Diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) derail from student loans thread

[Trausti]

Make college lower cost at state institutions. Elite istitutions can still charge whaever they want. But fund state institutions to provide an exceptional education at an affordable rate.

Yes. Fire the diversocrats and streamline the administration. Save lots of $$$, lower tuition.

 

[laughing dog]

Make college lower cost at state institutions. Elite istitutions can still charge whaever they want. But fund state institutions to provide an exceptional education at an affordable rate.

Yes. Fire the diversocrats and streamline the administration. Save lots of $$$, lower tuition

How much do you think that will reduce expenses?

 

[Trausti]

Make college lower cost at state institutions. Elite istitutions can still charge whaever they want. But fund state institutions to provide an exceptional education at an affordable rate.

Yes. Fire the diversocrats and streamline the administration. Save lots of $$$, lower tuition

How much do you think that will reduce expenses?

Univ Michigan 2021 salaries (link) reveal 126 diversicrats at an average salary of $93,600 with 38 making >$100K and a high of $430,795. Total payroll cost >$15M = in-state tuition for almost 1000 students.

 

[laughing dog]

Make college lower cost at state institutions. Elite istitutions can still charge whaever they want. But fund state institutions to provide an exceptional education at an affordable rate.

Yes. Fire the diversocrats and streamline the administration. Save lots of $$$, lower tuition

How much do you think that will reduce expenses?

Univ Michigan 2021 salaries (link) reveal 126 diversicrats at an average salary of $93,600 with 38 making >$100K and a high of $430,795. Total payroll cost >$15M = in-state tuition for almost 1000 students.

There are roughly 48,000 full time students at the University of Michigan. You are talking about 1/48 or a 2.1% increase in students. And that assumes, of course, that all of those people are
1) "useless", and
2) not funded by specific grants for specific functions.

 

[Metaphor]

Make college lower cost at state institutions. Elite istitutions can still charge whaever they want. But fund state institutions to provide an exceptional education at an affordable rate.

Yes. Fire the diversocrats and streamline the administration. Save lots of $$$, lower tuition

How much do you think that will reduce expenses?

Univ Michigan 2021 salaries (link) reveal 126 diversicrats at an average salary of $93,600 with 38 making >$100K and a high of $430,795. Total payroll cost >$15M = in-state tuition for almost 1000 students.

There are roughly 48,000 full time students at the University of Michigan. You are talking about 1/48 or a 2.1% increase in students. And that assumes, of course, that all of those people are
1) "useless", and
2) not funded by specific grants for specific functions.

I'd go stronger than 'useless'. I'd say actively harmful.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

What educated people give back to society is the momentum education adds to the society, plain and simple.

Education is it's own reward through the progress it brings.

Educated in what, precisely? I'd take 1 engineer over 20 grievance studies graduate for almost anything.

 

[Trausti]

There are roughly 48,000 full time students at the University of Michigan. You are talking about 1/48 or a 2.1% increase in students. And that assumes, of course, that all of those people are
1) "useless", and
2) not funded by specific grants for specific functions.

The DIE crowd are completely useless. And that's just one example of the administrative bloat at universities. If you let 1/3 of the non-teaching bureaucrats go, would anyone notice? Would anyone care? If the students were offered the choice of keeping the dross or a drop in tuition, which do you think they'd pick?

 

[Rhea]

Jason has chosen to misrepresent the professionals by mis-labeling Diversity, Equity and Inclusion (DEI) with the label “DIE”. Haha. Jason - now that you see this, if it was a mistake, not a choice, you can correct yourself. I suspect it was a choice to mock, though, which ironically says a lot about why DE&I are needed.

Others claim that these professionals are “harmful,” and that they serve “grievance studies” which again is chock full of irony as the typical topics by these people are only about grievance.

But as a hiring manager, I am very glad to have DEI professionals helping a larger pool of employees become ready for the workplace. This is something my company needs and I want more of. My colleagues and I reach out to DEI groups at colleges to help us in recruiting, and we reach out to help them with development, with quite a few technical professional volunteering to coach and mentor students identified for us by DEI at the college here in town.

So contrary to the snark and insults that the White Grievance crowd heaps upon the effort, businesses are quite supportive.

 

[laughing dog]

There are roughly 48,000 full time students at the University of Michigan. You are talking about 1/48 or a 2.1% increase in students. And that assumes, of course, that all of those people are
1) "useless", and
2) not funded by specific grants for specific functions.

The DIE crowd are completely useless. And that's just one example of the administrative bloat at universities. If you let 1/3 of the non-teaching bureaucrats go, would anyone notice? Would anyone care? If the students were offered the choice of keeping the dross or a drop in tuition, which do you think they'd pick?

Please define "administrative bloat" and then please produce data-driven estimates on the cost saving.

I ask, because your example about diversity, equity and inclusion didn't show much savings (and that assumed that all of the people in your example were useless and there no grant-funds supported any positions). Which suggests to me that there is no reason to expect your "administrative bloat" reduction burp would generate much savings either.

Frankly, your rhetoric suggests you know very little at all about universities.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Jason has chosen to misrepresent the professionals by mis-labeling Diversity, Equity and Inclusion (DEI) with the label “DIE”. Haha. Jason - now that you see this, if it was a mistake, not a choice, you can correct yourself. I suspect it was a choice to mock, though, which ironically says a lot about why DE&I are needed.

Others claim that these professionals are “harmful,” and that they serve “grievance studies” which again is chock full of irony as the typical topics by these people are only about grievance.

But as a hiring manager, I am very glad to have DEI professionals helping a larger pool of employees become ready for the workplace. This is something my company needs and I want more of. My colleagues and I reach out to DEI groups at colleges to help us in recruiting, and we reach out to help them with development, with quite a few technical professional volunteering to coach and mentor students identified for us by DEI at the college here in town.

So contrary to the snark and insults that the White Grievance crowd heaps upon the effort, businesses are quite supportive.

I never used the term DEI or DIE. If you think I have, please find the quote where I did so. I used the term "grievance studies", which you attributed to unnamed others.

It is very well and good to say that HR persons are eager to hire people with those majors, but as someone outside HR I have never found that to be the case. HR managers are a rather timid lot, and operate by a "does it check the boxes" system with regards to filling positions. I have been working in engineering for over 2 decades, and even now with all that experience the fact that my degree is in math makes them reluctant to consider me. It doesn't fit the checkbox.

Sure, upper executives like to make announcements about how a wide range of degrees are good for business, the HR managers all mouth agreement while also hoping that the other HR managers will be the one to take the risk leaving them free to not take the risk. Checklists to preapprove even looking at the resume is the safest policy. Even if the safest policy is to use racist terms such as "white grievance" to describe people who see through the BS.

 

[laughing dog]

Jason has chosen to misrepresent the professionals by mis-labeling Diversity, Equity and Inclusion (DEI) with the label “DIE”. Haha. Jason - now that you see this, if it was a mistake, not a choice, you can correct yourself. I suspect it was a choice to mock, though, which ironically says a lot about why DE&I are needed.

Others claim that these professionals are “harmful,” and that they serve “grievance studies” which again is chock full of irony as the typical topics by these people are only about grievance.

But as a hiring manager, I am very glad to have DEI professionals helping a larger pool of employees become ready for the workplace. This is something my company needs and I want more of. My colleagues and I reach out to DEI groups at colleges to help us in recruiting, and we reach out to help them with development, with quite a few technical professional volunteering to coach and mentor students identified for us by DEI at the college here in town.

So contrary to the snark and insults that the White Grievance crowd heaps upon the effort, businesses are quite supportive.

A private company in a capitalist country values DEI professionals because they help maintain or improve profitability via helping recruit productive employees. Sounds to me the opposite of useless or harmless.

 

[Toni]

Jason has chosen to misrepresent the professionals by mis-labeling Diversity, Equity and Inclusion (DEI) with the label “DIE”. Haha. Jason - now that you see this, if it was a mistake, not a choice, you can correct yourself. I suspect it was a choice to mock, though, which ironically says a lot about why DE&I are needed.

Others claim that these professionals are “harmful,” and that they serve “grievance studies” which again is chock full of irony as the typical topics by these people are only about grievance.

But as a hiring manager, I am very glad to have DEI professionals helping a larger pool of employees become ready for the workplace. This is something my company needs and I want more of. My colleagues and I reach out to DEI groups at colleges to help us in recruiting, and we reach out to help them with development, with quite a few technical professional volunteering to coach and mentor students identified for us by DEI at the college here in town.

So contrary to the snark and insults that the White Grievance crowd heaps upon the effort, businesses are quite supportive.

I never used the term DEI or DIE. If you think I have, please find the quote where I did so. I used the term "grievance studies", which you attributed to unnamed others.

It is very well and good to say that HR persons are eager to hire people with those majors, but as someone outside HR I have never found that to be the case. HR managers are a rather timid lot, and operate by a "does it check the boxes" system with regards to filling positions. I have been working in engineering for over 2 decades, and even now with all that experience the fact that my degree is in math makes them reluctant to consider me. It doesn't fit the checkbox.

Sure, upper executives like to make announcements about how a wide range of degrees are good for business, the HR managers all mouth agreement while also hoping that the other HR managers will be the one to take the risk leaving them free to not take the risk. Checklists to preapprove even looking at the resume is the safest policy. Even if the safest policy is to use racist terms such as "white grievance" to describe people who see through the BS.

Heh. I’ve heard HR described as many things but ‘timid’ is completely new to me.

 

[Rhea]

I never used the term DEI or DIE. If you think I have, please find the quote where I did so

My apologies. That was Trausti.

It is very well and good to say that HR persons are eager to hire people with those majors, but as someone outside HR I have never found that to be the case. HR managers are a rather timid lot, and operate by a "does it check the boxes" system with regards to filling positions. I have been working in engineering for over 2 decades, and even now with all that experience the fact that my degree is in math makes them reluctant to consider me. It doesn't fit the checkbox.

I’m not in HR. I’ve been working in Engineering for over 3 decades. (Beyond that I’ve also worked in banking and municipal government.) I didn’t say I was in HR, I said I was a “hiring manager”. Meaning I manage an engineering team, and I hire people. Engineers mostly, but occasionally math people, physics or chemists. And I don’t let HR force me to “check boxes.” I hire based on value to the team.

Sure, upper executives like to make announcements about how a wide range of degrees are good for business, the HR managers all mouth agreement while also hoping that the other HR managers will be the one to take the risk leaving them free to not take the risk. Checklists to preapprove even looking at the resume is the safest policy. Even if the safest policy is to use racist terms such as "white grievance" to describe people who see through the BS.

Since I’m not in HR, I’m not timid, and I’m not an upper executive, your comments are not reality based. Just grievance.

My post is about the value of DEI in universities to help supply me with high quality workforce. They do work that helps me. I value it and I make money off it (for my company).

Moreover, I was not talking only about non-STEM degrees, I was talking about what DEI does for me for STEM-degreed people.

 

[Trausti]

There are roughly 48,000 full time students at the University of Michigan. You are talking about 1/48 or a 2.1% increase in students. And that assumes, of course, that all of those people are
1) "useless", and
2) not funded by specific grants for specific functions.

The DIE crowd are completely useless. And that's just one example of the administrative bloat at universities. If you let 1/3 of the non-teaching bureaucrats go, would anyone notice? Would anyone care? If the students were offered the choice of keeping the dross or a drop in tuition, which do you think they'd pick?

Please define "administrative bloat" and then please produce data-driven estimates on the cost saving.

I ask, because your example about diversity, equity and inclusion didn't show much savings (and that assumed that all of the people in your example were useless and there no grant-funds supported any positions). Which suggests to me that there is no reason to expect your "administrative bloat" reduction burp would generate much savings either.

Frankly, your rhetoric suggests you know very little at all about universities.

FFS. If those braying about the oppression of student loans actually gave a shit about the students, and not protecting those exploiting them, they'd question why universities have had explosive spending on non-teaching administrative staff while their graduates suffer long-term debt. It's no secret the tuition costs have increase at rates far greater than inflation. Where does the money go? To instruction? Fuck, no. If the administration at a public university cannot make tuition affordable while spending $$$ on fake jobs, those administrators should be fired.

As University administration salary rises, so does tuition



Hah, hah. Fuck you student. Get more loans.

 

[Rhea]

Trausti has a lot of disdain for non-instructional staff at a university. His arguments are based, so far, on a paragraph of job descritption, and whatever he thinks from reading that is the sum total of the position’s contributions.

Experience with these positions for actual college students (including my white son) shows a far more valuable picture. These “non-instructional staff” have been the people who have helped my kids as they navigate classes, class selection, internship pursuit, and connections to the job market. Including for my white son.

So if one of these DEI staff positions helps a student - or 50 students - prepare their experiences and classes for success and helps them design a resume to show their accomplishments and gets them a better job 5 months sooner, it is hardly a “fuck you student,” but rather a meaningful impact against their cost of education.

Trausti has failed completely to address the point made earlier by Loren and others that much of the sudden increase in tuition has been due to a sudden decrease in public spending and the colleges, with the same payroll, are having to collect from a new source, the student.

Reiterating my opinion from earlier, I do believe the first problem to address is funding for trades education. We need more of those people, and we need them badly. Trades are wonderful for people who would like to stay in their community. No guarantees, of course, but more likely. Trades are wonderful for those who would like to control the length of their work-week. So there are good reasons in economic need for tradespeople and benefits of trades to show that society values these skills and promotes them.

The next thing is easy-peasy, and that is to reduce interest on existing student loans immediately, to no more than corporations pay to borrow from the government. Some usurious lendors may have a problem with this, I don’t care if they hurt, they’ve been extorting people for far too long; good riddance.

And then we can work on reducing salaries that represent 2% of student tuition.

Trausti’s outrage and desire to eliminate the non-instructional help provided by these staff, representing 2% of the cost of tuition is a step that says, “fuck you, student! I’m going to push my ideological agenda while letting you drown in high-interest loans because I only care about the 2% of your debt that offends my sensibilities.”


Student deserve better than to be used as slogans to crush attempts at diversity and equality.

 

[thebeave]

Trausti has a lot of disdain for non-instructional staff at a university. His arguments are based, so far, on a paragraph of job descritption, and whatever he thinks from reading that is the sum total of the position’s contributions.

Experience with these positions for actual college students (including my white son) shows a far more valuable picture. These “non-instructional staff” have been the people who have helped my kids as they navigate classes, class selection, internship pursuit, and connections to the job market. Including for my white son.

So if one of these DEI staff positions helps a student - or 50 students - prepare their experiences and classes for success and helps them design a resume to show their accomplishments and gets them a better job 5 months sooner, it is hardly a “fuck you student,” but rather a meaningful impact against their cost of education.

Trausti has failed completely to address the point made earlier by Loren and others that much of the sudden increase in tuition has been due to a sudden decrease in public spending and the colleges, with the same payroll, are having to collect from a new source, the student.

Reiterating my opinion from earlier, I do believe the first problem to address is funding for trades education. We need more of those people, and we need them badly. Trades are wonderful for people who would like to stay in their community. No guarantees, of course, but more likely. Trades are wonderful for those who would like to control the length of their work-week. So there are good reasons in economic need for tradespeople and benefits of trades to show that society values these skills and promotes them.

The next thing is easy-peasy, and that is to reduce interest on existing student loans immediately, to no more than corporations pay to borrow from the government. Some usurious lendors may have a problem with this, I don’t care if they hurt, they’ve been extorting people for far too long; good riddance.

And then we can work on reducing salaries that represent 2% of student tuition.

Trausti’s outrage and desire to eliminate the non-instructional help provided by these staff, representing 2% of the cost of tuition is a step that says, “fuck you, student! I’m going to push my ideological agenda while letting you drown in high-interest loans because I only care about the 2% of your debt that offends my sensibilities.”


Student deserve better than to be used as slogans to crush attempts at diversity and equality.

So, if these DEI staff will even help out white kids, where does the "diversity and inclusion" aspect of their jobs come into play? And does it take a multi-6 figure salary to help someone write a resume, select classes, find internships, etc? I could see paying some $50k per year tops for that, but to pay them more than a physician? Or CEO of a small company? Makes no sense.

Is it safe to assume that you are OK with the status quo of university DEI employees and salaries, say as presented in the UoM chart?

 

[Rhea]

So, if these DEI staff will even help out white kids, where does the "diversity and inclusion" aspect of their jobs come into play?

Glad you asked. You can ask them as well, you know. Approach with a friendly and sincere question - avoid the accusatory “are you useless” tone that presumes you know more than you do, and just ask them humbly to explain what they know and you don’t….

It comes into play by training these staff members to know what the specific barriers different kinds of student will face. In the past, it was one-size fits all, and the things they did helped some students but not others. Now they have background and training to understand the specific needs of students coming from different backgrounds, and how to help them navigate what they actually need instead of only what white men need.

Some of the training is incredibly valuable for white men who are not typical white men. If you’re not “type A” these navigators can help you recognize that and create compensations for you to use to overcome your particular weaknesses And still get the interview and succeed at it.

And does it take a multi-6 figure salary to help someone write a resume, select classes, find internships, etc?

Here you have again reduced their contributions to a single paragraph, without understanding the whole. You name it like they are an individual contributor, when this person was a director, and manages teams. A common mistake to confuse entry level or ground level employees with those who are paid to set strategies and create long-term plans and manage the performance of others.

Moreover, I expect that the people with this training are not widely found, yet, and so they can command a higher salary. Your disdain of DEI training, ironically, makes the current DEI professionals more rare and more highly compensated.

Once we can get more people to understand and embrace the value of DEI, we won’t need specialists. But at the moment, the need that the students have for this service is not met by your run-of-the-mill advisors. Ironic, that your disdain for the need is what drives the price of it, yes?

Ultimately, no, the advisor level person would not be worth 300K. Even the director may not be that high when they are easy to find and the rest of the staff is better trained. But that is not first on my list for very obvious reasons - there are far bigger problems with a better immediate impact on student cost.

I could see paying some $50k per year tops for that, but to pay them more than a physician? Or CEO of a small company? Makes no sense.

Market pressures, my libertarian friend. Market pressures. Let’s make DEI mainstream, so that all college students have access, and the cost of it will go down. You’ll note that was on my list of things to attack, but it was not in the top two.

I would note, it’s not really even my #3, because I would go after athletic administrators first.

Is it safe to assume that you are OK with the status quo of university DEI employees and salaries, say as presented in the UoM chart?

No, it is not safe to assume that you know the nuances of my opinion. I don’t operate in Duplo-Blocks version of policy. I can think in nuances.

I said:
1. Attack deficiencies of Trade School access
2. Eliminate student loan interest or replace with fed rate
3. Look at University salary structure - and I’ll add some nuance
…3.1 Examine athletic departments and recall the mission of the school
…3.2 Examine administrators
…3.3 Examine instructional staff and increase salary for full time instructors and ensure the school is not pushing people into adjunct positions against their will, paying them less and losing good instructors
.….3.4 Perform better DEI training for all staff so that distinct positions are not needed just to fill deficiencies.

 

[TomC]

Irony, coincidence, or the Lord's inscrutable wisdom?
Say Dei in a Roman Catholic setting and everyone will know what you mean. It's latin for God.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

There are roughly 48,000 full time students at the University of Michigan. You are talking about 1/48 or a 2.1% increase in students. And that assumes, of course, that all of those people are
1) "useless", and
2) not funded by specific grants for specific functions.

The DIE crowd are completely useless. And that's just one example of the administrative bloat at universities. If you let 1/3 of the non-teaching bureaucrats go, would anyone notice? Would anyone care? If the students were offered the choice of keeping the dross or a drop in tuition, which do you think they'd pick?

Please define "administrative bloat" and then please produce data-driven estimates on the cost saving.

I ask, because your example about diversity, equity and inclusion didn't show much savings (and that assumed that all of the people in your example were useless and there no grant-funds supported any positions). Which suggests to me that there is no reason to expect your "administrative bloat" reduction burp would generate much savings either.

Frankly, your rhetoric suggests you know very little at all about universities.

FFS. ....

FFS, your response is long on bs and short on facts - again. Your argument would be more convincing if you had better information to buttress your "opinion".

Diversity and inclusion efforts at universities refers to more than simply race-conscious efforts. For example, tt also refers to race-neutral groups such as first generation students, LGBTQ students, and foreign students. These efforts extend to recruiting students, helping them feel comfortable and welcome in campus, helping them with problems they may encounter, etc....
Rhea's post indicates that they help her white son at university.

 

[laughing dog]

Student deserve better than to be used as slogans to crush attempts at diversity and equality.

Amen, sister, amen.