... and you are playing the "Not American Card"?

It is a comment about the term 'white privilege' and Gospel's example. I would not expect Asians to be prominent in American history because even now, Asian-heritage Americans are about 5% of Americans, and I suspect it would be far less in previous decades.

It's actually about 7% of the US population now. Currently, Asian Americans are the fastest growing group in the US.

Historically, different Asian people in the US faced some very, very significant discrimination. Discrimination continues today. It's easy to not really think about Asians as a monolithic group as being discriminated against. Some groups have been highly successful and some still face some serious discrimination and negative bias.

I fully agree. White people are not a monolithic group, either. My family's culture is not the mainstream culture in Australia that developed from Anglo-Celtic roots, yet people would call me white and assume I have the same privileges that flow to people who are part of the mainstream culture.

What privileges normally afforded white people in Australia are you excluded from?

I did not say white people were privileged in Australia. I said there is privilege associated with being part of the mainstream Anglo-Celtic culture. One of those privileges is simply having a first and last name that doesn't bewilder people.

My family name also confused people and it was widely mispronounced and never spelled correctly except by people whose family had lived in the same corner of the county where my father’s family lived. Interestingly enough, my married name also seems to confound people but that one is more ????? as it is extremely straight forward with very typical English spelling/pronunciation. I sometimes find it irritating but to me, that’s not a loss or absence of privilege.

You don't think that 95% of people with whom you interact daily mispronouncing your name isn't an absence of privilege?

The left has attacked Republicans for not pronouncing Kamala Harris' first name correctly. Do you think it has not been annoying for her to hear it mispronounced? That it hasn't othered her?

Note that I don't blame anyone. So many people mispronounce my name so constantly I believe their brains really cannot hear the difference between what I tell them is the correct pronounciation and what they are saying.

We relocated to a state/small town far from where either of us grew up. We will always be somewhat outsiders as we don’t hail from ancestral lines originating in one of the fire dominate groups, but it’s not a big deal. Is it a bigger deal for you, beyond the annoyance/irritation? Do people see you as an outsider?

In what other ways does your non-Anglo heritage have a negative effect on you?

You’ve brought this up before and I’m interested to know how this has affected you.

When you are a child and your family's culture is not the dominant culture where you live, you know it. When your parents speak broken English and the Anglo kids parents don't, you know it. When you can't communicate fluently with your parents in either their mother tongue or your own, you know it.

Probably 95% of the new people I met as a child/young adult could neither correctly pronounce or spell my last name. Of course, people I knew or who knew my family knew who I was just by the sight of me (strong family resemblance going back a couple of generations or more) which is its own kind of curse. But no, my name wasn't 'foreign' as such. Just not Anglo/Celtic or Germanic. My French teacher loved it, though. But this was a weird juxtaposition: my family had mostly lived in that corner of the county for well over a hundred years by the time I was born. They farmed and farming families tend to know each other.....So, people who knew my family instantly recognized me on sight. People who didn't know my family could never pronounce my family name correctly or spell it correctly. Still, I looked like pretty much anyone, and we all spoke the same vernacular of English, with the same accents, same reference points, etc.

I have a fair number of friends who naturalized Americans, or first generations and some who have not naturalized. For some, I think the language is difficult but it tends to be harder on the parents than the children who grew up in the US. I always think it must be hard to leave your country, even if it means following your dreams to another country/culture and especially watching the next generations adopt the new culture as native and see the culture of the parents as...somehow foreign. One of my friends who has young children born here was just telling me that his kids don't like his culture's food--they just like American junk--which is hard because there's quite an extended family group and they all cook a lot of traditional foods--which look delicious (a couple run restaurants) and people like me love to go to eat at those restaurants (when there is no pandemic). He's Asian and I am aware--and have witnessed some discrimination he has faced, especially as his English is pretty heavily accented (although excellent). I'm not sure how his children feel--they are still pretty young, but I can tell from his conversation that he and they both feel some cultural conflicts, each generation with American culture and then also, at home, between the immigrant generations and the first generation Americans who have a foot in each culture. A couple of my friends who were either first generation Americans or who immigrated as very young children used to talk about acting as translators for their parents and how that changed family dynamics in some ways.

Your parents must be very courageous people, to leave what is familiar and to start in a new country where they will perhaps always be seen as 'foreign' or 'outsiders' and where it is likely that they will never seem quite as smart and eloquent or funny in Australian English as they are in their native country, with their first language. I can see how it could be difficult for you, to feel as though you are seen as 'foreign' (if I am getting that right) in the world at large, and how it could be a conflict between wanting to honor your parents' heritage and still fit in as a proper Australian.

I'm sorry if I've probed--I'm just always interested in people and how they view the world and how their experiences are different than mine, etc. Basically, I really like people and I especially find it interesting to listen to people who have immigrated or who are first generation (whatever country). I think it gives an interesting perspective.

Thank you for sharing.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

We didn't get higher interest rates on our loans because of the color of our skin, which is something that to this day still happens to black people applying for mortgages. That's a pretty big advantage.

But is it real?

I'm thinking back quite a while to a big flap about redlining in mortgage applications here. The article even admitted that the race of the applicant made no difference for any given mortgage. And that it made no difference when applying for an 80/20 mortgage. It only showed up for low down payment mortgages.

Strange that they would only discriminate in this case.....maybe something else is going on. Yup--all the "discrimination" was going on in two zip codes. The two zip codes with the lowest property appreciation rate. Are they discriminating by race, or are the bankers looking at the chance the mortgage will be underwater. The latter is a quite legitimate fear for the bankers and it was exactly those mortgages they didn't like. That's a best-guess piece of data rather than a known piece of data, it's no surprise it didn't make it into the government model that "proved" discrimination.

 

[Enigma]

No, because not everybody is either white or black.

For example: Asian people exist. Do they need to have "the talk" about how to behave around police to avoid getting killed by racist police?

If so, and if every other group who isn't white and no significant subset of white people need to have that talk, then yes, that is a case of white privilege.

Otherwise, it's just a case of black disadvantage.

Hey, guys look over there! Asians aren't similar to blacks in one minute detail!

So the repeated instances of police brutality against resulting in deaths that happens against Black people, but not against Asian people is one minute detail?

If it is so unimportant, why does it keep getting brought up in discussions of White Privilege?

What exactly were all of the BLM protests about then?

That means white privilege doesn't exist! Adorable.

No, it means that white privilege is a shitty way to frame the problem specified, assuming that the solution that you are looking for is to remove black disadvantage and give them the same baseline rights and conditions that white people do, as opposed to blaming the problems of everyone who isn't white on white people.

How's about we talk about white privilege over Asain's then?

Here's a start. Name 4 well-known Asian American's that aren't known for martial arts? You have all of American History to choose from.

Easy:
George Takei, Andrew Yang, Ken Jeong, Sandra Oh, Michio Kaku....

I can keep going. Should I keep going? I haven't even listed any Youtubers, Twitch streamers or e-sports celebrities yet.

Just because your local circle of friends think of Asians as kung-fu fodder doesn't mean everyone else shares your limited view of Asians.

Spoiler: ALERT

After you google them, note the historic discrimination against Asians by, -surprised pikachu- privileged white people.

Asians are still struggling with racism themselves these days (in many cases from Black People). They've had/have advantages themselves but that by no means indicates the absence of white privilege. The fact there aren't a lot of well-known prominent Asain figures is telling. Especially considering that all non-white Americans becoming American citizens just for being born on American soil was solidified over an Asian.

Yes, Asian people also suffer from disadvantages in society. Some of them are even caused by white people.
They are different from those that are experienced by black people.
If you actually want to solve the problems of black disadvantage and Asian disadvantage, then recognizing that they are different problems with different solutions is a first step.

But, of course, it's more fun and easier to blame the evil white people for all of the evil.
I'm sure working to remove "White Privilege" will fix the problem.
I'm sure that if we just have some more fatal police brutalities against white people and make it so that white people also have to "have the talk" about dealing with police, it will start to make everything better for everyone, because we will have chipped away at white privilege, which is the core problem that we are trying to solve from which all other race relations problems flow.

No? That's not how it works?

No shit. That's why "White Privilege" is a stupid framework for actually trying to solve these issues. If you mean "black disadvantage" then say "black disadvantage". Some of those disadvantages are even caused by white people. Imagine that.

Like holy shit why was that never mentioned throughout my 9 years in public schools?

Because public school in America sucks. This is another problem with another solution.

But all this is not my point. What I'm really saying is if you're going to argue white privileged doesn't exist it's silly to exclude Whites then use a comparison between Asians & Blacks as the basis for that argument.

No, I'm arguing that "White Privilege" is a poor framework for solving race-based problems and a good framework for race-baiting against white people, which nicely explains why there are plenty of race-based problems going unsolved and plenty of race-baiting against the evil whites and their whitely evilness.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Seriously, all the posting and whining about American politics and social issues... and you are playing the "Not American Card"?

It is a comment about the term 'white privilege' and Gospel's example. I would not expect Asians to be prominent in American history because even now, Asian-heritage Americans are about 5% of Americans, and I suspect it would be far less in previous decades.

This. People known for their non-physical accomplishments generally become widely known only in their later years. Thus there will be something like a 50 year lag between the barriers being broken down and proportionate representation amongst the well known.

Those known for physical accomplishments will become known at an earlier age. However, Asians tend to be a bit smaller than the average white person--and thus substantially underrepresented amongst those with the greatest physical prowess. Major American sports all have a substantial physical prowess component, the superstars are unlikely to be Asian. (Note we see the opposite effect with basketball--height is an advantage, thus the tiny average difference between blacks and whites becomes a big difference at the very end of the tail. The NBA is far blacker than the population.) Sports where skill dominates over prowess are another matter--hence Asians known for martial arts.

There are also the areas where money talks (either in the form of training or expensive equipment.) Those will select for the children of those with a lot of money and thus will skew strongly white.

 

[Toni]

We didn't get higher interest rates on our loans because of the color of our skin, which is something that to this day still happens to black people applying for mortgages. That's a pretty big advantage.

But is it real?

I'm thinking back quite a while to a big flap about redlining in mortgage applications here. The article even admitted that the race of the applicant made no difference for any given mortgage. And that it made no difference when applying for an 80/20 mortgage. It only showed up for low down payment mortgages.

Strange that they would only discriminate in this case.....maybe something else is going on. Yup--all the "discrimination" was going on in two zip codes. The two zip codes with the lowest property appreciation rate. Are they discriminating by race, or are the bankers looking at the chance the mortgage will be underwater. The latter is a quite legitimate fear for the bankers and it was exactly those mortgages they didn't like. That's a best-guess piece of data rather than a known piece of data, it's no surprise it didn't make it into the government model that "proved" discrimination.

It’s kind of a catch-22 isn’t it? Only certain zip codes, where property values were typically lower/people had less money. It would be very interesting to see how those zip codes correlate to skin color.

The house we first bought was purchased over 30 years ago, in a major urban area with a significant black and other minority population—which was significantly segregated along racial/ethnic lines. Something that I had not thought much about or considered at the time.

For the record, we did not have a 20% down payment for our first home. I can’t think of a single friend who did….