Police response to N.J. mall fight sparks outrage after Black teen cuffed as white teen watches

[Gospel]

Be right back, folks. Heading home from work and plan to stop at the liquor store.

one kid was struggling to get away

What video were you watching? I didn't see either kid try to evade the police. I wager that it's all in your

 

[Gospel]

Racism exists, therefore all differences are race-based?

Nope. Not at all. You imagine that's what I meant.

Back to this other thing you posted (whatever it was)

: different behaviors elicit different responses.

What were the different behaviors?

What would be racist is assuming that the boy that calmed down within 3 seconds while obeying the cops orders MUST have been the white one, and the one that tried to run away from the cops, after looking right at them, MUST have been the black one.

Is this make-believe land again? what is the connection to the evidence?

None... this is what racism would look like. That it is not "connected" to the evidence is exactly WHY this does not look to be racially driven.. This is an odd thing for you to ask. It's like we are talking about the police and you say that cops use PHASERS. I correct you and say no, they use TASERS.. PHASERS are from Star Trek.... and then you respond "is this sci fi? what does Star Trek have to do with this"

You seemed to equate my considering the police officers' behaviors a violation of Husain's civil rights with mistaking Phasers for Tasers. In that equivalency, the Phaser is racism (the violation of Husain's civil rights) and the taser represents a different theory. It was fair for me to deduce that you claimed racism isn't real. No matter, that's not what's important here. I'm simply trying to understand what the basis for your argument is. One thing I understand is you think I believe every instance of police error or misbehavior is racist. Not true, and I'm not going to dig up old posts of me to inform you when you can get out of imaginary land and look for yourself.

 

[Metaphor]

True, but you have argued you can infer thought from words and actions. Apparently you feel you are unique in that ability. Is that hiw you came up with the whopper about Hossain volunteering to be handcuffed?

There are no words to infer from, unless somebody has a transcript of dialogue between the male cop and female cop (or can confirm that no words were spoken during the crucial time).

Yes, I can infer through actions and I have never denied so. For example, I said 'when the female cop touched Franco on the stomach, it seemed like an action consistent with 'stay there'. I did not say she was thinking any particular thoughts.

Your last charge is beyond bizarre and absolutely false. I did not claim Husain volunteered to be handcuffed. I claimed Franco volunteered to be handcuffed. There is a part in the video where Franco stands up and moves towards the female cop with his hands down. It is not clear what he is doing but he later said in an interview that he offered to get cuffed as well, after Husain had been cuffed. The physical movements consistent with that offer seems to have been captured on camera.

 

[Gospel]

epends on what you mean by "trust", because obviously one can "trust" that someone is not getting ready to stab you in the face or run away, without "trusting" them to manage your 401k retirement account, or feed your pets while away. So, yes, she trusted him enough not to murder anyone for at least the next few seconds while she helped stop the other guy from running away.

trust: firm belief in the reliability, truth, ability, or strength of someone or something.

Do you agree or disagree that the female officer trusted Franco to not leave, or cause trouble at any time during the video? Here I'll quote the post where I shared what seems to be the best version out there. And if so l repeat, what was it about Franko that after (as you put it) a 3-second conversation she was able to trust him. Did Franco pinky promise? Or was she a psychic, where neither her fellow officer, herself nor another bystander would be in any danger because she saw the future?

I'll post the tweet just ignore the source and check the video. I'd like to add that he may have said individual instead of official. For example "let's go talk to the individual". Either way sounded like he wanted to get something clarified but the criminal continued behaving as if he wasn't there to talk.

 

[Gun Nut]

I wonder if there are any other videos of either cop working that can show if either of them act differently with suspects based on race? That a male cop was rough with the suspect and the female cop was less rough with the suspect is simply not enough information to make a judgement on racism in my opinion.... other people may have other opinions, like "when white people and black people are in the same room, racism happens"

 

[Gospel]

Also, if you can remove the cloud of imagination, you can see Franco is resisting the female officers and gesturing to Husain as if to say "it's not me it's him". (not in those exact words). But you can't see that because.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Gospel]

I wonder if there are any other videos of either cop working that can show if either of them act differently with suspects based on race? T

Neither of these cops is racist in my opinion. I believe they committed a racist act.

 

[Gun Nut]

trust: firm belief in the reliability, truth, ability, or strength of someone or something.

Argument by Webster? Really?
She trusted her assessment that she could turn her attention away from him without getting herself or anyone else killed.

But, if you think that cold definitions of words, floating on an island devoid of context or natural use of language is a good argument... then checkmate:

Racism: the belief that different races possess distinct characteristics, abilities, or qualities, especially so as to distinguish them as inferior or superior to one another.

Where in the video do you see what the officer believes?

 

[Gospel]

Argument by Webster? Really?

You said

Depends on what you mean by "trust",

My actual argument (if you've managed to escape your own mind) cannot be found in the dictionary.

 

[Gospel]

But, if you think that cold definitions of words, floating on an island devoid of context or natural use of language is a good argument... then checkmate:

I didn't say that either. You said "depends on what I mean by trust" and I offered what I meant. You seem to think I had to lay out distinct acts in the video to explain to you to want I meant by trust when I don't. The real question (if you'd get out of imagination land) would have been what is it about the officers actions that make you think she trusted Franco and I would have explained. Regardless that is just another manifestation from an imaginary land. FYI - Being black in America is not a game of fucking chess.

Racism: the belief that different races possess distinct characteristics, abilities, or qualities, especially so as to distinguish them as inferior or superior to one another.

Where in the video do you see what the officer believes?

The female officer believed Franco wasn't a threat. based on how she handled Franco The male officer believed Husain was a threat based on how he handled Husain. Both Husain and Franco were doing the exact same thing. when the police arrived. Why did they believe something different leading to the treating one of the individuals fighting differently?

 

[Metaphor]

The female officer believed Franco wasn't a threat. based on how she handled Franco The male officer believed Husain was a threat based on how he handled Husain. Both Husain and Franco were doing the exact same thing. when the police arrived. Why did they believe something different leading to the treating one of the individuals fighting differently?

Without inferring anything about what either cop believed, Franco and Husain were not in the exact same position when the police arrived.

Franco was on top of Husain. Husain was on all fours. The police pulled/pushed Franco off, who went backwards and was seated on the couch nearby. Husain was already on the ground when Franco was pulled off and the male cop kept him there. The female cop would have had to put Franco on the ground (treating him objectively 'worse' than Husain) in order for him to be on the ground alongside Husain. Or, the male cop would have had to pick up Husain. (And honestly, I do not think, without Franco actually complying, that the female cop could have brute forced him to the ground).

The boys were not in the same situation to begin with, when the cops arrived.

 

[Gospel]

ranco and Husain were not in the exact same position when the police arrived.

Position. So they were in violation of the law because of the position they were in? Man, here I was thinking it was for assaulting each other.

 

[Metaphor]

ranco and Husain were not in the exact same position when the police arrived.

Position. So they were in violation of the law because of the position they were in? Man, here I was thinking it was for assaulting each other.

No. I did not say that Gospel. I very obviously was talking about their physical positions, which you know because you quoted from the post where I go into detail about it.

 

[Gospel]

Franco was on top of Husain. Husain was on all fours. The police pulled/pushed Franco off, who went backwards and was seated on the couch nearby. Husain was already on the ground when Franco was pulled off and the male cop kept him there. The female cop would have had to put Franco on the ground (treating him objectively 'worse' than Husain) in order for him to be on the ground alongside Husain. Or, the male cop would have had to pick up Husain. (And honestly, I do not think, without Franco actually complying, that the female cop could have brute forced him to the ground).

Nonsense. The female officer did not need to put Franco on the ground to handcuff him. Police handcuff people in sitting and standing positions all the time.

 

[Gospel]

No. I did not say that Gospel. I very obviously was talking about their physical positions, which you know because you quoted from the post where I go into detail about it.

I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. I was telling you what law enforcement was there for. Both Franco and Husain from the officer's perspective was committing assault.

 

[Metaphor]

Franco was on top of Husain. Husain was on all fours. The police pulled/pushed Franco off, who went backwards and was seated on the couch nearby. Husain was already on the ground when Franco was pulled off and the male cop kept him there. The female cop would have had to put Franco on the ground (treating him objectively 'worse' than Husain) in order for him to be on the ground alongside Husain. Or, the male cop would have had to pick up Husain. (And honestly, I do not think, without Franco actually complying, that the female cop could have brute forced him to the ground).

Nonsense. The female officer did not need to put Franco on the ground to handcuff him. Police handcuff people in sitting and standing positions all the time.

I did not say she needed to put Franco on the ground to cuff him. I said she would have needed to put him on the ground in order for Franco and Husain to be in the same position. Or, the male cop would have had to pick up Husain from his being on the ground.

Please stop putting words in my mouth.

 

[Metaphor]

No. I did not say that Gospel. I very obviously was talking about their physical positions, which you know because you quoted from the post where I go into detail about it.

I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. I was telling you what law enforcement was there for. Both Franco and Husain from the officer's perspective was committing assault.

My post was very clearly talking about the physical positions of each boy, and the geography of the place where the fight took place.

Had there been no couch, we don't know what would have happened to Franco.
Had Husain been on top of Franco, instead of the other way around, when the police arrived, we don't know what would have happened.

The boys were not in the same physical positions to begin with.

 

[Gospel]

I did not say she needed to put Franco on the ground to cuff him. I said she would have needed to put him on the ground in order for Franco and Husain to be in the same position. Or, the male cop would have had to pick up Husain from his being on the ground.

Please stop putting words in my mouth.

So you believe that in order for the officers to enforce the law evenly they had to position both people in the exact same position? That's silly. And again, I did not put words in your mouth. You said they were in different positions as if that mattered to the act of assault. Now you're doubling down stating that in order for the officers to avoid showing special treatment they'd have to put Franco on the ground as well. That is also not true.

Now, why did one person committing assault required handcuffs while another committing assault doesn't?
Why did one person who committed assault require two officers to put on handcuffs while another person who committed assault is left unattended?

 

[Gospel]

I understand both of your positions and respect it. I think we took this as far as we could.

Thanks for your time

 

[Metaphor]

So you believe that in order for the officers to enforce the law evenly they had to position both people in the exact same position?

No, I am saying that the people who see racism in these actions are saying it because the boys were treated differently. They were treated differently (at least in part) because they were already in different positions when the cops arrived.

You said they were in different positions as if that mattered to the act of assault. Now you're doubling down stating that in order for the officers to avoid showing special treatment they'd have to put Franco on the ground as well. That is also not true.

No, I am saying that when Franco was put on the couch, the immediate response to that by some people on this thread was that he was 'gently guided' to the couch, while Husain was 'violently shoved to the ground' (even though Husain was already on the ground).

Now, why did one person committing assault required handcuffs while another committing assault doesn't?
Why did one person who committed assault require two officers to put on handcuffs while another person who committed assault is left unattended?

I have already said this many, many, many times and we are probably at an impasse.

I did not say one of them 'required' cuffs and the other didn't. I said they were in different physical positions and they were attended to by different cops.

Now you tell me, Gospel. Do you believe this controversy is solely because of the cuffing? If Husain had not been cuffed but the video was otherwise exactly the same, that there would not be accusations of racism? That if Franco had been cuffed, but the video was otherwise exactly the same, there would not be accusations of racism?