Did you have something relevant to add, or is your goal merely to quote all of my responses in order to say something snarky?
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Police response to N.J. mall fight sparks outrage after Black teen cuffed as white teen watches
- Thread starter ZiprHead
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I can be relevant and snarky thank you very much. For example, it's fucking obvious to just about everyone except you that race was a factor here. Even the fucking white kid thinks so.
But you go on being obtuse. Rest assured, I will remain snarky towards your bullshit bad faith arguments and everything will be fine.
That something is 'obvious' to people predisposed to think exactly what they end up thinking is not a good argument to say it is correct.
A different perspective is not obtuseness. Indeed, I have not claimed race did not play a part.
I don't know what you mean by 'bad faith' arguments, but I do know I mean everything I say.
Relax. I understand.
Interesting perspectives being expressed. I went to watch the video because some people had said, “the Black boy was already on the ground,”. Except he was not. He was on his knees, getting up, as was the white boy. he white boy was helped up and guided to the couch, the black boy was shoved roughly to the ground.
Some people said, “well the difference might not be race, it might be the female cop,” and yet when the cops arrived, which boy did the male cop go after? And why did the female cop leave the white boy unattended and turn to hep the male cop cuff the boy on the ground. The one who was on the bottom. The one who is black.
It seems like it doesn’t matter how clear it is, how many camera angles exist. There will always be a chorus of the same voices saying, ‘maybe it wasn’t race, it probably isn’t race, it might not be race, it could be this other convoluted and post hoc explanation, because I’ve been claiming there is no racism, so I have to beat that drum no matter what the video shows.’
Even when the white boy, who was there, says, “yah this was not a fair or reasonable action by the cops,” right in the linked article, these defenders will still beat the, “but it’s not racism because there is no racism” drum.
While those people are not worth talking to on the subject because they merely parrot the same shallow frantic defense every time, I suppose they do serve as a useful foil to discuss the hateful dismissal of obvious social problems and the snarly, frothing defense of bullies. Their presence helps to demonstrate, “I am not making this up. These people exist.”
Some people said, “well the difference might not be race, it might be the female cop,” and yet when the cops arrived, which boy did the male cop go after? And why did the female cop leave the white boy unattended and turn to hep the male cop cuff the boy on the ground. The one who was on the bottom. The one who is black.
It seems like it doesn’t matter how clear it is, how many camera angles exist. There will always be a chorus of the same voices saying, ‘maybe it wasn’t race, it probably isn’t race, it might not be race, it could be this other convoluted and post hoc explanation, because I’ve been claiming there is no racism, so I have to beat that drum no matter what the video shows.’
Even when the white boy, who was there, says, “yah this was not a fair or reasonable action by the cops,” right in the linked article, these defenders will still beat the, “but it’s not racism because there is no racism” drum.
While those people are not worth talking to on the subject because they merely parrot the same shallow frantic defense every time, I suppose they do serve as a useful foil to discuss the hateful dismissal of obvious social problems and the snarly, frothing defense of bullies. Their presence helps to demonstrate, “I am not making this up. These people exist.”
I don't know what you think 'on the ground' means, but if I'm on all fours, I'm on the ground.
We cannot be watching the same footage. The white boy was not 'helped' up or 'guided', he was pulled by the back of his jumper to the couch.
You appear to be discounting entirely any other explanation. You have decided it is (solely) about race and you interpret everything through that lens.
Why do you think the female cop left the white boy unattended?
It seems to me that no matter what the situation, you will always interpret every situation as racist.
We don't need Robin diAngelo telling white people to examine every single situation through the lens of race. It appears there is an army of white people already willing, ready, and able to do only that.
Swammerdami
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I wondered how Mr. Derec would respond to this.
Were the races reversed, Derec would have started a thread, and been so excited he'd have popped an IMODIUM® to help contain his glee.
Don2 (Don1 Revised)
Contributor
If you look closely at the video, you can clearly see the officers are in danger. For one thing, the Black teen is on the ground when the officers get there and as you know the ground can be used as a weapon by Black people.
TV and credit cards
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“Guided”? The white kid was compliant with the female officer. That she physically sat him on the couch was convenient in the moment. The couch was there. That he did not resist and remained seated allowed the female officer to look to her partner. She was obligated to help her partner. That is her training.
The male cop was heavy handed with the black kid. He should have attempted to physically stand him up and give him a chance to be compliant also. Instead he tackled him. He put his partner in the unfortunate position of having to help him. What would you have her do, root for the kid?
What is becoming clear to me is a lack of objectivity. We seem to have no problem drilling down to the root cause of bias in so many parts of society right down to biased algorithms. But when it comes to the police, we just scream “racist cops”. And there are. No doubt. But why? Does that not interest us? Upbringing, personality types, training programs? No one seems the least bit interested in anything other than yelling, “racist cop”. Like this is all just a source of entertainment.
Rhea appears to disagree with you.
Jimmy Higgins
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I have a couple reservations here.
1) This isn’t aimed directly at you but whites in general, we don’t give a fuck what blacks think about police treatment. We demand final oversight over judgment whether blacks are being honest about treatment from blacks. That seems pretty fucked up. We demand video coverage from the crib to the crime site.
For instance, people complained in writing about the Minnesota cop 18 times, and it was as if there was no trust at all, until the officer was video’d kneeing a neck until a guy became dead. And even then...
2) Excuses galore. Evidence exists! We’ve caught cops covering up deadly acts. But in the rare cases we have smoking gun evidence, Blacks become like rape victims, what did they do to deserve what happened to them.
This is historical, going from blatant / in your face racism to a mixture of racism and implicit bias these days (last 30 years). So Blacks complain, Whites demand evidence and then will often deny the evidence’s significance as if we need.
Being a Cop is a shit job. But they have an incredible amount of leeway, benefit of the doubt from the Judicial System and from whites, generally a blank check.
Racism, bias, circumstance, the main trouble is, Whites don’t give a fuck what Blacks think it is, like they are whiny toddlers and their White superiors need to judge for them.
Not sure why you think we have no interest in this. We’ve discussed it many times, most recently in the arena of what police reform should look like. To recap my personal top priorities”
- Number One: STOP letting cops off when they do wrong. Create a whistleblower system that allows the good cops to help regulate and eliminate bad cops. Enact full justice on cops who betray the public trust and damage their own mission by abuse. Number ONE.
- Stop valuing military people as cops. The training is different and brings people who are taught to think of people as “enemy,” and that is a terrible combination.
- Include de-escalation training and teen development understanding and stress psychology as part of required training
- Include trained social workers and psycologists as part of responding team
- Remove all ex-military weapons and gear from cops. They do not need armored carriers and tanks. That is dispicable.
And I can hold two thoughts in my head at once; “that is an example of racism, right there,” and “we have a lot to fix in the policing system that makes more incarcerated people per capita, and more people dead by cops, than any other nation.”
When the cops arrive, both boys are on their knees. One of them (the one on top, the one who was at that time wnning the fight,) is lifted up by his sweater and deposited on a couch, the cop sits next to him, checks him, she even pats him on the chest, like, “you okay”(!) then turns her back on that fighter. The other boy, also on his knees (the one on the bottom, who was a that time losing the fight), is violently shoved downward, his head hitting a planter, and manhandled immediately into cuffs.
The cops instantly thought one boy was dangerous and needed to be subdued and cuffed, and thought the other boy was safe enough to turn their backs on. They thought the boy on the BOTTOM of the fight was dangerous and needed cuffing, and the boy on the TOP of the fight was fine sitting on his own while they turned their backs.
This was the cops’ instantaneous reaction. And someone suggests, “maybe it was their upbringing, maybe it was their personality.”
Indeed. Maybe it was.
The cops instantly thought one boy was dangerous and needed to be subdued and cuffed, and thought the other boy was safe enough to turn their backs on. They thought the boy on the BOTTOM of the fight was dangerous and needed cuffing, and the boy on the TOP of the fight was fine sitting on his own while they turned their backs.
This was the cops’ instantaneous reaction. And someone suggests, “maybe it was their upbringing, maybe it was their personality.”
Indeed. Maybe it was.
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For those of you who believe other reasons are valid, why haven't you been able to enunciate them so they can be considered and evaluated?
TomC
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The thing is, I know a lot more about Jimmy than all the people involved put together. Reference posts #9 and 11. That's just for starters.
I'm once again having to explain why I'm uninclined to form a firm opinion without much evidence. Which there was little of. The white miscreant agreeing that it looked racist to him is definitely evidence, but it's new evidence. I'm very capable of changing my opinion based on new evidence. Suppose more video showed up with white kid saying "I'm sorry, officer" and black kid saying "FUCK off pig. I can't breathe!".
Would the leftist sort of racist change their minds?
Tom
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No one's given us a reason to yet.
That’s the part I don’t understand, Tom. The suggestion that we make up hypotheticals that can potentially excuse the cops’ behavior before we react to what we see. It’s when I notice that we didn’t pause to make up hypothetical stories to justify the behavior of the kid with his face smashed into a planter and his hands in cuffs while his assailant is standing, unmonitored, behind the cops.
There are some really achingly obvious observations that are (asked to be) put on pause while we imagine stories that can justify what we see without using racism.
Let’s list the facts first. Let’s see if there’s a need to make up hypotheticals that can clear the cops so that we don’t have to see any racism.
Fact: The cops arrived to find a white boy on top of a black boy.
Fact: one cop pulls the white boy off the top of the black boy, and does not restrain him.
Fact: that cop turns her back on the boy who was on top of the fight and stops monitoring him.
Fact: He (top boy) stands back up, and they still don’t care what he’s doing.
Fact: the other cop takes the boy on his hands and knees and slams him to the ground, pushing his face into what looks like a planter or large trash receptical.
Fact: Cop immediately pulls out handcuffs and cuffs the boy who was on the bottom of the fight, while still not monitoring the boy who was on the top.
Fact: both cops put their knees on this boy’s back, while the other boy (the one on the top of the fight, remember,) stands behind them, unmonitored.
Fact: They only ever cuffed one boy.
Fact: they only ever arrested one boy.
Fact: the unarrested boy agrees that it was unjust and unreasonable.
Now,
Opinion: There is no evidence that either boy had time to say a single word to the cops.
Opinion: There is no evidence that anything at all happened to justify handcuffs for a punching fight in a mall.
And you want me to imagine a possible scenario that explains why none of that, especially the bit about arresting only the boy on the bottom of the fight! is related to reaction-level unplanned racism.
Why? Why woould I do a flip and a twist and a douple pike to NOT USE the clear evidence?
There are some really achingly obvious observations that are (asked to be) put on pause while we imagine stories that can justify what we see without using racism.
Let’s list the facts first. Let’s see if there’s a need to make up hypotheticals that can clear the cops so that we don’t have to see any racism.
Fact: The cops arrived to find a white boy on top of a black boy.
Fact: one cop pulls the white boy off the top of the black boy, and does not restrain him.
Fact: that cop turns her back on the boy who was on top of the fight and stops monitoring him.
Fact: He (top boy) stands back up, and they still don’t care what he’s doing.
Fact: the other cop takes the boy on his hands and knees and slams him to the ground, pushing his face into what looks like a planter or large trash receptical.
Fact: Cop immediately pulls out handcuffs and cuffs the boy who was on the bottom of the fight, while still not monitoring the boy who was on the top.
Fact: both cops put their knees on this boy’s back, while the other boy (the one on the top of the fight, remember,) stands behind them, unmonitored.
Fact: They only ever cuffed one boy.
Fact: they only ever arrested one boy.
Fact: the unarrested boy agrees that it was unjust and unreasonable.
Now,
Opinion: There is no evidence that either boy had time to say a single word to the cops.
Opinion: There is no evidence that anything at all happened to justify handcuffs for a punching fight in a mall.
And you want me to imagine a possible scenario that explains why none of that, especially the bit about arresting only the boy on the bottom of the fight! is related to reaction-level unplanned racism.
Why? Why woould I do a flip and a twist and a douple pike to NOT USE the clear evidence?
TomC
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Do y'all remember when Nicholas Sandmann was convicted(in the court of the internet) of assaulting a Native American elder? Do you remember what the evidence was? It was a bit of video.
The "MAGA hat wearing teen", and his family and school and community, got death threats. I read over 1000 posts on DailyKos alone that were utterly vile.
I still don't believe that Chauvin killed Floyd, I think fentanyl killed Floyd.
No, I don't make up my mind based on modern media, especially social media. There's too much incentive to lie, especially in that extra useful way, the partial truth. It's just too profitable to lie about hot button issues like this. Clickable makes money, a balanced and researched report doesn't.
From the lefties to the righties, dishonest media sells. We live in a post truth media world, where what matters is how much you can push people's buttons. How accurate and complete you story is remains utterly unimportant.
Tom
Nicholas sandmann was not “convicted in the court of internet” of “assualting” anyone. He was \clearly not assaulting. He looked like he was being an asshole. I don’t rememeber people hear saying it was “assault.” Maybe I’m not remembering clearly. You remember “assault”?
So you made up your mind somehow…. But others cannot make up their minds?
But you did make up your mind about Floyd, you say. And since you probably were not in either the coronoer’s office or the court room, it was likely by media?
For the police as well, yah?
Watching the video, seeing what they saw, is not someone’s made up dishonest money maker. It’s a video of the events. None of the facts I list as being from the video are “spun.” Those are things we can all see.
It sells to the silent center, as well. Dishonest media makes you doubt what you see. And be willing to hand the win to one side while telling yourself you are not taking sides. I’m genuinely not laying blame on you or thinking “complicit,” or any other aggressive statement. But don’t fool yourself into thinking you are just a bystander in your society when you claim you have not made a conclusion. Just like in courts, if the appeals does not take the case, then the existing judgment stands. When you say, you have not made up yoour mind, you are agreeing to the staus quo - the one where one boy was handcuffed, and another, doing the same thing! was not.
It appears so, yes.
southernhybrid
Contributor
I watched the video twice. To me, it looked as if the cop certainly treated the Black teen very differently than the White teen was treated. I grew up in New Jersey. NJ is the most segregated place I've ever lived. There are many towns in NJ that don't have a single Black person living in them. imo, NJ is more racist than most of the South. It's just usually more subtle since people rarely live near each other. There are some predominately Black cities in NJ that have a high rate of crime. These cities also suffer from a high rate of poverty. Crime rates are often higher in areas that are high in poverty. My guess is that these cops have formed bias against Black folks based on all of these factors. They may not be aware of their bias, but the video makes it obvious to me that they judged a Black teen very differently from a White teen.
What freaked me out the most, is that the cops put a knee on the boy's back and neck. WTF! Didn't they learn anything after the Floyd murder? Luckily the teen wasn't subdued long enough to be hurt, but anyone who doesn't see the racist elements in this incident either wasn't paying attention or perhaps hasn't realized their own bias. It's interesting that the White kid admitted that he had been treated more respectfully than the Black kid. The White kid now seems aware of his privilege.
What freaked me out the most, is that the cops put a knee on the boy's back and neck. WTF! Didn't they learn anything after the Floyd murder? Luckily the teen wasn't subdued long enough to be hurt, but anyone who doesn't see the racist elements in this incident either wasn't paying attention or perhaps hasn't realized their own bias. It's interesting that the White kid admitted that he had been treated more respectfully than the Black kid. The White kid now seems aware of his privilege.