Pay no attention to those men behind religion!

[Unknown Soldier]

Unless you haven't seen a movie since 1939, you are probably familiar with that famous line in which the Wizard of Oz exclaims: "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!" Upon the discovery that the so-called Wizard was a mere man behind a curtain who used trickery to create a frightening vision of himself complete with smoke and fire, the Scarecrow with complete justification told the Wizard that he was a "humbug."

I think that the men and women behind religion are much like the Wizard of Oz creating Gods and supposed miracles to frighten and intimidate vulnerable people. And like the Wizard, these "wizards of religion" demand that we pay no attention to the fact that it is they who are behind religion placing scary shouts into the mouths of the Gods they have created. Also, as in both the Wizard of Oz and religion, displays of threatening fire and smoke supposedly coming from the God can work wonders in controlling people getting them to do what they normally know is dangerously foolish.

The story of the Wizard of Oz also presents us with three characters, the Tinman, the Scarecrow, and the Cowardly Lion who turned to the Wizard seeking what it turned out they already had! Like these three characters, many people turn to what they hope is a higher power to find hearts (love), brains (wisdom), and courage. Yet people already have these things only needing to realize that they have them or that they need to work to nurture them. So just like the Tinman, the Scarecrow, and the Cowardly Lion never needed the Wizard to give them their hearts, brains, and courage, people don't need any God to give them hearts, brains, and courage.

Glinda the Good Witch teaches Dorothy an important lesson that if we do need help, then we should seek those who are competent to actually help us as we avoid humbugs. When it turned out that the Wizard was an incompetent buffoon unable to return Dorothy to Kansas, Glinda moved in to get the job done. So just as the Wizard symbolizes religion that fails to deliver, Glinda seems to be a metaphor for science and other effective human efforts.

While I'm not sure if Frank Baum intended his masterpiece to be allegory of religious fraud and failure, there does appear to be a lot of analogies with religion in it.

 

[steve_bank]

The Wizard Of Oz was a fraud created mostly by circunstance.

In the end the Wizard does help the Lion realize his courage, the Scarecrow realizing his intellect, the Tin Man realizing his compassion, and Dorothy realizing what really matters. What matters is believing in yourself. The storu s about three stragers who end up willing to sacrice their lives for te oters. A good kids story. and adults too.

There are always truths to mythology including religion. My favorite bible story is Job, a perenniall story. Job is a righteous good prosperous good guy on whom without warning or reason shit rains down destroying his life. In the end he despairs but is restored when he forgives his friends who turned on him. Bad things happen to good peole by forces beyond your control.

In any literature tere is an obious superficuial interpretion, and there is a picture of human rerlations and characteristics.

Or Ecclesiastes. The writer has the blues, he has to work hard at farming just to get by while birds fly around eating food without having to work and labor.

In he end he finds the answer and meaning in being part of a community. He finds purpose.

Without some kind of purpose we become cynical and bitter.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

The Wizard Of Oz was a fraud created mostly by circunstance.

What circumstance was that?

In the end the Wizard does help the Lion realize his courage, the Scarecrow realizing his intellect, the Tin Man realizing his compassion, and Dorothy realizing what really matters. What matters is believing in yourself. The storu s about three stragers who end up willing to sacrice their lives for te oters. A good kids story. and adults too.

That's a good observation. At that point in the story the Wizard had "repented" of his fraud and was acting in good faith offering sound advice to those who sought his help. He didn't offer them any magic bullets but explained to them that their solutions were literally in their grasp. All they needed to do was open their minds. The story here seems to symbolize the realization that there are no miracles or magic men in the sky to help us and that we need to find our own purpose and our own hope through effort and thinking.

There are always truths to mythology including religion. My favorite bible story is Job, a perenniall story. Job is a righteous good prosperous good guy on whom without warning or reason shit rains down destroying his life. In the end he despairs but is restored when he forgives his friends who turned on him. Bad things happen to good peole by forces beyond your control.

In any literature tere is an obious superficuial interpretion, and there is a picture of human rerlations and characteristics.

Or Ecclesiastes. The writer has the blues, he has to work hard at farming just to get by while birds fly around eating food without having to work and labor.

In he end he finds the answer and meaning in being part of a community. He finds purpose.

Without some kind of purpose we become cynical and bitter.

In other words you are saying that religious stories are allegories that are meant to convey some truths that underlie the characters, places, and events portrayed in those stories. You mentioned Job, for example. I think that the story of Job was intended to convince people that God exists and is good no matter what happens. Perhaps Frank Baum wrote the Wizard of Oz to be a counter to Bible stories like Job. If Job had seen the Wizard of Oz, maybe he would have realized he suffered because there was no God to help him and that he needed to seek help from good people like Glinda who do exist and had the power to deliver him.

 

[steve_bank]

According to the Oxford bible commentary I read in the day Job was probably about Hebrew captivity of some sort. It also said Job was likely part of a lost greater set of widsdom or teaching materials. Proverbs.

Wizard Of Oz was written as a kids book in the late 19th century I believe. Read it as a kid.

Christian ignorant literalness see only bits and pieces of literal images.

Wizard Of Oz was a love story between four individuals. It takes a real hard hearted crumdugean not to see that.

I am not that well read in general mythology, but we can go over to philosophy and talk anout analogy, metephor, amd allegory.

One of our modern myths is te pro sports hero. asball-three strikes and you are out, basketball-a slam dunk, picking up the ball and run with it. Meta[hors and allegoies are an essential part of human culture and communications.
Literal words are imadequate. Hence poetry, literature, relgion. art, and music.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

According to the Oxford bible commentary I read in the day Job was probably about Hebrew captivity of some sort. It also said Job was likely part of a lost greater set of widsdom or teaching materials. Proverbs.

Did the OBC mention the Babylonian captivity of the Jews? Israel was always being conquered by foreign powers, and the Jewish religious leaders no doubt had a tough time explaining why to the Jewish people. How could Yahweh allow that kind of suffering? The supposed prophets of Israel blamed that problem on sin among the Jews.

 

[Gospel]

And here I was thinking that in the story of Job his belief in God was the problem while his wife's act of selling her hair was symbolic of her doing real shit to address their issues. Her acts ultimately lead to things improving VIA connections as well as being seen as a hero when she died. Afterward, the nitwit Job married his brother's daughter like the weirdo he's always been.

I suppose incest is normal to Adam and Eve believers anyway.

 

[BradTheStud]

I actually have my own relationship to whomever it is I'm praying to. I don't go to church. I don't believe in a single religion. I'm just a believer of everything and I know that I can talk to whomever it is I'm talking to whenever I need or want. I don't like priests and pastors... they are too self righteous.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

And here I was thinking that in the story of Job his belief in God was the problem while his wife's act of selling her hair was symbolic of her doing real shit to address their issues. Her acts ultimately lead to things improving VIA connections as well as being seen as a hero when she died. Afterward, the nitwit Job married his brother's daughter like the weirdo he's always been.

Some Bible scholars say that when Job's wife told him to "curse God and die," she wasn't being wantonly cruel. Her advice was offered as a way for Job to put himself out of his misery. In other words, cursing God was seen as a form of suicide: the "Big Guy in the Sky" would surely kill anybody who dared to curse him.

So God, like the Wizard of Oz, was not one to trifle with or so those behind the curtain would have us believe.

 

[steve_bank]

One of my favorite scenes in Wizard Of Oz, aka proverb, is when Dorothy meets Scarecrow. She enquirers about his not have nay brains. Scarecrow replies 'There are a lot of people without brains who do an awful lot of talking...,'.



Connect with your inner Scarecrow, Does So;dier wish to put forth something other than Wizard Of Oz as an example?

The actual evidence is not a Babylonian captivity, the evdicence says Jews did well in the enpire.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Does So;dier wish to put forth something other than Wizard Of Oz as an example?

Yes. George Orwell's 1984 comes to mind. Like God Big Brother is watching you and me and all of us. Also like God Big Brother punishes thought crime. The similarities to Christianity seem too strong to be mere coincidence. It could be that writers like Baum and Orwell wish to critique Christianity in a subtle way so as to avoid incurring the wrath of Christians.

 

[Elixir]

Does So;dier wish to put forth something other than Wizard Of Oz as an example?

Yes. George Orwell's 1984 comes to mind. Like God Big Brother is watching you and me and all of us. Also like God Big Brother punishes thought crime. The similarities to Christianity seem too strong to be mere coincidence. It could be that writers like Baum and Orwell wish to critique Christianity in a subtle way so as to avoid incurring the wrath of Christians.

You writing this from thought jail?
How’s the food?

 

[steve_bank]

Does So;dier wish to put forth something other than Wizard Of Oz as an example?

Yes. George Orwell's 1984 comes to mind. Like God Big Brother is watching you and me and all of us. Also like God Big Brother punishes thought crime. The similarities to Christianity seem too strong to be mere coincidence. It could be that writers like Baum and Orwell wish to critique Christianity in a subtle way so as to avoid incurring the wrath of Christians.

I would say wrong again as an example of your point. 1984 was about several things. Mind control by propaganda and media, blind obedience, authoritarianism and communism of the day. More the 'Feurer Principle'. People tend to form in hierarchical social structures, Trump's rise to power.

Animal Farm was about the Russian Revolution. Animals kick out the farmer and ake over. Evetualy the animals in power are more corrupt and abusive than the farmer ever was. 'All animals are equal' originaly declared by the animals becomes 'All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others' ny the animals in charge.

The best example is human history itself. IMO take away god and the supernatural and religion is just another social group with a power structure.

To be clear I debate and say things on the forum about religion, That is what we are here fr. However I d not hate religion. I don't shake my fist at relgion. Out in the real world I geberaly have no problem with the around me with relgion.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I would say wrong again as an example of your point.

I don't understand what you're saying here.

1984 was about several things. Mind control by propaganda and media, blind obedience, authoritarianism and communism of the day. More the 'Feurer Principle'. People tend to form in hierarchical social structures, Trump's rise to power.

That sounds like religion to me.

Animal Farm was about the Russian Revolution. Animals kick out the farmer and ake over. Evetualy the animals in power are more corrupt and abusive than the farmer ever was. 'All animals are equal' originaly declared by the animals becomes 'All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others' ny the animals in charge.

If we change Animal Farm just a bit, it can be an allegory of religion. Say the animals insist on blindly obeying the farmer despite his penning them up, stealing their eggs and milk, and on occasion butchering them. The farmer's dog acts as the farmer's prophet convincing the other animals that it is in their best interests to continue their blind obedience to the farmer. The dog-prophet promises them that "in the end" they will reap great rewards for enduring their suffering. The farm animals, not knowing any better, are swayed by the dog-prophet to revere the farmer no matter what he does.

Now that's religion!

To be clear I debate and say things on the forum about religion, That is what we are here fr. However I d not hate religion. I don't shake my fist at relgion. Out in the real world I geberaly have no problem with the around me with relgion.

I feel the same way about any religion that encourages critical thinking and unity with others despite their differences. Do you know of any religion like that?

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

I would say wrong again as an example of your point.

I don't understand what you're saying here.

1984 was about several things. Mind control by propaganda and media, blind obedience, authoritarianism and communism of the day. More the 'Feurer Principle'. People tend to form in hierarchical social structures, Trump's rise to power.

That sounds like religion to me.

Animal Farm was about the Russian Revolution. Animals kick out the farmer and ake over. Evetualy the animals in power are more corrupt and abusive than the farmer ever was. 'All animals are equal' originaly declared by the animals becomes 'All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others' ny the animals in charge.

If we change Animal Farm just a bit, it can be an allegory of religion. Say the animals insist on blindly obeying the farmer despite his penning them up, stealing their eggs and milk, and on occasion butchering them. The farmer's dog acts as the farmer's prophet convincing the other animals that it is in their best interests to continue their blind obedience to the farmer. The dog-prophet promises them that "in the end" they will reap great rewards for enduring their suffering. The farm animals, not knowing any better, are swayed by the dog-prophet to revere the farmer no matter what he does.

Now that's religion!

To be clear I debate and say things on the forum about religion, That is what we are here fr. However I d not hate religion. I don't shake my fist at relgion. Out in the real world I geberaly have no problem with the around me with relgion.

I feel the same way about any religion that encourages critical thinking and unity with others despite their differences. Do you know of any religion like that?

Gnostic Christianity.

Esoteric ecumenists and naturalists.

Some have labelled us the only good Christians, because we condemn all genocidal gods to the imaginary hell Christianity invented.

On unity.
We are one of the few Christian sects that are universalists and cannot be homophobic and misogynous like the present day right wing Christianity.

I show Christians where they misunderstand things and they do not like it.

The bad Christians sing of Adam's sin being a happy fault and necessary to god's plan, but have forgotten how to apply that wisdom into a naturalistic religion.

In nature, if we do not sin/do evil by competing, we would go extinct.

Regards
DL

 

[Politesse]

Some have labelled us the only good Christians, because we condemn all genocidal gods to the imaginary hell Christianity invented

Where by "some", they of course mean themselves...

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Some have labelled us the only good Christians, because we condemn all genocidal gods to the imaginary hell Christianity invented

Where by "some", they of course mean themselves...

No one can argue against us and that is how we show our goodness.

Now fuck off.

Regards
DL

 

[steve_bank]

Atheists Ag inst Gnostic Christians, a small but growing movement.

 

[steve_bank]

Some have labelled us the only good Christians, because we condemn all genocidal gods to the imaginary hell Christianity invented

Where by "some", they of course mean themselves...

No one can argue against us and that is how we show our goodness.

Now fuck off.

Regards
DL

The genocidal gods of free market competition, nationalism, ethnicity, and culture gets a pass?

Agnostic The Zealot.

 

[Politesse]

Atheists Ag inst Gnostic Christians, a small but growing movement.

Please don't smear all Gnostics with the same brush, they're good people for the most part. You'd like their approach, if you met them through a congregation rather than through a pufferfish on the internet who's wearing their name as a costume. Mystically inclined but open-minded, much like yourself. I've been worshipping occasionally with Tau Rosamonde's community in San Jose for years, and I'm certain that if any of her initiates started mouthing off about being the best Christians in the world or other such nonsense, she'd be the first to gently demonstrate the root of their folly. A true bishop of the faith guides with that crozier, they do not whack over the head. But it works much better.

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Atheists Ag inst Gnostic Christians, a small but growing movement.

If you consider the 95% of Christians who claim affiliation, but are by tradition only, and do not believe, we are the vast silent majority.

There are fewer poor thinkers than we think.

Regards
DL