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Jesus Christ, Made In Our Likeness

Worldtraveller said:
Politesse said:
Does it comfort you to attribute universal human weaknesses and foibles to Christianity specifically? Does it make you feel safer, since you aren't a Christian, and therefore could imagine yourself free from the same failings? Even if, for instance, you also don't really consider it a crime to kill foreigners on foreign soil?
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Does it comfort you to completely miss the point of the posts?
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Yes. If people haven't thought out the logical fallacies and/or highly dubious rhetorical implications of their posts in a philosophy forum, I am all too happy to point them out.
 
Elixir said:
Politesse said:
Does it comfort you to attribute universal human weaknesses and foibles to Christianity specifically?
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I don’t think he did that.
The fact that human foibles and weaknesses are integral to Christian dogma doesn’t identify Christianity as the sole cause of such things.
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Yes, but it's like saying "every Chechnyan is a liar". Like, yes, technically I didn't claim that non-Chechnyans weren't liars. Nor did I as such claim that Chechnyans are uniquely deceitful. All I said was that all Chechnyans are liars, which is demonstrably true. Every human being tells a thousand lies a day just to get by, and Chechnyans are no exception to that rule.

But why call out Chechnyans in particular? To what end? It just seems a bit suss', you know?
 
Politesse said:
why call out Chechnyans in particular?
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Why call out Christianity in particular? Well, it's just that ...
That's what we gots.


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The ethics of Moses, of which Jesus' doctrines are a development, are aspirational, something that mankind works towards.
 
No Robots said:
The ethics of Moses, of which Jesus' doctrines are a development, are aspirational, something that mankind works towards.
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Bullshit.
Moses's ethics were horrible. In his tiny little way, he was worse than Adolf Hitler.

He was every bit as violent as Hitler. Every bit as deceitful. He was just as willing to order the death and destruction of non-israelites as Hitler was to order that for non-Aryans.

Moses lived in a much smaller world. But like Martin Luther, he was an inspiration to violence by scripture believers. Including Hitler and his many many followers.

Jesus' Teachings were not a development so much as a modern (at the time) reinterpretation. Far more sophisticated than the old ways.
Tom
 
TomC said:
Bullshit.
Moses's ethics were horrible. In his tiny little way, he was worse than Adolf Hitler.

He was every bit as violent as Hitler. Every bit as deceitful. He was just as willing to order the death and destruction of non-israelites as Hitler was to order that for non-Aryans.

Moses lived in a much smaller world. But like Martin Luther, he was an inspiration to violence by scripture believers. Including Hitler and his many many followers.

Jesus' Teachings were not a development so much as a modern (at the time) reinterpretation. Far more sophisticated than the old ways.
Tom
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Harry Waton on the relationship between Jesus and Moses:

Jesus did not bring anything new, excepting that the time arrived for salvation to be extended to the rest of mankind. This was the good news that Jesus announced, and it was good news indeed. But neither the Christians nor the Jews understood this. Both believed and still believe that Jesus came to abrogate the laws of Moses and the Prophets; and while the Christians rejoiced and still rejoice in this, the Jews were pained and are still pained at this. But this is false. When the Christians and the Jews will perceive the true mission of Jesus, then they will reconcile themselves with one another. And, as I showed in the lectures on the New Testament, Jesus knew that the Christians will waste the treasures which they received through Jesus, but in the end they will return to Jehovah and accept his Torah. Then, indeed, the laws of Moses and the Prophets will be fulfilled by the whole human race. Only now can we fully appreciate the sublime and eternal nature of the ethics of Moses.
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Waton on relative and absolute ethics:

Until mankind will attain to their predetermined destiny, ethics will often require the sacrifice of the eternal and universal principle to meet with concrete demands of life within the given conditions. There will, therefore, be a conflict between the local and temporary ethics and the eternal and universal ethics. But notwithstanding all this, the eternal and universal ethics asserts itself, as we shall see in the subsequent lectures. But no matter how much man may be compelled to deviate from the eternal and universal ethics, if only he has this standard of ethics in mind, he will know to what extent he deviates from the eternal and universal standard; and, if he is truly rational and ethical, he will endeavor to minimize the deviation and as much as possible to rectify the deviation.
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Politesse said:
Does it comfort you to attribute universal human weaknesses and foibles to Christianity specifically? Does it make you feel safer, since you aren't a Christian, and therefore could imagine yourself free from the same failings? Even if, for instance, you also don't really consider it a crime to kill foreigners on foreign soil?
Click to expand...

I do not attribute these foibles to Christianity only. Islam is just as bad. As were other cultures and their religions. Mongols before they became Moslems. Vikings and Norsemen and other Odinists. Aztecs and Mayans with their human sacrifices et al. And yes, we do have centuries of Christian evils to consider. But today, our nation is having to deal with primitive Christian pests, and the world has to deal with Islamic extremists.
 
Cheerful Charlie said:
Politesse said:
Does it comfort you to attribute universal human weaknesses and foibles to Christianity specifically? Does it make you feel safer, since you aren't a Christian, and therefore could imagine yourself free from the same failings? Even if, for instance, you also don't really consider it a crime to kill foreigners on foreign soil?
Click to expand...

I do not attribute these foibles to Christianity only. Islam is just as bad. As were other cultures and their religions. Mongols before they became Moslems. Vikings and Norsemen and other Odinists. Aztecs and Mayans with their human sacrifices et al. And yes, we do have centuries of Christian evils to consider. But today, our nation is having to deal with primitive Christian pests, and the world has to deal with Islamic extremists.
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I mean, it's not actually as wrong to kill foreigners as it is to kill locals, though, right? If one of your countrymen joins a merc outfit and goes off to kill some Russians in Ukraine, he isn't arrested for murder when he gets back. It would be considered extremely rude to deny a soldier so much as an invite to a neighborhood barbecue, even if you know he probably killed some civvies in 'Nam. Everyone agrees to "thou shalt not kill" in principle, but no one considers killing foreigners to be the same kind of crime or the same degree of crime as killing a neighbor. We all tolerate a bit of light killing, as long as it is someone else and somewhere else.
 
Politesse said:
Cheerful Charlie said:
Politesse said:
Does it comfort you to attribute universal human weaknesses and foibles to Christianity specifically? Does it make you feel safer, since you aren't a Christian, and therefore could imagine yourself free from the same failings? Even if, for instance, you also don't really consider it a crime to kill foreigners on foreign soil?
Click to expand...

I do not attribute these foibles to Christianity only. Islam is just as bad. As were other cultures and their religions. Mongols before they became Moslems. Vikings and Norsemen and other Odinists. Aztecs and Mayans with their human sacrifices et al. And yes, we do have centuries of Christian evils to consider. But today, our nation is having to deal with primitive Christian pests, and the world has to deal with Islamic extremists.
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I mean, it's not actually as wrong to kill foreigners as it is to kill locals, though, right? If one of your countrymen joins a merc outfit and goes off to kill some Russians in Ukraine, he isn't arrested for murder when he gets back. It would be considered extremely rude to deny a soldier so much as an invite to a neighborhood barbecue, even if you know he probably killed some civvies in 'Nam. Everyone agrees to "thou shalt not kill" in principle, but no one considers killing foreigners to be the same kind of crime or the same degree of crime as killing a neighbor. We all tolerate a bit of light killing, as long as it is someone else and somewhere else.
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We are debating the ten commandments. Thou shalt not kill. 6th commandment.
What does it really mean? Kill all the Canaanites? 1 Samuel, kill all the Amelekites?
And their livestock also? And steal their land? The 11th commandment. Genocide is a duty.
 
By what standard do ywe judge human weaknesses?

Are chimps and lions just being what they are but human animals are not to be human?

And that leads into the purpose of religion and civil laws.

I would say the purpose of religion is to keep our mitral instincts at bay.

We are seeing the lid coming off in our culture.

Christianity has always been about do what I say not what I do. Christianity for the ignorant masses did not apply to those in power and authority.

My view is that Christians are no more or less ethical and moral than any one else. Th issue is they claim a moral high ground that they feel empower to impose on others. Justified by a mandate interpreted from the gospels.




We see a somewhat pathetic RCC pope telling Ukraine to lay down their arms and surrender .

The abortion and birth control issues.
 
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Cheerful Charlie said:
We are debating the ten commandments. Thou shalt not kill. 6th commandment.
What does it really mean? Kill all the Canaanites? 1 Samuel, kill all the Amelekites?
And their livestock also? And steal their land? The 11th commandment. Genocide is a duty.
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Everyone excuses genocide, too, when it's their people doing the genociding. Or their allies. Seems like universal human values.
 
Cheerful Charlie said:
Politesse said:
Cheerful Charlie said:
Politesse said:
Does it comfort you to attribute universal human weaknesses and foibles to Christianity specifically? Does it make you feel safer, since you aren't a Christian, and therefore could imagine yourself free from the same failings? Even if, for instance, you also don't really consider it a crime to kill foreigners on foreign soil?
Click to expand...

I do not attribute these foibles to Christianity only. Islam is just as bad. As were other cultures and their religions. Mongols before they became Moslems. Vikings and Norsemen and other Odinists. Aztecs and Mayans with their human sacrifices et al. And yes, we do have centuries of Christian evils to consider. But today, our nation is having to deal with primitive Christian pests, and the world has to deal with Islamic extremists.
Click to expand...
I mean, it's not actually as wrong to kill foreigners as it is to kill locals, though, right? If one of your countrymen joins a merc outfit and goes off to kill some Russians in Ukraine, he isn't arrested for murder when he gets back. It would be considered extremely rude to deny a soldier so much as an invite to a neighborhood barbecue, even if you know he probably killed some civvies in 'Nam. Everyone agrees to "thou shalt not kill" in principle, but no one considers killing foreigners to be the same kind of crime or the same degree of crime as killing a neighbor. We all tolerate a bit of light killing, as long as it is someone else and somewhere else.
Click to expand...


We are debating the ten commandments. Thou shalt not kill. 6th commandment.
What does it really mean? Kill all the Canaanites? 1 Samuel, kill all the Amelekites?
And their livestock also? And steal their land? The 11th commandment. Genocide is a duty.
Click to expand...

Us and them. The latter need no consideration, not being Yahweh's people, they don't count.
 
Politesse said:
Cheerful Charlie said:
We are debating the ten commandments. Thou shalt not kill. 6th commandment.
What does it really mean? Kill all the Canaanites? 1 Samuel, kill all the Amelekites?
And their livestock also? And steal their land? The 11th commandment. Genocide is a duty.
Click to expand...
Everyone excuses genocide, too, when it's their people doing the genociding. Or their allies. Seems like universal human values.
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But does everyone share the rule to not kill others, or to not "other" others? The commandment seems to be a rule with no exceptions to it. If Jews and Christians believe the commandment is from God and that it has no exceptions, then they're hypocrites to be ok with the killing of others. But then, does that apply to everyone? I don't think so. That "othering" is universal behavior doesn't matter if people do not universally have a rule against it.
 
abaddon said:
Politesse said:
Cheerful Charlie said:
We are debating the ten commandments. Thou shalt not kill. 6th commandment.
What does it really mean? Kill all the Canaanites? 1 Samuel, kill all the Amelekites?
And their livestock also? And steal their land? The 11th commandment. Genocide is a duty.
Click to expand...
Everyone excuses genocide, too, when it's their people doing the genociding. Or their allies. Seems like universal human values.
Click to expand...
But does everyone share the rule to not kill others, or to not "other" others? The commandment seems to be a rule with no exceptions to it. If Jews and Christians believe the commandment is from God and that it has no exceptions, then they're hypocrites to be ok with the killing of others. But then, does that apply to everyone? I don't think so. That "othering" is universal behavior doesn't matter if people do not universally have a rule against it.
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Pretty common rule, yeah. Don't murder. Lots of laws about that. And just as many exceptions.
 
Some insist on ignoring the historical reality of Christianity and make it into a warm fuzzy harmless phenomena. The proverbial rose colored glasses.

Like all human social organizations and ideologies there ca be positives and negatives. There are social positives to religion.

Christianity here and from reporting in Africa and Russia Christianity is in the traditional form of seeking power and control. Here in the USA Christianity , money, and conservative politics are inextricably linked.

As with the word atheism when one says Christianity defending the word one has to articulate which aspect of Christianity one is referring to.

Is it the anti gay Christians who if given the power would take us back to making homosexuality illegal and teaching religion in public schools? Both issues were hard fought battles to separate church and state.
 
Ok. I'll bite.

Once upon a time in a country in a time of unrest, a woman came of child. This woman was not mentally well. She was prone to telling stories, and the life she had led to that point was wild and turbulent.

The father of her child loved her, but was no longer in her life, and was not a man she could be with.

She believed very strongly and then ceased to be in her child's life.

The child was raised by people of the culture of their mother, but was the child of their unknown father. They sought to be as the religion of their culture taught folks to think, but this thinking was malformed; the concepts of it were often sound, but the justifications used for decisions was not.

Eventually this led to seeking new knowledge, and they left the church to continue learning elsewhere.

They got an education somewhere in the thoughts of more than just the culture where they grew up, and got access to more esoteric concepts of the sort that are more often discussed by those who saw themselves as "prophets" rather than those who saw themselves as "learners after the learned" and "thinkers of only the thoughts of others", as students merely of human teachers rather than of the grand university of the universe itself.

Then, they went on a ministry. They went around wherever they could and lauded new thoughts and beliefs of how to be and act and how to treat one another. They said this in their communities, committed acts of rebellion around commercialization of the holy, and these acts were accomplished through things that people in power thought were secret. This resulted in the person's permanent removal from that realm, a sort of event that was reserved for those who were considered as "ought never return", but they returned anyway, were seen by some folks, then fucked off to do other things with their life just about around the time they wore out the welcome on their return.

How many people could live this story?

Clearly some parts are weaker than the original, but largely because I chose "acts of rebellion against greed and authority" in a way that shielded me from the worst consequences... I got ejected from a virtual platform.

Anyone wanna start a cult worshipping me? I'm currently taking casting calls for Judas. Good kissers only.
 
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