How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[Tigers!]

It looks like Russia is off my list of places to visit along with Iran, Saudi Arabia, North Korea, and China.

But they have such great weather.
And the food!

 

[Jayjay]

Sweden and Finland?

• Rattled by Russia, Finland and Sweden revisit NATO debate
• Will Finland and Sweden Join NATO?
• NATO - Opinion: Press conference with NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg, the Minister for Foreign Affairs of Finland, Pekka Haavisto and the Minister for Foreign Affairs of Sweden, Ann Linde, 24-Jan.-2022

Though neither country is a NATO member, they have both had a long history of cooperating with NATO.

Sweden has not been in a war for two centuries. Its last war was in 1814, against Norway, in the Napoleonic Wars. Sweden stayed out of both WWI and WWII, and over the Cold War, did not join NATO.

Finland was ruled by Sweden in the 18th cy., then by Russia in the 19th cy. as the Grand Duchy of Finland. Toward the end of WWI, Finland became independent. In WWII, Finland fought the Soviet Union, losing some territory in the southeast, including the city of Vyborg / Viipuri.

During the Cold War, Finland had a policy of being conciliatory to the Soviet Union no matter what, and many people feared that other European nations may end up doing that, something they called "Finlandization".

A minor nitpick, but it was Germans who came up with the word and at the time nobody in Finland used it, and were even offended by the accusations. Big part of Finlandization is to not admit Finlandization.

But both countries are now having plenty of discussion of joining NATO.

And I hope they do join eventually. Ukraine is an example what happens to Russia's neighbours who are not in NATO.

 

[Toni]

And piece of Poland they got BEFORE the war,

I had a Russian girlfriend in the 90s. She was taught that the Second World War began on June 22, 1941. That was interesting.

Yeah. As every American knows it started on December 7, 1941.

And WWI started on April 6, 1917.

Americans are taught WWII started September 1, 1939. Maybe Aussies get something different.

I don't know what Aussies are taught, I emigrated here as an adult.

But I am aware that WWII started with the Marco Polo Bridge Incident, on July 7, 1937. And I have met plenty of Americans who were adamant that it didn't start until December 1941.

Both England and Australia have plenty of ignorant people. And arrogant ones as well.

 

[Toni]

You'd lose

Nope, try harder.

Nope what? The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth never happened?

What part of "land that Russia lost in WW1" don't you understand?

What part of Poland did Russia lose in WWI?

 

[barbos]

You'd lose

Nope, try harder.

Nope what? The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth never happened?

What part of "land that Russia lost in WW1" don't you understand?

What part of Poland did Russia lose in WWI?

What part of "land that Poland grabbed from Russia in WW1" don't you understand?
And Yes, Poland did grab some land from other well known country before WW2.
Of course nobody wants to talk about because Poland was/is a democracy.
There was a whole lot more land grabbing back then than you think.

 

[steve_bank]

It looks like Russia is off my list of places to visit along with Iran, Saudi Arabia, North Korea, and China.

But they have such great weather.
And the food!

I would have to sew my mouth shut.

 

[Hermit]

You'd lose

Nope, try harder.

Nope what? The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth never happened?

What part of "land that Russia lost in WW1" don't you understand?

That is not what you asked. Stealth editing only works when the original is either edited accordingly or no longer available. You asked

I bet did not know is that Poland and few other countries (other than germany) were grabbing land before WW2 as well

 

[barbos]

And I hope they do join eventually. Ukraine is an example what happens to Russia's neighbours who are not in NATO.

You got it wrong. Ukraine is an example of what happens to Russia's neighbours who WANT to join NATO. And Finland is an example of the opposite.

 

[barbos]

You'd lose

Nope, try harder.

Nope what? The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth never happened?

What part of "land that Russia lost in WW1" don't you understand?

That is not what you asked. Stealth editing only works when the original is either edited accordingly or no longer available. You asked

I bet did not know is that Poland and few other countries (other than germany) were grabbing land before WW2 as well

Yep, Poland did grab land before WW2, sharing it with...... none other than Hitler himself

 

[steve_bank]

For a long time we see daily reports of global tradgedy and catastrophe in the news. I have become desensitzed.

That being said, I feel for the Ukrainians. They are facing eradication as a people and culture. I am starting to tink maybe NATO shoud have responded. Are we going down the path of appeasement?

Putin said he is going to "de Nazify Ukraine'. It is not hard to imagine what that will mean.

 

[steve_bank]

Barbos is like a white American who refuses to acknowledge slavery actually happened and has consequences, or says it was not really all that bad.

I read several books on WWII. When the Germans entered Ukraine the people initially looked at them as liberators for the Soviets. Putin will restore the oppression.

How long before Russian is again mandatory in schools?

 

[barbos]

Barbos is like a white American who refuses to acknowledge slavery actually happened and has consequences, or says it was not really all that bad.

Sorry, but no, it is you who deny history.

Munich Agreement - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Hermit]

And piece of Poland they got BEFORE the war,

I had a Russian girlfriend in the 90s. She was taught that the Second World War began on June 22, 1941. That was interesting.

Yeah. As every American knows it started on December 7, 1941.

And WWI started on April 6, 1917.

Americans are taught WWII started September 1, 1939. Maybe Aussies get something different.

I don't know what Aussies are taught, I emigrated here as an adult.

But I am aware that WWII started with the Marco Polo Bridge Incident, on July 7, 1937. And I have met plenty of Americans who were adamant that it didn't start until December 1941.

The Marco Polo Bridge incident is generally regarded as the start of the Second Sino-Japanese War.
The Gleiwitz incident on the night of 31 August 1939, a false flag operation, is generally regarded as the start of the second world war.

 

[Toni]

You'd lose

Nope, try harder.

Nope what? The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth never happened?

What part of "land that Russia lost in WW1" don't you understand?

What part of Poland did Russia lose in WWI?

What part of "land that Poland grabbed from Russia in WW1" don't you understand?
And Yes, Poland did grab some land from other well known country before WW2.
Of course nobody wants to talk about because Poland was/is a democracy.
There was a whole lot more land grabbing back then than you think.

I’m aware of a lot of land grabbing for centuries prior to the 20th century.

 

[barbos]

I’m aware of a lot of land grabbing for centuries prior to the 20th century.

And all of that was done by Russia.....



Replace word "flag" with word ''''democracy''''
Please note, quad quotes there are for a reason.

 

[SLD]

Well so much for my prediction. Fucker did it. Let’s see how it goes. Give ‘em hell, Ukraine.

 

[barbos]

Give ‘em hell, Ukraine.

What would be the point?

 

[Jayjay]

In any case, that is likely to drive the unconquered parts of Ukraine much closer to NATO, and Sweden and Finland may end up joining that alliance.

Do you know what I think really happened? US "diplomats" pressured these countries to say that.

That's laughable. You could make a case that Ukraine, who is no desperately depending on support from US, could be pressured to make pro-NATO statements, there is the counterpoint that due to Putin's warmongering, NATO is really now the only option for them. But to say the same about Sweden or Finland is just beyond the parody horizon. Neither of those countries has said they will join NATO, but the public opinion in both has shifted and it's becoming a talking point. Not due to US pressure, but because of Russia's belligerence.

 

[barbos]

In any case, that is likely to drive the unconquered parts of Ukraine much closer to NATO, and Sweden and Finland may end up joining that alliance.

Do you know what I think really happened? US "diplomats" pressured these countries to say that.

That's laughable. You could make a case that Ukraine, who is no desperately depending on support from US, could be pressured to make pro-NATO statements, there is the counterpoint that due to Putin's warmongering, NATO is really now the only option for them. But to say the same about Sweden or Finland is just beyond the parody horizon. Neither of those countries has said they will join NATO, but the public opinion in both has shifted and it's becoming a talking point. Not due to US pressure, but because of Russia's belligerence.

Public is generally stupid. And your own president sent Ukraine a message just a couple of days ago.

And you are really naive if you think US does not pressure their EU partners.
They totally do, they pressure Germany, they pressure Finland and they pressure Sweden. They admit that themselves.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

The invasion has begun. Putin has demanded military forces of Ukraine at Kyiv surrender. Kyiv is some 300 miles from the Dombass breakaway republic. This is an act of war on an independent nation that in no way can threaten Russia in any major way. Putin is now a war criminal. It is obvious Pootie saw his chance to make a land grab slipping through his fingers and decided to act and to hell with the consequences. February 23, 2022. A day of infamy.