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Police response to N.J. mall fight sparks outrage after Black teen cuffed as white teen watches

No, I am saying that the people who see racism in these actions are saying it because the boys were treated differently. They were treated differently (at least in part) because they were already in different positions when the cops arrived.

And I'm saying that their physical positions are not why the officers were there to enforce the law.
No, I am saying that when Franco was put on the couch, the immediate response to that by some people on this thread was that he was 'gently guided' to the couch, while Husain was 'violently shoved to the ground' (even though Husain was already on the ground).

Well, that's unfortunate. Nothing to do with me though because I didn't make that gaff or intentionally misleading statement.

I have already said this many, many, many times and we are probably at an impasse.

Yes, we are. I may not agree, but I respect your opinion.

I did not say one of them 'required' cuffs and the other didn't. I said they were in different physical positions and they were attended to by different cops.

Again, Law enforcement wasn't there because of the position Frank and Husain were in. Law enforcement wasn't there because one officer was female and the other was male. They were there to enforce the law indiscriminately.

Now you tell me, Gospel. Do you believe this controversy is solely because of the cuffing? If Husain had not been cuffed but the video was otherwise exactly the same, that there would not be accusations of racism? That if Franco had been cuffed, but the video was otherwise exactly the same, there would not be accusations of racism?
I can only speak for myself. Absolutely not. I would have taken note that the male officer was very close to using excessive force and wouldn't argue against anyone who made that claim.
 
wonder if there are any other videos of either cop working that can show if either of them act differently with suspects based on race? That a male cop was rough with the suspect and the female cop was less rough with the suspect is simply not enough information to make a judgement on racism in my opinion.... other people may have other opinions, like "when white people and black people are in the same room, racism happens"

If It's a consolation, I believe Kim Potter should have been found not guilty. I get a lot of heat from my family and friends but that's just how I see it. I truly believe she mistook her Taser for a gun. If there was ever a time in America where race relations between black people and white people whereas Martin Luther King detailed in his dream, that may have been the response from the black community. Regrettably, because of the history of utter fuck ups by the Us police and America's involvement in the transatlantic slave trade, and the use of the police force during the civil rights movement, that is not the case. I feel she was the victim of the wrongdoings of other people that look like her. It truly saddens me.
 
Don't get it twisted. I am also deeply saddened that Daunte Wright isn't alive today.
 
OR.. you can ask what the nature of their 3 second conversation was for a far more simple explanation as to why the cop was satisfied that the boy wasn't a threat or a flight risk.

I'll humor you anyway. So the cop trusted Franko based on a 3-second conversation? Is that what you're saying?

I think it's much more behavior than words.
 
I think it's much more behavior than words.

Behavior? He was resisting the female officer in the video with his right arm and slightly leaning away while gesturing towards Husain as if he was saying "not me that guy". If anything she believed whatever statement he made over his actual physical interaction. Do you not see that in the video?
 
Honestly, it seemed to me like she did not even want to do anything with Franco and just needed an excuse to let him go. His words were enough for her to leave Franco unattended and assist the male officer with a NON-RESISTING Husain.

Edit: By needing an excuse to let him go I don't necessarily mean that is a bad thing. It was teens fighting, which is normal shit in my opinion. The female officer likely understood that. Her error was assisting the male officer and ultimately (according to Franco) never putting cuffs on Franco If she wanted the law to be executed indiscriminately without going against the male officer. Going back to Franco and remembering his request to be indiscriminate by handcuffing him would have been the correct choice. But she ultimately took Franko's initial response as gold and moved forward with the Husain is the guy narrative.
 
It's how they executed the law that makes it racist. Not the officers themselves. Hell, I don't fucking know either of them personally. I don't know how they conducted themselves in other situations. Its just in this one, they fucked up.
 
At 47 seconds into the video, exactly at the moment both cops come into frame again, the video completely freezes for 2 seconds (I tried reloading and replaying several times - it happens every time). It isn't until 49 seconds into the video (a full 5 seconds after the cops arrive, not 0.25) that the video jumps back to life and the black kid is on the floor with the male cop on top of him, and the white boy is still being pulled into the couch by the female cop.


My video does not freeze, Not sure what is wrong with your browser, but my plays the whole thing. I’m using the one gospel posted
Notice, however, the the boy on the bottom is not in a position to see cops arrive, so he won’t be saying anything to them before the grab.

The female cop grabs top boy at 27sec. Several frame into 27sec.
Male cop tackles bottom boy at 28 seconds. early in 28 secs because several more frames play while still at 28 secs.


That makes it a fraction of a second.


Femal cop reaches for top boy: 27 sec mark
96755418-38B6-484F-8109-8597DF4261A6.jpeg



Female cop makes contact. Still 27 secs.


D57FD0F6-274C-4CEA-9ED1-50BCBE834503.jpeg



Boy in front stand up, cop behind has hands on bottom teen. At 27 secs.
Boy infront finishes standing, cop pushing down kneeling teen. Now just turns 28 secs.



94CD4A95-FE51-44E7-B437-8B8DC109C6AD.jpeg



28 secs. Cop is pressing down bottom boy.


05D2C256-A764-413B-859C-2E4044529915.jpeg


Still 28 secs.
6DBAFB05-49D7-4CD6-8A8C-B9470E438945.jpeg



Still 28 secs

617DF946-CD47-4F14-A180-3DDB44EA34E7.jpeg

Still 28 secs


F3C0BFBA-61BC-4DC6-A216-2DF8BA0E5FC8.jpeg



Now it turns to 29 secs.
8C9A0078-4102-4E5F-B9F5-EBBB2A8E89F6.jpeg



So I disagree with your claim that 5 secs went by. The time tamp shows much less than one second.

That cop never gave the boy on the bottom a chance to “give up”. No chance at all.


Meanwhile, here’s the female cop “not kneeling on his neck.”

033511FB-52B8-4F8B-8636-C6239008570F.png
 
the immediate response to that by some people on this thread was that he was 'gently guided
My dear boy, you should go back and notice that the person to introduce the word “gently,” was you.

It’s not surprising that a fabricated straw man is the basis of the tactic to avoid seeing racism.
Your initial description of the action speaks for itself and is still up for everyone to see.

Are there any circumstances whatsoever that could change your mind that this incident was racist? Is there any current unknown that you think is possible that would change your mind? If so, what?
 
Are there any circumstances whatsoever that could change your mind that this incident was racist?
Perhaps a strong body cam record of 100 incidents where he _didn’t_ behave like this.
 
:staffwarn:

Address the argument, not the person.
Off topic derails into personal insults will be deleted. It violates the TOU, and interrupts the discussion.
 
Now, why did one person committing assault required handcuffs while another committing assault doesn't?
Why did one person who committed assault require two officers to put on handcuffs while another person who committed assault is left unattended?
I have already said this many, many, many times and we are probably at an impasse.

I did not say one of them 'required' cuffs and the other didn't. I said they were in different physical positions and they were attended to by different cops.

Now you tell me, Gospel. Do you believe this controversy is solely because of the cuffing? If Husain had not been cuffed but the video was otherwise exactly the same, that there would not be accusations of racism? That if Franco had been cuffed, but the video was otherwise exactly the same, there would not be accusations of racism?
Umm... if the officer wasn't cuffing the teen on the ground, why would he be on top of him like that? That'd actually make it worse, as the officer would be physically restraining one teen but not the other.
 
Also, if you can remove the cloud of imagination, you can see Franco is resisting the female officers and gesturing to Husain as if to say "it's not me it's him". (not in those exact words). But you can't see that because.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Still waiting for an acknowledgment of this. Watch the video. The female officer seemed to be trying to get Franco to do something, It's not clear what (put cuffs on him maybe?) but she changed her mind when Franco resisted and gestured towards Husain. She responded to what Franco said by turning her attention away from Franko and to a nonresisting Husain to kneel on Husain and "help" the male officer cuff a nonresisting Husain.

Franco was given a chance to comply, Franco refused and didn't get cuffed. Husain wasn't given a chance to comply & was cuffed.

Meanwhile, on this thread, we have people claiming Husain resisted when Hussain didn't even look at the officer when he was tackled. I'll even go as far as saying he didn't look at either officer until he was lifted up and put on the tacky mall furniture.

Was it the female officer's fault for not wanting to deal with Franco? Correct me if I'm wrong but Metaphor seems to believe it's because she's female why she didn't deal with Franco. Makes sense, what doesn't make sense is that a male officer is also present, and Franco (if we're allowing witness statements) said he was never handcuffed. The male officer had plenty of time to secure Franco but did not according to Franco. This confirms that both officers saw Husain as the threat and Franco as no threat which is a bias.

Bias Based on what though? I have no idea. Both kids were committing the exact same crime at the exact same time when the officers arrived so.... :unsure:
 
Also, if you can remove the cloud of imagination, you can see Franco is resisting the female officers and gesturing to Husain as if to say "it's not me it's him". (not in those exact words). But you can't see that because.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Still waiting for an acknowledgment of this. Watch the video. The female officer seemed to be trying to get Franco to do something, It's not clear what (put cuffs on him maybe?) but she changed her mind when Franco resisted and gestured towards Husain. She responded to what Franco said by turning her attention away from Franko and to a nonresisting Husain to kneel on Husain and "help" the male officer cuff a nonresisting Husain.

Franco was given a chance to comply, Franco refused and didn't get cuffed. Husain wasn't given a chance to comply & was cuffed.

Meanwhile, on this thread, we have people claiming Husain resisted when Hussain didn't even look at the officer when he was tackled. I'll even go as far as saying he didn't look at either officer until he was lifted up and put on the tacky mall furniture.

Was it the female officer's fault for not wanting to deal with Franco? Correct me if I'm wrong but Metaphor seems to believe it's because she's female why she didn't deal with Franco. Makes sense, what doesn't make sense is that a male officer is also present, and Franco (if we're allowing witness statements) said he was never handcuffed. The male officer had plenty of time to secure Franco but did not according to Franco. This confirms that both officers saw Husain as the threat and Franco as no threat which is a bias.

Bias Based on what though? I have no idea. Both kids were committing the exact same crime at the exact same time when the officers arrived so.... :unsure:
Gospel - I love you, but the crimes are different when the skin color is different.
 
@laughing dog I love you too, but I don't believe in the Abrahamic religion of which that notion was maliciously born. Curse of Ham my ass.
 
What happened was so obviously racist, that it's disappointing that some of you don't realize it. As Gospel said, the cops may not hold terrible racists beliefs about black Americans, but they've been environmental influenced by living in a very segregated society, by being victims of the negative generalizations that they've heard about black people, etc

NJ is the most segregated state I've ever lived in, and I've lived in 7 states. Just the other day, I met a fantastic black RN who grew up in Philadelphia, just across from NJ. She told me that in her opinion, the Northeast is far more racist than many parts of the South. I told her that it was good to finally meet someone who understood that. So, these police, like many police and white people, often hold a bias, a belief that somehow black people are scarier or more likely to be violent, even when there is no direct evidence of that in a given situation. What happened in this situation was just a reflection of how young black males are treated compared to young white looking males. Fortunately, no physical harm was done, but emotional harm, especially when it becomes repetitive, can lead to anxiety and depression among other things. Even the other boy knew what was happening, as it was so obvious.

People hold all kinds of prejudice, often without any awareness. They are victims of what they've been told, and until someone helps them understand that what they've been told is wrong, nothing will change. I'm not sure just how or if we can change things, but I know as a person who lives in a place that is very racially integrated when it comes to our schools, our work places, our neighborhoods and even our senior center, that being together and interacting with each other often helps those who hold biases realize that skin tones have nothing to do with character.

My city isn't perfect but we've come a long way in the 23 years that I've lived here. 23 years ago, some asshole painted KKK on the front of a home occupied by our first black neighbors. Now, our neighborhood is becoming more racially integrated each year. We also have lots of mixed race marriages and relationships. For the most part, people respect and care about each other. Now, if the Christians could get their churches more integrated.......


Gospel, you did an awesome, job of explaining this situation. It's enjoyable to read you very rational posts. None of us have experienced what you have. Thanks for putting up with us.:dancing:
 
southernhybrid white people have proven to be great allies in the fight against inequality. People like you alive today, people like you that was alive yesterday and people like you to come in the future have every reason to feel proud of being white. You already know this, people don't need to experience racism to understand it, listening is all that's required.
 
southernhybrid white people have proven to be great allies in the fight against inequality. People like you alive today, people like you that was alive yesterday and people like you to come in the future have every reason to feel proud of being white. You already know this, people don't need to experience racism to understand it, listening is all that's required.
We white people hear very not good. Have a tendency to think our experience is universal.

So really, blacks are to blame for not having our universal experience. ;)
 
OR.. you can ask what the nature of their 3 second conversation was for a far more simple explanation as to why the cop was satisfied that the boy wasn't a threat or a flight risk.

I'll humor you anyway. So the cop trusted Franko based on a 3-second conversation? Is that what you're saying?
Depends on what you mean by "trust", because obviously one can "trust" that someone is not getting ready to stab you in the face or run away, without "trusting" them to manage your 401k retirement account, or feed your pets while away. So, yes, she trusted him enough not to murder anyone for at least the next few seconds while she helped stop the other guy from running away.

I just timed myself saying, "Thank you officer, I'm glad you're here. That guy just tried to kill me". and then replying to myself "you're OK Stay right there". That (make-believe) conversation took 2.5 seconds.... before you ask what this has to do with reality I will tell you <sigh>... it tells us how much information can potentially be exchanged in 3 seconds.
So, do you think that if the female cop had been put in charge of the black kid and he asserted that the white-ish kid just tried to kill him (more believable since the black kid was on bottom when the police arrived) she would have believed the black kid in that 2.5 second convo?

Why or why not?

Do you think it mattered that it was a female cop who sat a kid (any kid) down and a male cop who pushed the other kid down and cuffed him?
 
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