Historical Jesus

Swammerdami said:

Bilby follows me around, misrepresenting my positions, and introducing false or useless positions of his own.

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Don't flatter yourself.

I read almost everything posted on this board; And I respond if I feel like it - usually without bothering to look at the identity of the person who posted.

If someone posts obvious nonsense, I will point that out.

If they respond with an explanation of why they are right, and I am wrong, then I often learn something.

If they respond with defensiveness, derision, and insults, I take that as an indication that I am probably right.

You strike me as someone who is sufficiently intelligent as to rarely meet anyone smarter than yourself; As a consequence, you are angered by any challenge to your claims, because you automatically assume that those challenges come from people who are less knowlegable than you, less intelligent than you, or both.

However, that assumption breaks down when you search out a self-selected worldwide group of intelligent and knowlegable people. Such as this forum.

My advice to you is to lay off the condescension, and turn your thinking brain back on - you might discover that you still have the ability to learn new facts, and new ways of thinking about those facts you already posess.

Alternatively, put me on "ignore".

Hi bilby. Because of a Page Break, you probably missed my post moments ago. I asked a specific question to help us understand your position. Here's hoping you respond soonest!

bilby said:

However, that assumption breaks down when you search out a self-selected worldwide group of intelligent and knowlegable people. Such as this forum.

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I DO appreciate the MANY intelligent people here.

Appreciate so much in fact that I appeal to them to help out here. WHO is being unreasonable in these on-going bilby-swammi exchanges?

Among the many intelligent posters here, bilby obviously has high knowledge and intelligence on several hard-science topics.
I do not accept -- based on the evidence I've see -- that his high intelligence and knowledge of many hard-science topics carries over to all "non-hard" sciences.

In particular I wonder if his familiarity with HARD (rigorous) science may make him less competent in the Historian's Craft -- a "spongy" discipline rather than a "hard" one.).

bilby said:

My advice to you is to lay off the condescension, and turn your thinking brain back on - you might discover that you still have the ability to learn new facts, and new ways of thinking about those facts you already posess.

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What I am trying to get YOU to see is that it is YOU who are condescending. Read this very post of yours.
And please don't neglect to answer my recent post with the list of men. Do you need a link?

bilby said:

Alternatively, put me on "ignore".

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What's probably going to happen is that I -- sadly -- put you on Ignore when reading some threads, but not others. This will be a minor annoyance. I'd prefer -- especially if it's OK with you -- that we ask Moderation Staff to create a Bilby and Swammi snark at each other thread and move some of the more useless posts there.

 Category:People whose existence is disputed - a long list

From:

• China: Laozi, Sun Tzu
• The Bible: Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Aaron, Miriam, Og, Saul, Solomon, the Queen of Sheba, Elihu, Elijah, Esther, Ezra, Job, Jonah, Daniel
• The Greco-Roman world: Homer, Lycurgus, Aesop, Romulus and Remus
• Medieval Europe: Hengist and Horsa, Vortigern, Uther Pendragon, King Arthur, Merlin, Morgan le Fay, Robin Hood, the Sheriff of Nottingham, Rurik, William Tell
• Recently: Ned Ludd

Many of these people likely existed, but telling fact from fiction about them is difficult. One sometimes finds inverted pyramids of myth and legend erected onto some short reference, like for the  Queen of Sheba

Also has

•  Category:Book of Mormon people with  Category:Book of Mormon prophets
•  Category:Predynastic pharaohs
•  Category:Christ myth theory

No Robots said:

^Socialism is nothing else but the secularization of Christ's teaching.

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No it isn't. Christ, according to the NT, said all that stuff within a wider authoritarian framework of magical father-god who can't be questioned.

And it wasn't secularized. Ideas of taking care of the least among us, eschewing wealth, questioning authority, holding power accountable, are not unique to Christianity. Christians have just been more, um... adamant, shall we say, in spreading the narrative that human goodness can only come from a specific religion.

There is nothing good in human experience that can't be had without religion.

The accomplishment of the Christian intention of a universal community of freedom and equality is inevitable. Christianity leads to liberalism, liberalism to ideal socialism, ideal socialism to communism, as the fascist philosophers are accustomed nowadays to assert.--The Clue to history / John Macmurray, p. 206.

No Robots said:

The accomplishment of the Christian intention of a universal community of freedom and equality is inevitable.

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What possible reason would anyone have for believing such nonsense?

Christianity has been around for centuries. It was only when western culture started getting rid of it that freedom and equality started to become possible. While Christian morals and ethics dominated slavery and genocide did as well.

Christianity is antithetical to a universal community of freedom and equality. The proof is written in history for all to see.
Tom

No Robots said:

The accomplishment of the Christian intention of a universal community of freedom and equality is inevitable. Christianity leads to liberalism, liberalism to ideal socialism, ideal socialism to communism, as the fascist philosophers are accustomed nowadays to assert.--The Clue to history / John Macmurray, p. 206.

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You can not possibly be serious. You are ignoring 2000 years of Christian history.

The goal of Christianity has been a universal global power structure that dictates.

The gospel Jesus appears to have been apocalyptic. The end time is near. The historical fear instilled in Christians.

From the start Christian sects had conflicts.

There is nothing bible based for your interpretation of creating a global community of love, whatever that means in context.

Did not Jesus say my kingdom is not of the Earth?

No Robots said:

The accomplishment of the Christian intention of a universal community of freedom and equality is inevitable. Christianity leads to liberalism, liberalism to ideal socialism, ideal socialism to communism, as the fascist philosophers are accustomed nowadays to assert.--The Clue to history / John Macmurray, p. 206.

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Christianity is fundamentally authoritarian. You cannot deny that. The basis of Christianity is not the red words in the NT. The basis of Christianity is that magical father-god who you have to worship and bow to and hand over your conscience to (or rather, to father-god's proxies on Earth) or burn forever.

Very few sects and denominations of Christianity do not teach these basic things. Very few -- in fact I only know of one -- sects or denominations of Christianity have figured out how to remove the elements of authoritarianism that create that framework that is so conducive to abuse and not at all able to police itself.

Liberalism may exist as a little pellet within that wider, inherently (and proudly, flagrantly, gleefully) authoritarian patriarchy, but it's not the basis, it's not the bones, it's not the core, it's not the purpose of Christianity (except for that one sect) to spread the red words. The red words are just the face. It's a pretty face that a lot of people like and a lot of people find inspiring, but its hierarchical framework and punitive mentality will always be conducive to abuse and oppression.

I'm not saying every authority figure within that framework is abusive. I am saying that any authority figure within that framework who is at all inclined to abuse will find Christian churches a comfortable place with compliant victims and a willingness among the congregation and its leadership to cover up or dismiss complaints of abuse. In some Christian churches and communities, they will blame and attack accusers (who are overwhelmingly women and children). It is almost always secular society that steps in to protect victims and hold abusers accountable.

And most importantly, it is always, always, alfuckingways O*T*H*E*R H*U*M*A*N B*E*I*N*G*S who stop religious abusers, or any abusers anywhere. No god ever stopped religious abusers from abusing. Christianity has a great capacity for allowing abuse but little for self policing. Equality (not hierarchy) and holding authority figures accountable (not blind obedience) are -- forgive me for yet more formatting but this needs some emphasis -- essential to liberalism, at least if we're talking about the socialist, progressive, caring-for-and-protecting-the-least-among-us kind of liberalism.

So either Macmurray was talking about Quakers or he didn't know what the fuck he was talking about. Edit: those aren't the only two options. Some others might be full on delusion or purposely working to manipulate people into the cult because he's a sociopath who recognizes the path to power in Christian ideas.

Macmurray goes on to explain that socialists are unconscious of socialism’s continuity with Christianity and of Christianity’s continuity with Judaism. He maintains, writing in 1938, that the success of the Soviet Union is dependent on “the full discovery of the historic continuity of Russian socialism with its Jewish origin in the religious consciousness.” The Soviets did not come to this realization. They instead asserted radical opposition to religion in general. Now, the negation of religion has played a critical role in mankind’s development. It is not the endpoint, however. There follows the negation of the negation, a truly emancipatory spirituality that is consciously rooted in Judaism, including the Judaism of Christ. Socialism can succeed only where it asserts itself as the only legitimate inheritor of Judaism and of its great spokesmen, including Christ.

No Robots said:

Macmurray goes on to explain that socialists are unconscious of socialism’s continuity with Christianity and of Christianity’s continuity with Judaism. He maintains, writing in 1938, that the success of the Soviet Union is dependent on “the full discovery of the historic continuity of Russian socialism with its Jewish origin in the religious consciousness.” The Soviets did not come to this realization. They instead asserted radical opposition to religion in general. Now, the negation of religion has played a critical role in mankind’s development. It is not the endpoint, however. There follows the negation of the negation, a truly emancipatory spirituality that is consciously rooted in Judaism, including the Judaism of Christ. Socialism can succeed only where it asserts itself as the only legitimate inheritor of Judaism and of its great spokesmen, including Christ.

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Once again, Christianity is fundamentally authoritarian, and authoritarianism is bad for human societies and families and individuals.

Tap dance around that all you want, but this is a truth about Christianity that absolutely must be resolved if you or Macmurray or the banana guy or anybody else wants to pretend that what you're defending is humane and based in reality.

Swammerdami said:

As further example of this on-going pattern, look at this post.
bilby offers only the pretentious "So what?" When I offer him questions, to help him hone is own understanding, he ignores me; waits a week or so; then farts out another arrogant and useless dismissive.

Swammerdami said:

bilby said:

Again, so what?

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Let's digress and play a parlor game. Do something with the following list of a dozen men.
Rank them by historical importance; play odd-men-out; whatever. Are they all "nobodies"? Or is that a special designation just for Jesus?

• Lao Tzu (Li Er?)
• Confucius (Kong Qiu)
• Moses, the Deliverer and Lawgiver
• Siddhartha Gautama, the Buddha
• Zarathustra
• Jesus (Yeshua) of Nazareth, the Christ
• Paul the Apostle
• Josiah (Yoshia ben Amon), King of Judah
• Martin Luther
• Muhammad ibn Abdullah the Prophet (pbuh)
• Akhenaten, Pharaoh (Amenhotep IV)
• Saint Peter the Apostle (Shimoun Bar Younah)

Anyone else want to play?

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I asked bilby a specific question. Got "Crickets" as reply.

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And still Crickets?

Angry Floof said:

Once again, Christianity is fundamentally authoritarian, and authoritarianism is bad for human societies and families and individuals.

Tap dance around that all you want, but this is a truth about Christianity that absolutely must be resolved if you or Macmurray or the banana guy or anybody else wants to pretend that what you're defending is humane and based in reality.

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The way forward is altruistic communism. As Yehuda Ashlag puts it:

Religion is the only sound basis that will never be cancelled. Communism must be transformed to the lines of “mine is yours and yours is yours”, meaning absolute altruism. After the majority of the public reaches that, it will keep, “each will work according to his skills and receive according to his needs”.

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No Robots said:

Angry Floof said:

Once again, Christianity is fundamentally authoritarian, and authoritarianism is bad for human societies and families and individuals.

Tap dance around that all you want, but this is a truth about Christianity that absolutely must be resolved if you or Macmurray or the banana guy or anybody else wants to pretend that what you're defending is humane and based in reality.

Click to expand...

The way forward is altruistic communism. As Yehuda Ashlag puts it:

Religion is the only sound basis that will never be cancelled. Communism must be transformed to the lines of “mine is yours and yours is yours”, meaning absolute altruism. After the majority of the public reaches that, it will keep, “each will work according to his skills and receive according to his needs”.

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I don't know why you think that these people are authorities, but I certainly don't think so.

Things that seemed idealistic in the mid-20th century have often been shown to be either mistaken or veiled attempts at authoritarian power grabs.

The best thing that's happened in the modern world is the wholesale dumping of religious theology and morals and the adoption of secular values. Even devout theists commonly manage to reinterpret scriptures well enough to get that done.
Tom

No Robots said:

Angry Floof said:

Once again, Christianity is fundamentally authoritarian, and authoritarianism is bad for human societies and families and individuals.

Tap dance around that all you want, but this is a truth about Christianity that absolutely must be resolved if you or Macmurray or the banana guy or anybody else wants to pretend that what you're defending is humane and based in reality.

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The way forward is altruistic communism. As Yehuda Ashlag puts it:

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Or even selfish altruism.

But anyway, it's still true that Christianity is fundamentally authoritarian and it's still true that authoritarianism is bad for humans, even for the few who might benefit from enslaving everyone (and who, no matter how godlike they become in their own minds, cannot sustain their power forever).

Don't know what Russian socialism was, does No Robots mean communism which was atheist by ideology?

One of Marx's most well known quotes is 'religion is the opium of the masses

The Russian communist antipathy towards religion is understandable. Under the Russian monarchy religion was an arm of the satte used to keep those at the bottom in check.

Macmurray, Ashlag and many others warned that socialism/communism could not advance by merely criticizing religion. The second half of the twentieth century bore out their warnings, seeing the general collapse of socialism/communism. The only way to rebuild the movement is by consciously connecting socialism/communism to its own foundation in prophetic Judaism, ie. the Judaism of Moses, the prophets and Christ. This Judaism is the primal affirmation of man’s unity with the whole of existence: Hear, Israel, Existence is your god, Existence is one. This primal affirmation was negated by the will to power of religious authorities. Secularization negated this negation, but it did not yet reassert the primal affirmation.

No Robots said:

The only way to rebuild the movement is by consciously connecting socialism/communism to its own foundation in prophetic Judaism, ie. the Judaism of Moses, the prophets and Christ.

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I don't understand why you think that Judaism is some kind of moral paragon.
Anyone can look at the last 3000 years of history and see that if there is a God, he doesn't much care for the people of Abraham.

From the Assyrians to the Chaldeans to the Romans to the Germans to the Muslims, about anyone can smite the Jews and God doesn't care.

Nah, I think it's way past time to give up on the premise that the Bible is morally special. It's not.
Tom

ETA ~To me, the Bible is like a hand carved piece of furniture that's thousands of years old. A beautiful antique worth preserving. But don't actually try to use it because it just won't survive.~

TomC said:

I don't understand why you think that Judaism is some kind of moral paragon.
Anyone can look at the last 3000 years of history and see that if there is a God, he doesn't much care for the people of Abraham.

From the Assyrians to the Chaldeans to the Romans to the Germans to the Muslims, about anyone can smite the Jews and God doesn't care.

Nah, I think it's way past time to give up on the premise that the Bible is morally special. It's not.
Tom

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Assyrians, gone. Chaldeans, gone. Romans, gone. Jews still here. Germans (ie. Christians) and Muslims, Jews.

Judaism is monist. There is not good without evil, there is not evil without good.

No Robots said:

Macmurray, Ashlag and many others warned that socialism/communism could not advance by merely criticizing religion.

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Can you give me an example of someone who thinks socialism/communism could advance by merely criticizing religion?

Also, socialism and communism are not the same thing, so I'm not really sure what your point was about that anyway other than to avoid acknowledging the fact that Christianity is fundamentally authoritarian and the fact that authoritarianism is bad for human beings.

No Robots said:

The second half of the twentieth century bore out their warnings, seeing the general collapse of socialism/communism.

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You did not see a "collapse of socialism" in the United States. And again, communism is not the same as socialism. Over the last few decades, right wing authoritarians, almost exclusively of the Christian variety, have sought to undermine the democratic socialist policies implemented in the 20th century that serve to ensure that the least among us are protected, provided for, and represented. Nothing of a democratic or social safety nature "collapsed," at least not in the US.

No Robots said:

The only way to rebuild the movement is by consciously connecting socialism/communism to its own foundation in prophetic Judaism, ie. the Judaism of Moses, the prophets and Christ. This Judaism is the primal affirmation of man’s unity with the whole of existence: Hear, Israel, Existence is your god, Existence is one. This primal affirmation was negated by the will to power of religious authorities. Secularization negated this negation, but it did not yet reassert the primal affirmation.

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Oh, just stop this irrelevant tap dancing around the fact that Christianity is fundamentally authoritarian and the fact that authoritarianism is bad for human beings.

Can you acknowledge that without offering apologist gobbledegook?

TomC said:

Anyone can look at the last 3000 years of history and see that if there is a God, he doesn't much care for the people of Abraham.

From the Assyrians to the Chaldeans to the Romans to the Germans to the Muslims, about anyone can smite the Jews and God doesn't care.

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Actually, to me this is one small point in favor of Judeo-Christianity. Almost every evil empire in human history has tried to oppress or eliminate the Jews. And they didn't just survive, they are now thriving (both in their own state, and dispersed throughout the West).