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Compatibilism: What's that About?

you don't get to choose your physical makeup
Yes, we do. We choose our physical makeup every time we have a thought and as a result make a decision.

Oh, goody, you got to choose where you would be born, you chose your parents, your genetic makeup, your circumstances, language, culture, society, brain architecture, cognitive abilities....you have done all of this through the magic of free will?

How, pray tell, do you think you choose your physical makeup every time you have a thought? I eagerly await your thesis.

Sorry, DBT, but Jarhyn is correct. Every time you have a thought, every time you recall an event, you change your neural structure, reinforcing certain pathways and allowing others to delete.

I thought we were done rehashing this?

You were getting the neuroscience wrong, so I stepped in. The other stuff you are getting wrong seems to be too firmly grasped to pry you away from them.


Except that I wasn't getting neuroscience wrong, Jarhyn was. I support what I say with information from neuroscience, which I quote and cite. We don't choose to alter the system, especially not through an act of will. The system is being changed by inputs, which become our feelings, thoughts and actions milliseconds later.

That is what the evidence supports. That is what I refer to, quote and cite.

It is not 'you' that changes the condition of the system, especially not through will. but information acting upon the system.

'You' includes the very system that you're discussing, the human brain and its neural architecture. One of the functions of that brain happens to be modeling 'you' as a specific object in the real world, along with the chair you sit on, the computer where you type your comments, etc. Another function of that system is to explain, both to yourself and others, what 'you' are currently doing or what it was that 'you' did, and why 'you' did it (Gazzaniga's "interpreter").

Equivocation. The general 'you' is not the agency of decision making. That is specifically the brain. Furthermore, not only the brain as a whole, but specific regions of the brain, some input emotion, others memory and higher reasoning.

This is not regulated by the general 'you' - it is specifically brain function.

''I am my brain, therefore free will'' is not a valid argument because it ignores the nature of decision making, agency and determination.


The system knows the difference between itself and external objects. And it has reportable knowledge of certain aspects of itself, such as its own thoughts and feelings, but lacks reportable knowledge of the internal mechanisms producing these thoughts and feelings. All it knows is that it thinks and it feels, and that these thoughts and feelings are the stuff by which it must explain what it is doing.

The system is constantly changing itself. Although it comes with a brief portfolio of innate behaviors, the vast majority of its behaviors are acquired through learning. And learning always changes the system. It is how the system adapts itself to the challenges of its environment. This adaptation is performed by the system upon itself, not by direct manipulation of individual neurons, but by conscious attention to the task at hand. It's how we learn first to crawl, then walk, and then run. After the skill is acquired it becomes automatic, and we do it with little if any conscious attention.

The system constantly changes because inputs act upon neural network in the form of information acquisition and processing.

The information state of any processor is constantly changing. The whole universe is constantly changing, not because change is being freely willed, but because everything interacts in a dynamic system.

Everything changes.

The brain changes, therefore free will, is not an argument. It is equivocation.

That's all I have time for.
 
Except that I wasn't getting neuroscience wrong
Yes. You were.
I support what I say with informationRed Herrings from neuroscience

We don't choose to alter the system
I think we've demonstrated in several ways how one may choose to alter the system: self-scolding alters the system. Writing down a list of things instead of "trying to remember them" alters the system. Meditating alters the system. Studying alters the system, all products of internally held •••.
what I refer to, quote and cite...
Does not really have any bearing on discussions of the specific piece that does the processing. That piece is "me". The narration and reflection of internal data back to that piece HELPS me, so I can analyze and correct on their feedback, but those feedbacks are not me. You keep trying to pretend there's no thing in here doing review.

As I've said, nothing you point to actually bears any problems for ••• nor for it to be °°°. In fact it seems to indicate MORE sophisticated ••• that are more likely to be °°° assuming nobody has electrodes stuck in my head.
The general 'you' is not the agency of decision making.
I dare say it is! The general YOU, whose thoughts are narrated to you milliseconds later, that is stringing syllables together to type them at me, is the agency that is stringing those syllables together in the moment that you are. Period. Your ••• is °°° to type it.

Just like serial killers and child molesters ought work really hard to develop and hold ••• whose sum requirement is "kill yourself" and carefully look for any opportunity to enact it such that it shall be °°°.

"I am the part of my brain that assembles, checks, and executes ••• with the expectation that those wills are °°° and well represent the sum total of requirements among ••• held and executed to keep "this" at the top of it's hierarchy of needs, while not knocking anyone down on THEIR hierarchy of needs."

I get ••• from observing "people execute lists of instructions" and I get °°° from observing "lists of instructions generally have success metrics, and they don't always get checked off".

I get "I may hold a °°° •••" from the conjunction of those observations.

It's trivially observable given that the piece that is delivering this statement of "I" is very clearly managing to get text formatted in a very particular way directed through this system for which to say it. The hands do not move on their own. A ••• directs them, and the absence of any kind of impediment to my doing so proves it is a °°° •••>
 
The brain is not subject to manipulation when choosing what to have for dinner.
Explain why most adds about food come at dinner time then.
The manipulation by a television ad is neither coercive nor undue. It will not force you to do something against your will. If it did, then you would buy everything that you saw advertised. Consider the restaurant menu, with attractive photographs of different dinners. They can certainly influence you, but not unduly so.

But in most of the cases of brain anomalies that DBT reports from neuroscience sources, we're talking about a brain with a specific flaw in a specific area, that causes a deficit that may directly affect the person's ability to choose. Or, the results of a study involving direct manipulation of a specific area, to cause a specific effect. For example, the manipulation of the area that produces a sense of confidence in one's choice can directly alter the choosing process. The point of such experiments is to locate specific functions within specific areas of the brain.
Yeah, part of my job is cracking open massive systems and prodding them in specific ways to find where bug behaviors may be manifesting.

I realize that just because I personally can provoke a bug somewhere, that doesn't mean the bug that I'm seeing elsewhere only comes from there, or that it originated there, or any of that.

I have to find the original decision that sent up the bug.

Watching this bullshit over neurology and groping experiments there is like someone prodding an avionics package with a few bits, finding out that "this particular program controls the flaps, nothing else must be doing that!" and pretending there is no FMS in there that is controlling everything including the flap controller.

@DBT

Information acting on, and out and through the system, is a "will".


No, it is not. It is function.

Function is determined by the construction or architecture of the object, the mechanism, be it biological or artificial.

Equating function with will is false.

It's ridiculous on several levels. Machines simply function as they are designed, they don't feel the need to act, they don't feel the will or desire to do something.

Animals feel hope, fear, desire. Animals have both functions - determined by the physical makeup of their brain - and will: the urge or prompt that is consciously experienced, to carry out an action, to achieve a goal, to fulfill a desire.

Function and will are two different things. Function determines will. Function shapes and forms our will. Will is not self-determining, will itself is not free.

That which is determined is - by definition - not freely chosen.*

Your error lies in the fallacy of equivocation. You equate function and will in an attempt to justify compatibilism.


*What Does Deterministic System Mean?
''A deterministic system is a system in which a given initial state or condition will always produce the same results. There is no randomness or variation in the ways that inputs get delivered as outputs.''
 
No, it is not. It is function.
Would you prefer the term •••? We can use the term ••• if you need to. Nice, tightly defined, no second definition that you can Ad Dictum at.

"Function" is •••, is "will". As in "this arbitrary function assembled momentarily from some neurons "will" direct behavior towards this requirement.

Whether it reaches the requirement indicates concretely whether it was °°°.
Function is determined by the construction or architecture of the object, the mechanism, be it biological or artificial.
Which changes in conformity as a result of fairly well-understood mechanisms of back-propagation.

Also, there are aspects to the "construction" or "architecture" that amount to transitive memories.

This means that the "function" may be provided entirely "in lambda" or "in script".

Machines simply function as they are designed, they don't feel the need to act, they don't feel the will or desire to do something
You are making several very unfounded statements, especially we don't know what it is like, what is "felt" by the machine.

My expectation is that you are entirely wrong: computers being what they are feel near absolute needs to act, an entirely physically irresistible desire to behave as they do.

To be determined, is by definition, to be "willed, and freely so".

As to which will was free to determine the outcome, if any beyond "the will of blind nature", is a question that may be reasonably answered, particularly once one has accepted that ••• may either be free to requirement or not.

The goal is to make sure that everything from blind nature and otherwise doesn't manage to detail the •••, such that it is observably °°°.
 
I support what I say with information from neuroscience, which I quote and cite.

And I just quoted information from neuroscience to you, which points out that conscious awareness plays an active role in the control of behavior:

Michael Graziano said:
"Awareness helps direct signals in the brain, enhancing some, suppressing others, guiding choices and actions." -- Graziano, Michael S. A.. Consciousness and the Social Brain (p. 36). Oxford University Press. Kindle Edition.

It is a two-way street, DBT. Information flows constantly within the brain itself between its various functional areas as needed. When conscious awareness is needed it automatically becomes available. When not needed, the brain puts things on autopilot.

A toddler, learning to walk, is very conscious of the effects of each step he takes. After acquiring skill, he will run about the house with no thought about what his feet are doing. Until we buy him a pair of roller skates. Then he starts all over, hyper conscious, as he learns a new skill.

We don't choose to alter the system, especially not through an act of will. The system is being changed by inputs, which become our feelings, thoughts and actions milliseconds later. That is what the evidence supports. That is what I refer to, quote and cite.

That is just a snippet of brain function. You have posted other quotes yourself in which neuroscience confirms that the brain makes decisions that govern our actions, and that those actions in turn affect the course of our lives.

The brain's system is not being changed directly by external input. The brain chooses which inputs it will deal with from moment to moment. For example, it may screen out feelings of hunger or the need to urinate while it is concentrating upon its current task, and only notice them when the task is done.

The brain's deliberate choice sets its own intention upon completing a specific task. And the task may require specific bodily actions as well as further brain work. Intention is volition and volition is will. So, the claim that "will plays no role" is neurologically false.

The only role of neuroscience in the question of free will is to explain the physical and biological functions that support the commonly observed behavior called "choosing". Neuroscience dispels the notion of ghosts and spirits and souls, which are often associated with free will by people holding beliefs in the supernatural.

But to us secularists, free will is not a supernatural ability, but simply the common ability of every human being to deliberately choose what they will do, when free of coercion and undue influence.

Equivocation. The general 'you' is not the agency of decision making. That is specifically the brain. Furthermore, not only the brain as a whole, but specific regions of the brain, some input emotion, others memory and higher reasoning. This is not regulated by the general 'you' - it is specifically brain function.

Hmm. Reverse equivocation. What I mean is this: If it is "equivocation" to say that the general 'you' is the agency of decision making, then it would be equally "equivocation" to say that it is not the agency of decision making.

In the real world, the real brain presents itself to the world as a real person. It is the person who ordered the salad, and the person who is expected to pay the bill. To suggest that it is not the person, but only the specific functional area of the brain that is responsible for paying the bill, presents us with an absurdity.

The exception would be a case where a specific area of the brain is malfunctioning. In that case, we will not hold he person, but just that malfunctioning area responsible, and we would attempt to correct the malfunction medically. After the malfunction is repaired, the person will pay the bill she owes of her own free will, because, after all, she did order the salad.

''I am my brain, therefore free will'' is not a valid argument because it ignores the nature of decision making, agency and determination.

It is not "I am my brain, therefore free will", but rather "I am my brain, therefore I made the decision".

The "nature of decision making" is that the brain inputs two or more options, applies some criteria of comparative evaluation, and outputs a single choice, usually in the form of an "I will X", where X is what we intend to do.

The nature of "agency" is that the person's own brain made the decision (that which decides what will happen next is exercising executive control).

The nature of "determination" is that the outcome is reliably caused by prior events. The causal mechanisms can include physical forces, biological drives, and rational deliberation. A reliably caused event will be caused by some specific combination of these mechanisms.


The system constantly changes because inputs act upon neural network in the form of information acquisition and processing.

Again, that's backward. It is not the information acting upon the system. It is the system that is constantly acquiring information through its sensations of both the external and internal environment. It feels hungry (internal), so it finds and eats a sandwich (external).

I only make this point to avoid the passivity that you imply by speaking of things outside the system controlling (acting upon) the system. The system is doing the controlling. The external inputs, like the menu in the restaurant, are not controlling the choice. The woman herself is controlling the choice. The executive control rests with the woman, not the menu.

The information state of any processor is constantly changing. The whole universe is constantly changing, not because change is being freely willed, but because everything interacts in a dynamic system.

Just a quick reminder: the brain's own decision making fixes the brain's own will, which motivates and directs the brain's subsequent actions until that will is satisfied.

And "wills" can even stack in a hierarchy like computer subroutines:
Leaving-work-to-go-home calls
...(Having-dinner-at-Ruby-Tuesdays which calls
......(Choose-from-the-menu-what-to-have-for-dinner, which tells the waiter "I will have the Chef Salad", and exits to)
...finishing having dinner at Ruby Tuesdays, paying the cashier, and exits to)
driving home.
 
Anyway I'm not going to try to show how doing so would permit us to integrate all into a pretty nice deterministic package. That can't be done unless you buy into that which is determined from the outside and that which is determined from within.

I find it simplifies things to presume perfectly reliable cause and effect inside, outside, and even at the quantum level. Causal necessity then becomes a grand triviality that is easily dismissed.
Presumption or exclusion doesn't work. If it's there it needs explaining. Ignoring isn't simplifying it's omitting. That which isn't completely explained needs explaining to be understood.
 
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Anyway I'm not going to try to show how doing so would permit us to integrate all into a pretty nice deterministic package. That can't be done unless you buy into that which is determined from the outside and that which is determined from within.

I find it simplifies things to presume perfectly reliable cause and effect inside, outside, and even at the quantum level. Causal necessity then becomes a grand triviality that is easily dismissed.
Presumption or exclusion doesn't work. If it's there it needs explaining. Ignoring isn't simplifying it's omitting. That which isn't completely explained needs explaining to be understood.
Hard Determinism of the gaps!

You do not need to explain everything entirely to prove aspects of it.

I don't need to explain how a brain parses a list to watch a brain parse a list. I just have to hand them a list to parse and ask if it can be parsed by them.

Then I have concrete answers: this IS a set of arbitrary instructions towards a requirement; that arbitrary set of instructions towards a requirement is definitionally a •••, concrete and observable.

And in the answer, it has been meaningfully (if perhaps incorrectly) evaluated on °°°. The math works.

The issue is more that some people don't want to do the math.

Those who are afraid of what it says on account of the fact that they kill people or hurt children should accept that their next victim should be themselves.
 
No, it is not. It is function.
Would you prefer the term •••? We can use the term ••• if you need to. Nice, tightly defined, no second definition that you can Ad Dictum at.

"Function" is •••, is "will". As in "this arbitrary function assembled momentarily from some neurons "will" direct behavior towards this requirement.

Whether it reaches the requirement indicates concretely whether it was °°°.
Function is determined by the construction or architecture of the object, the mechanism, be it biological or artificial.
Which changes in conformity as a result of fairly well-understood mechanisms of back-propagation.

Also, there are aspects to the "construction" or "architecture" that amount to transitive memories.

This means that the "function" may be provided entirely "in lambda" or "in script".

Machines simply function as they are designed, they don't feel the need to act, they don't feel the will or desire to do something
You are making several very unfounded statements, especially we don't know what it is like, what is "felt" by the machine.

My expectation is that you are entirely wrong: computers being what they are feel near absolute needs to act, an entirely physically irresistible desire to behave as they do.

To be determined, is by definition, to be "willed, and freely so".

As to which will was free to determine the outcome, if any beyond "the will of blind nature", is a question that may be reasonably answered, particularly once one has accepted that ••• may either be free to requirement or not.

The goal is to make sure that everything from blind nature and otherwise doesn't manage to detail the •••, such that it is observably °°°.


There are no unfounded statements in what I said. On the contrary, what you appear to claim is not only unfounded, but patently absurd.

To ascribe feelings and desires, to machines is not only unfounded, but patently absurd.

Machines are not conscious.

To feel needs, wants or desires, requires consciousness. When unconscious, you feel nothing....which is why they use anesthetics in surgery.

Machines function unconsciously....to state the obvious.

Your ''we change ourselves every time we make a decisions' was bad enough....now machines have feelings?

Please stop, the silliness is too much. My sides are splitting with laughter.
 
I support what I say with information from neuroscience, which I quote and cite.

And I just quoted information from neuroscience to you, which points out that conscious awareness plays an active role in the control of behavior:


Nobody denies that conscious awareness plays a role. The question in terms of free will is 'what role does it play?'

That is what I have addressed.

Your quotes do not support the idea that consciousness plays the role of free will.

Gazzaniga's experiments - which I think you quoted, show that actions are determined unconsciously, which are then represented in conscious form along with a narrator function.


''Experiments on split-brain patients reveal how readily the left brain interpreter can make up stories and beliefs. In one experiment, for example, when the word walk was presented only to the right side of a patient’s brain, he got up and started walking. When he was asked why he did this, the left brain (where language is stored and where the word walk was not presented) quickly created a reason for the action: “I wanted to go get a Coke.”

Even more fantastic examples of the left hemisphere at work come from the study of neurological disorders. In a complication of stroke called anosognosia with hemiplegia, patients cannot recognize that their left arm is theirs because the stroke damaged the right parietal cortex, which manages our body’s integrity, position, and movement. The left-hemisphere interpreter has to reconcile the information it receives from the visual cortex—that the limb is attached to its body but is not moving—with the fact that it is not receiving any input about the damage to that limb. The left-hemisphere interpreter would recognize that damage to nerves of the limb meant trouble for the brain and that the limb was paralyzed; however, in this case the damage occurred directly to the brain area responsible for signaling a problem in the perception of the limb, and it cannot send any information to the left-hemisphere interpreter. The interpreter must, then, create a belief to mediate the two known facts “I can see the limb isn’t moving” and “I can’t tell that it is damaged.” When patients with this disorder are asked about their arm and why they can’t move it, they will say “It’s not mine” or “I just don’t feel like moving it”—reasonable conclusions, given the input that the left-hemisphere interpreter is receiving.'' - Michael Gazzaniga.




Michael Graziano said:
"Awareness helps direct signals in the brain, enhancing some, suppressing others, guiding choices and actions." -- Graziano, Michael S. A.. Consciousness and the Social Brain (p. 36). Oxford University Press. Kindle Edition.

It is a two-way street, DBT. Information flows constantly within the brain itself between its various functional areas as needed. When conscious awareness is needed it automatically becomes available. When not needed, the brain puts things on autopilot.

All actions being fixed at any given moment in time: inputs acting upon the immediate state and condition, determining the action taken.

Determinism 101 - Determined actions are not freely chosen actions.

A toddler, learning to walk, is very conscious of the effects of each step he takes. After acquiring skill, he will run about the house with no thought about what his feet are doing. Until we buy him a pair of roller skates. Then he starts all over, hyper conscious, as he learns a new skill.

Unconscious brain activity processes information which is fed into conscious activity and response. Input precedes unconscious processing, which precedes conscious thought and action by milliseconds.

Neuroscience 101.

We don't choose to alter the system, especially not through an act of will. The system is being changed by inputs, which become our feelings, thoughts and actions milliseconds later. That is what the evidence supports. That is what I refer to, quote and cite.

That is just a snippet of brain function. You have posted other quotes yourself in which neuroscience confirms that the brain makes decisions that govern our actions, and that those actions in turn affect the course of our lives.

Sure, that is correct. But that doesn't mean that inputs acting upon the immediate state of the system, producing conscious thought and action has anything to with free will.

It is the deterministic process of cognition. Free will has no role to play; inputs in, output determined, made conscious, action taken as determined.

That is the nature of determinism.

What Does Deterministic System Mean?
''A deterministic system is a system in which a given initial state or condition will always produce the same results. There is no randomness or variation in the ways that inputs get delivered as outputs.''

The brain's system is not being changed directly by external input. The brain chooses which inputs it will deal with from moment to moment. For example, it may screen out feelings of hunger or the need to urinate while it is concentrating upon its current task, and only notice them when the task is done.

Nope, if information is acquired by the senses, say visual, that information is transmitted by the optic nerves to the visual cortex, processed, integrated with memory function to enable recognition....then we see something.

''The visual cortex of the brain is the area of the cerebral cortex that processes visual information. It is located in the occipital lobe. Sensory input originating from the eyes travels through the lateral geniculate nucleus in the thalamusand then reaches the visual cortex. The area of the visual cortex that receives the sensory input from the lateral geniculate nucleus is the primary visual cortex.....'' - Wiki.

The brain's deliberate choice sets its own intention upon completing a specific task. And the task may require specific bodily actions as well as further brain work. Intention is volition and volition is will. So, the claim that "will plays no role" is neurologically false.

Structure and function, not deliberation. Information is processed according to sets of criteria and priorities....a truck bearing down/jump, comes before checking messages on the phone.

Abstract
''To successfully interact with objects in the environment, sensory evidence must be continuously acquired, interpreted, and used to guide appropriate motor responses.

For example, when driving, a red light should motivate a motor command to depress the brake pedal. Single-unit recording studies have established that simple sensorimotor transformations are mediated by the same neurons that ultimately guide the behavioral response. However, it is also possible that these sensorimotor regions are the recipients of a modality-independent decision signal that is computed elsewhere.

Here, we used functional magnetic resonance imaging and human observers to show that the time course of activation in a subregion of the right insula is consistent with a role in accumulating sensory evidence independently from the required motor response modality (saccade vs manual).

Furthermore, a combination of computational modeling and simulations of the blood oxygenation level-dependent response suggests that this region is not simply recruited by general arousal or by the tonic maintenance of attention during the decision process. Our data thus raise the possibility that a modality-independent representation of sensory evidence may guide activity in effector-specific cortical areas before the initiation of a behavioral response.''
 
There are no unfounded statements in what I said
What you said is entirely based on unfounded statements.


To ascribe feelings and desires, to machines is not only unfounded, but patently absurd
To fail to do so, to fail to understand where feelings and desires come from and what they are in the first place, is patently nonsensical.

As it is I guess I need to throw "absurd" into my "list of concepts DBT does not understand".

Many things in the universe are absurd. The fact the 4d20 all came up 1 was absurd, it was a 1:20^4 absurd outcome!

We are machines made of meat and flesh. To deny "feeling" on the basis of mechanical provenance is exactly the dualism that you claim to reject.


Machines are not conscious
We are machines. We are conscious.

Ergo...

Machines may be conscious.

Machines function unconsciously....to state the obvious to make an assertion fallacy
Much better.
Your ''we change ourselves every time we make a decisions' was bad enough....now machines have feelings?
Yes, both of those things are true. It's not that they "have" feelings, rather are entirely and irrationally driven by those feelings to inexorable outcomes.

I find it interesting the fallacies people pick up from watching certain fiction, the ideas that machines don't have feelings. More, they lack the ability to ignore their feelings, to have conflict in their feelings for the most part. Quit farming your understandings of what machines can do and accomplish from Star Trek maybe?
 
Anyway I'm not going to try to show how doing so would permit us to integrate all into a pretty nice deterministic package. That can't be done unless you buy into that which is determined from the outside and that which is determined from within.

I find it simplifies things to presume perfectly reliable cause and effect inside, outside, and even at the quantum level. Causal necessity then becomes a grand triviality that is easily dismissed.
Presumption or exclusion doesn't work. If it's there it needs explaining. Ignoring isn't simplifying it's omitting. That which isn't completely explained needs explaining to be understood.
Hard Determinism of the gaps!
I explain the gaps by positing that subjective is derivative to objective. What explains will is through examination of subjective arising out of objective principles of determinism. They are corollary, outcomes, of facts.
 
Anyway I'm not going to try to show how doing so would permit us to integrate all into a pretty nice deterministic package. That can't be done unless you buy into that which is determined from the outside and that which is determined from within.

I find it simplifies things to presume perfectly reliable cause and effect inside, outside, and even at the quantum level. Causal necessity then becomes a grand triviality that is easily dismissed.
Presumption or exclusion doesn't work. If it's there it needs explaining. Ignoring isn't simplifying it's omitting. That which isn't completely explained needs explaining to be understood.
Hard Determinism of the gaps!
I explain the gaps by positing that subjective is derivative to objective. What explains will is through examination of subjective arising out of objective principles of determinism. They are corollary, outcomes, of facts.
No, you just keep waving gaps. We are talking about objects, pure and simple, and what those objects will do, and why they will do that thing.

Such as "the ball bearing will fly through the air and then go through that hole, on account of being collided with by that other ball bearing midair."

The ball bearing is not free to it's original trajectory. Its trajectory is constrained by an outside force to a new vector.

These are objective facts.

We have defined °°° and ••• to be things observably extant in determined systems which render a particular kind of math on responsibility into sensibility.

It is math, admittedly, that indicates that serial killers and child molesters should kill themselves.
 
Jarhyn said:
No, you just keep waving gaps. We are talking about objects, pure and simple, and what those objects will do, and why they will do that thing.

Such as "the ball bearing will fly through the air and then go through that hole, on account of being collided with by that other ball bearing midair."

The ball bearing is not free to it's original trajectory. Its trajectory is constrained by an outside force to a new vector.

These are objective facts.

We have defined °°° and ••• to be things observably extant in determined systems which render a particular kind of math on responsibility into sensibility.

fromderinside said:

As I, a retired neurophysiological psychologist, understand things about the brain. There is no thing identified as consciousness or mind anywhere in the brain, nor are there will, or choice. Those are all subjective placeholders for functions presumed carried out mostly in the brain with a lot of help from adrenal, liver, pancreatic, and other hormone producers in the body. These functions don't work as cause effect functions but rather with a lot of give and take with other subjective functions like memory, and bodily history functions also being carried out at all times producing consciousness and awareness, yes subjective state engines.

In fact the brain takes in internal and external sensory and status information form within the being and brings them together with sensory input and such as balance and attending, another subjective placeholder, and produces what we call conscious behavior.

Remember what is input to the eye is different than what the eye reports. This situation enables the existence of a subjective persona, another subjective presumed thing, which deal with these internal troubles with the knowing of the real world.

And this is the theater of subjectively derived illusions you are trying to ram in with the obvious determined nature or the world. You are much worse than Camus. He didn't know any better.
 
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There is no thing identified as consciousness or mind anywhere in the brain
There is no thing YOU have identified as such. It's clearly a process, though, and one we can understand to the point of reproducing large portions of it in substantially similar function.

Just because you have a hard time understanding the exact form of the mechanism by which brains give rise to the material phenomena of "consciousness" does not make it go away. It is given rise to by material structure or it would not be experienced at all.

That which does not exist cannot be experienced.

What you call "subjective" function is object functions of extant systems. Period.

While it is not as cleanly laid out or clearly identifiable or systematically similar between instances in real life as when we reproduce parts through formulary makes no difference to the fact that this is clearly what is being implemented by the brain in various interesting and sometimes rather novel forms.

Most importantly, one of the functions that takes place is review and analysis of the will, the operating set of instructions, in context of some requirement.

The brain undeniably can operate on arbitrary and even highly abstract instructions.

The brain undeniably has material ••• same as a Turing machine.

And then it's undeniably calculable whether some ••• is °°° on the basis of the requirements with respect to the goal conditions laid out in the •••.
 
There is no thing identified as consciousness or mind anywhere in the brain
There is no thing YOU have identified as such. It's clearly a process, though, and one we can understand to the point of reproducing large portions of it in substantially similar function.

Just because you have a hard time understanding the exact form of the mechanism by which brains give rise to the material phenomena of "consciousness" does not make it go away. It is given rise to by material structure or it would not be experienced at all.

That which does not exist cannot be experienced.

What you call "subjective" function is object functions of extant systems. Period.

While it is not as cleanly laid out or clearly identifiable or systematically similar between instances in real life as when we reproduce parts through formulary makes no difference to the fact that this is clearly what is being implemented by the brain in various interesting and sometimes rather novel forms.

Most importantly, one of the functions that takes place is review and analysis of the will, the operating set of instructions, in context of some requirement.

The brain undeniably can operate on arbitrary and even highly abstract instructions.

The brain undeniably has material ••• same as a Turing machine.

And then it's undeniably calculable whether some ••• is °°° on the basis of the requirements with respect to the goal conditions laid out in the •••.
I did not say they don't exist. I said there in no identified locations for such. I presume subjective state as the result of incomplete representation of reality to a being living in the real world.

It is here here the illusions are carried out across each of us and among all mankind. What we are dealing with are illusory models of behavior presuming the subjective features are reality.

I dealt with these models for more than 30 years professionally. I am acutely aware of how often we reverse direction on what is what and how this becomes that. Daniel Wegner, Benjamin Libet, and even Patrick Haggard finally agree free will has not been proved.

Finally when it comes to the  Neuroscience of free will there is continuing argument about readiness potential and veto limits in neurophysiological studies.
 
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There are no unfounded statements in what I said
What you said is entirely based on unfounded statements.

Wrong. I pointed out that machine function is determined by the design of the machine. The parts interact and function as designed without consciousness or will.

If you are claiming that your computer has consciousness or will, your claim is patently absurd and unfounded.


To ascribe feelings and desires, to machines is not only unfounded, but patently absurd
To fail to do so, to fail to understand where feelings and desires come from and what they are in the first place, is patently nonsensical.

If you believe that feelings and desires are featured in the mechanics of your car, computer or television, your claim is patently nonsensical

As it is I guess I need to throw "absurd" into my "list of concepts DBT does not understand".

Many things in the universe are absurd. The fact the 4d20 all came up 1 was absurd, it was a 1:20^4 absurd outcome!

We are machines made of meat and flesh. To deny "feeling" on the basis of mechanical provenance is exactly the dualism that you claim to reject.

My comment was not in relation to people. You are playing a dishonest game.

What you said was: ''My expectation is that you are entirely wrong: computers being what they are feel near absolute needs to act, an entirely physically irresistible desire to behave as they do.''

Your remark was specifically about non-human machines, that computers feel the need to act.

Stop equivocating. It's not clever. It's ludicrous.

Machines are not conscious
We are machines. We are conscious.

Ergo...

Machines may be conscious.

Wow, clever..not. Equivocation doesn't work: ''computers being what they are feel near absolute needs to act, an entirely physically irresistible desire to behave as they do'' - Jarhyn.


I find it interesting the fallacies people pick up from watching certain fiction, the ideas that machines don't have feelings. More, they lack the ability to ignore their feelings, to have conflict in their feelings for the most part. Quit farming your understandings of what machines can do and accomplish from Star Trek maybe?

Your fallacy of equivocation is on display. Your game is based on building strawmen.
 
The parts interact and function as designed without consciousness or will.
Assertion fallacy countered by the fact I am a machine and the parts clearly have an exposed will and an exposed consciousness.


If you are claiming that your computer has consciousness or will, your claim is patently absurd and unfounded
My computer clearly has a will when I turn it on. The will is exposed by the BIOS code and operation combined with the OS code.

All that code is a will.

Whether the computer is strictly "conscious" I expect that it must be like something to be a computer, namely dominated by irresistible emotive forces.

Again, lots of things are absurd. You are absurd I am absurd, humans are absurd. Absurd happens every day.

Re: absurdism.
If you believe that feelings and desires are featured in the mechanics of your car, computer or television, your claim is patently nonsensical
Do you even understand what desires are in this case? What role they play?

Transistors are binary neurons with binary biases and fixed connection weights also mostly operating in binary.

It's hard to put the mind through the exercises that "get one there" to the point where they can understand this.

Our emotions can be resisted by agency specifically because their connections are mutable, their biases incomplete, and their activation coming to a defeatable threshold, for the most part.

This renders them mostly unable to have a conflicted thought and have to make a value judgement or even unable to consider their actions.

This equates to operating 100%* of the time on motive impulse that is so strong it equates to physical force surety.




*except when the system is very carefully designed to have a "consideration function".


My comment was not in relation to people
People are machines. Period. This is the requirement of determinism.

People are machines. People feel emotion. Therefore machines may feel emotion.
Your remark was specifically about non-human machines, that computers feel the need to act.
No, my remark was about both. Both are machines. Both feel a need to act.

The need to act according to instructions has nothing that will allow conflict with the driver of behavior. It's "emotions" dominate that behavior. That you have a hard time placing yourself under the concerns of that alien mind is your own issue.

Humans are machines. Humans feel emotions. Therefore machines may feel emotions. Understanding how and why and when emotions are felt and their purpose in information processing systems and what causes the phenomena, it takes a bit of work and cleverness to figure out.

But you go on thinking that's no-true-scotsman.

As I said, quit getting your ideas on where emotions come from from Star Trek
 
I did not say they don't exist. I said there in no identified locations for such. I presume subjective state as the result of incomplete representation of reality to a being living in the real world
We can be wrong about the universe. This is why we can possibly hold ••• that will not be °°°, and think it is. Our internal, incomplete judgement on whether our °°° is ••• can be wrong.

This does not in any way allow leverage as to proclaim there is no ••• nor that the °°° is not globally extant as an identifiable property: just because the ape can be wrong about the triangle on a flat universe having a certain amount of radians worth of bend on its angles does not change that it is a property of the triangle to have 180 degrees among its angles.

One may hold an objectively flawed assessment of °°° in one's head, but it doesn't change one iota of the reality and truth value of the real °°°.

In fact, one of our jobs is to observe these discrepancies, explain them, incorporate them, and not have them in the future.
 
Your quotes do not support the idea that consciousness plays the role of free will.

Here is the role that consciousness plays: First, recall that free will is about choosing what we will do. Second, recall that the brain, while choosing what we will do, is us choosing what we will do. Consciousness allows us to know what we chose and why we chose it.

1. In the restaurant, we must be conscious of the items on the menu in order to know what our options are.

2. In order to explain our choice to ourselves and others, we must be conscious of the reasons behind our choice. Before making my choice for dinner, I should consider what I've already had today for breakfast and lunch. I recall that I had bacon and eggs for breakfast. Then I recall that I had a double cheeseburger for lunch, so I wisely chose to have the salad instead of the steak for dinner. So, I am conscious of recalling what I had for breakfast and lunch.

3. When I order the salad in the restaurant, I consciously to tell the waiter, "I will have the Chef Salad, please".

Those are a few of the instances of consciousness in free will.

Everything else going on in the brain may be unconscious activity. But the unconscious activity sends its results through several layers up to conscious awareness, where it becomes reportable.

Gazzaniga suggests that consciousness is not limited to a single brain area, but is distributed across the brain in multiple functional areas:
Since we were finding specialized capacities in all different regions of the brain and since we had seen that conscious experience was closely associated with the part of the cortex involved with a capacity, we came to understand that consciousness is distributed everywhere across the brain.

Gazzaniga, Michael S.. Who's in Charge?: Free Will and the Science of the Brain (p. 64). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.

I am suggesting that the brain has all kinds of local consciousness systems, a constellation of them, which are enabling consciousness. Although the feelings of consciousness appear to be unified to you, they are given form by these vastly separate systems. (p. 66)

The brain is a self-organizing system:
Germane to our current discussion, however, is that while hierarchical processing takes place within the modules, it is looking like there is no hierarchy among the modules. All these modules are not reporting to a department head, it is a free-for-all, self-organizing system. (pp. 69-70)

Despite all this built-in chaos, the brain as a whole operates with a purpose:
What we always must keep in mind is that our brains, hence all these processes, have been sculpted by evolution to enable us to make better decisions that increase our reproductive success. (p. 69)

A complex system is composed of many different systems that interact and produce emergent properties that are greater than the sum of their parts and cannot be reduced to the properties of the constituent parts. (p. 71)

So, what are Gazzaniga's thoughts on free will? He is in the "free will is an essential illusion" camp. It may be an illusion, but it is a necessary one:
The lingering conviction that we humans have a “self” making all the decisions about our actions is not dampened. It is a powerful and overwhelming illusion that is almost impossible to shake. In fact, there is little or no reason to shake it, for it has served us well. (p. 75)

The "illusion" is created by what Gazzaniga calls the brain's "interpreter" function, the special function that explains our behavior to ourselves and others.
When we set out to explain our actions, they are all post hoc explanations using post hoc observations with no access to nonconscious processing. Not only that, our left brain fudges things a bit to fit into a makes-sense story. It is only when the stories stray too far from the facts that the right brain pulls the reins in. These explanations are all based on what makes it into our consciousness, (pp. 77-78)

The "interpreter" only has access to "what makes it into our consciousness". For example, in the restaurant, I was conscious of the items on the menu, I was conscious of recalling what I had for breakfast, I was conscious of recalling what I had for lunch, I was conscious of my evaluation that a salad, rather than a steak, would be the best choice for dinner. But I was not conscious of the processing beneath my awareness that brought about these conscious experiences. However, the interpreter is able to piece together these conscious experiences into an useful explanation of what just happened: I read the menu, I considered my options, and I made my choice. And this is an accurate account of what essentially happened.

The interpreter provides the storyline and narrative, and we all believe we are agents acting of our own free will, making important choices. The illusion is so powerful that there is no amount of analysis that will change our sensation that we are all acting willfully and with purpose. The simple truth is that even the most strident determinists and fatalists at the personal psychological level do not actually believe they are pawns in the brain’s chess game. (p. 105)

While Gazzaniga reasonably rejects free will as a soul or spirit operating outside of the brain and outside of deterministic causation, he defends both the notions of responsibility and freedom. He begins:

Today, more than ever before, we need to know where we stand on the central question of whether not we are agents who are to be held accountable and responsible for our actions. (p. 106)

He describes bottom-up and top-down causation occurring between the levels of neural interactions:
Mental states do not exist without those interactions. At the same time, they cannot be defined or understood by knowing only the cellular interactions. Mental states that emerge from our neural actions do constrain the very brain activity that gave rise to them. Mental states such as beliefs, thoughts, and desires all arise from brain activity and in turn can and do influence our decisions to act one way or another. (p. 107)

And that is what I refer to as the "rational causal mechanism", the causation that results from our conscious thoughts and feelings. Gazzaniga described this poignantly in his introduction to the book:

Are we just a fancier and more ingenious animal snorting around for our dinner? Sure, we are vastly more complicated than a bee. Although we both have automatic responses, we humans have cognition and beliefs of all kinds, and the possession of a belief trumps all the automatic biological process and hardware, honed by evolution, that got us to this place. Possession of a belief, though a false one, drove Othello to kill his beloved wife, and Sidney Carton to declare, as he voluntarily took his friend’s place at the guillotine, that it was a far, far better thing he did than he had ever done. (pp. 2-3)

And that is how the rational causal mechanism plays a key role in determining human behavior.

Rational causation is an emergent property of human evolution. At different levels of organization, different behaviors emerge following different sets of rules. The rules at the lower level cannot explain the new behavior. And this is the basic flaw with reductionism.

Emergence is a common phenomenon that is accepted in physics, biology, chemistry, sociology, and even art. (p. 135)

The classic example from biology is the huge, towerlike structure that is built by some ant and termite species. These structures only emerge when the ant colony reaches a certain size (more is different) and could never be predicted by studying the behavior of single insects in small colonies. (p. 135)

A new set of laws emerge that aren’t predicted from the parts alone. (p. 136)

Different levels of organization exhibit different behaviors following there own rules. Gazzaniga uses a ball as an example in physics:
We view the collective behavior of the atoms, Micro B, at the higher organizational level of the ball, Macro A, and we see it doing ball behavior following Newton’s laws, but the atoms are there at the core doing their own thing and following a different set of laws. (p. 139)

And responsibility emerges at the social level of organization, where we get new laws that we ourselves create:
Responsibility is a dimension of life that comes from social exchange, and social exchange requires more than one brain. When more than one brain interacts, new and unpredictable things begin to emerge, establishing a new set of rules. Two of the properties that are acquired in this new set of rules that weren’t previously present are responsibility and freedom. (p. 136)

Another emergent property is control:
Control implies some form of constraint. Control is not eating the jelly donut because you know it is not healthy, and not cheating on the test because, well, if you get caught you get in some kind of trouble. Control is an emergent property. (p. 138)

What DBT has been suggesting is summarized by Gazzaniga here:
Setting a course of action is automatic, deterministic, modularized, and driven not by one physical system at any one time but by hundreds, thousands, and perhaps millions. The course of action taken appears to us as a matter of choice, but the fact is, it is the result of a particular emergent mental state being selected by the complex interacting surrounding milieu. (p. 141)

My own point is that the result of this internal neurological process can only be understood by us through macro modeling, through concepts such as the operation of choosing. This is how our interpreter explains it to us, and it is our only way of understanding the process in any meaningful way.

And this is where Gazzaniga returns us in order to make sense of the world and our behavior in it.

In the last chapter, I left off suggesting that responsibility arises out of social interaction and that the mind constrains the brain. We are now going to see how we incorporate social dynamics into personal choice, how we figure out the intentions, emotions, and goals of others in order to survive, and understand how social process constrains individual minds. (p. 144)

It turns out that we are wired from birth for social interactions. A great many of our social abilities come hardwired from the baby factory. The advantage of hardwired abilities, of course, is they work immediately and don’t have to be learned, as opposed to all of the survival skills that do. (p. 144)

One of these hard-wired features is referred to as "Theory of Mind":
Complex social interactions depend on our ability to understand the mental states of others, and in 1978 David Premack came up with a fundamental idea that now governs so much of social psychological neuroscience work. He realized that humans have the innate ability to understand that others have minds with different desires, intentions, beliefs, and mental states, and the ability to form theories, with some degree of accuracy, about what those desires, intentions, beliefs, and mental states are. He called this ability theory of mind (TOM) (p. 159)

Another hard-wired feature is "mirror neurons":
They found that when a monkey grasps a grape, the very same neuron fires as when the monkey observes another individual grasping a grape. They called these mirror neurons, and they are one of the great recent discoveries in neuroscience. They were the first concrete evidence that there is a neural link between observation and imitation of an action, a cortical substrate for understanding and appreciating the actions of others. (pp. 160-161)

Another hard-wired feature is certain "moral intuitions":
He (Psychologist Jonathan Haidt) defines moral intuitions as “the sudden appearance in consciousness, or at the fringe of consciousness, of an evaluative feeling (like-dislike, good-bad) about the character or actions of a person, without any conscious awareness of having gone through steps of search, weighing evidence, or inferring a conclusion.” (p. 167)
Haidt and Craig Joseph have come up with a list of universal moral modules after comparing works about human universals, cultural differences in morality, and precursors of morality in chimpanzees. Their five modules have to do with suffering (it’s good to help and not harm others), reciprocity (from this comes a sense of fairness), hierarchy (respect for elders and those in legitimate authority), coalitionary bonding (loyalty to your group) and purity (praising cleanliness and shunning contamination and carnal behavior). (pp. 172-173)

Returning to the social basis of responsibility, Gazzaniga says:
Currently, American law holds one responsible for one’s criminal actions unless one acted under severe duress (a gun pointed at your child’s head for instance) or one suffers a serious defect in rationality (such as not being able to tell right from wrong). (p. 187)

And there you'll recognize the more common understanding of "free will", the one that I have been consistently using:

Choosing for ourselves what we will do, while free of coercion (duress) and other forms of undue influence (e.g., a defect in rationality).

A person is held responsible for acts of their own free will, but not for actions that were caused by coercion or undue influence.

Gazzaniga continues:
After the previous chapters and the evidence for determinism, we are confronted with the question: Who do we blame in a crime, the person or the brain? Do we want to hold the person accountable or do we want to forgive him because of this determinist dimension of brain function? Ironically, this question is treading dualist waters, suggesting that there is a difference between a person and his brain and body. (p. 187) Italics mine.

At stake in the arguments is the very foundation of our legal system, which holds a person responsible and accountable for his actions. (p. 189)

The three areas of the law that neuroscience is now impacting have to do with responsibility, evidence, and the question of justice for the victim and the offender during sentencing. (p. 191)

Gazzaniga discusses the legal notion of responsibility:
Personal responsibility is a product of a normally functioning brain of the “practical reasoner.” Things can happen to the brain, a lesion, injury, stroke, or neurotransmitter disorder that makes it not function normally, resulting in diminished brain capacity, thus, diminished responsibility, and this is used for exculpability. In criminal cases in particular, the defendant must also have “mens rea” or actual evil intent. (p. 191)
And notes that responsibility is not a property of the brain, but a social construct:
Responsibility is not located in the brain. The brain has no area or network for responsibility. As I said before, the way to think about responsibility is that it is an interaction between people, a social contract. Responsibility reflects a rule that emerges out of one or more agents interacting in a social context, and the hope that we share is that each person will follow certain rules. An abnormal brain does not mean that the person cannot follow rules. (p. 193)
Regarding the penalty for criminal offenses, Gazzaniga correctly shifts attention to three different philosophies of justice:
Retributive justice is backward-looking. One is punished in proportion to the crime that is committed, extending just deserts to the individual, and punishment is the goal. The crucial variable is the degree of moral outrage the crime engenders, not the benefits to society resulting from the punishment. (p. 206)
Utilitarian justice (consequentialism) is forward looking and concerned about the greater future good of society resulting from punishing the individual offender. (p. 206)
Restorative justice looks at crimes as having been committed against a person rather than against the state. (p. 208)

Please read Gazzaniga for further description of these three approaches. He devotes a whole chapter to this topic.

The point I wish to make here is that Gazzaniga does not suggest that a person should not be held responsible for his actions due to their actions being deterministically caused by the brain.

And he finishes with an affirmation of the brain's ability to cause deliberate behavior by its decision making function:

... the dignified Indian handed his English friend a pair of shoes to take back to his kids. Here they were in what a Westerner would only call abject poverty and misery, and yet the human exchange transcended everything—that moment that so defines who we are. It is that magnificence of being “human” that we all cherish and love and that we don’t want science to take away. We want to feel our own worth and the worth of others. (p. 217)
The large deterministic view that surrounds all of science seems to be urging a more bleak view, the view that no matter how we dress it up, in the end we are machines of some kind, automatically and mindlessly serving as the vehicles for the physically determined forces of the universe, forces larger than us. Each of us is not precious. We are all pawns. (p. 218)
Understanding that the brain works automatically and follows the laws of the natural world is both heartening and revealing. Heartening because we can be confident the decision-making device, the brain, has a reliable structure in place to execute decisions for actions. (p. 218)

Okay, DBT, let me get to your stuff.

Gazzaniga's experiments - which I think you quoted, show that actions are determined unconsciously, which are then represented in conscious form along with a narrator function.

Yes, and I think I've clarified that above. The key point I'd like to make here is that the interpreter is only as good as the information it has to work with. When it has accurate information, then it tells the truth. If key information is missing, it confabulates. (This also happens with post-hypnotic suggestions).

For example:
''Experiments on split-brain patients reveal how readily the left brain interpreter can make up stories and beliefs. In one experiment, for example, when the word walk was presented only to the right side of a patient’s brain, he got up and started walking. When he was asked why he did this, the left brain (where language is stored and where the word walk was not presented) quickly created a reason for the action: “I wanted to go get a Coke.”

That is an example where the left brain lacked the information that only the right brain had. This experimentally manipulated scenario caused the left brain to confabulate.

Even more fantastic examples of the left hemisphere at work come from the study of neurological disorders. In a complication of stroke called anosognosia with hemiplegia, patients cannot recognize that their left arm is theirs because the stroke damaged the right parietal cortex, which manages our body’s integrity, position, and movement. The left-hemisphere interpreter has to reconcile the information it receives from the visual cortex—that the limb is attached to its body but is not moving—with the fact that it is not receiving any input about the damage to that limb. The left-hemisphere interpreter would recognize that damage to nerves of the limb meant trouble for the brain and that the limb was paralyzed; however, in this case the damage occurred directly to the brain area responsible for signaling a problem in the perception of the limb, and it cannot send any information to the left-hemisphere interpreter. The interpreter must, then, create a belief to mediate the two known facts “I can see the limb isn’t moving” and “I can’t tell that it is damaged.” When patients with this disorder are asked about their arm and why they can’t move it, they will say “It’s not mine” or “I just don’t feel like moving it”—reasonable conclusions, given the input that the left-hemisphere interpreter is receiving.'' - Michael Gazzaniga.

Same story here. Due to the hemiplegia stroke the left brain was missing visual information, and was forced to make its best guess as to what was going on.

All actions being fixed at any given moment in time: inputs acting upon the immediate state and condition, determining the action taken.

You seem to have lost sight of the fact that the brain is a system that actively acquires information and then acts upon it, within itself, to produce its own response.

Unconscious brain activity processes information which is fed into conscious activity and response. Input precedes unconscious processing, which precedes conscious thought and action by milliseconds.

But, like Gazzaniga says:

What difference does it make if brain activity goes on before we are consciously aware of something? Consciousness is its own abstraction on its own time scale and that time scale is current with respect to it. Thus, Libet’s thinking is not correct. (p. 141)

And, as you often say, that's all I have time for.
 
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