Pogroms and blaming the Jews

Bomb#20 said:

steve_bank said:

In the Israeli narrative any criticism of Israel is from antisemitism with no basis for a prejudice.\

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And? Do you think there is basis for a prejudice? Lack of basis is kind of what makes a prejudice a prejudice. And in case you're implying prejudice against Israelis doesn't count as bigotry the way prejudice against Jews does, that isn't really how it works.

The reactions to Israel are based on what Israel has been and is doing to the Palestinian people, stang with foundngof Israel and azure of Arab land,

A few Israelis in Amsterdam are assaulted and apologies are made and it is global news.

When over decades Palestinians in occupied West Bank are pushed off their land and reproducer by Israelis hardly a peep over here.

Historical bias and the Jewish experience in WWII are irrelevant to the issue. It is about what the collective state of Israel is doing.

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You mean Israelis are collectively guilty for what the collective state of Israel is doing? Does that work both ways? Are Gazans also collectively guilty for what the collective society of Gaza is doing?

If anything it is the Palestinians who have been reduced to a stereotype. Te result of a long proganda campi9gn over here to paint Palestinians as terrorist without justification and Israel as an innocent victim.

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... says the guy reducing Israelis to a stereotype and joining in the long propaganda campaign to paint Israelis as land thieves.

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Anything but connecting reactions to Israel long mistreatment ofPaolestinins from the founding, right?

Is Israel is hiding behind historical prejudice in its actions in Gaza and treatment of Palestinians.

Regardless of history Israel is reprehensible for its actions.

Islamicists want a new Islamic state in the region, a new caliphate. And we respond against it.

Zionists clam a divine god given right to Palestine after 2000 years and American conservative Christians support it.

Netanyahu has been quite clear, Jews have a biblical right to the land and Israel will do anything it deems necessary inn its interests, hence displacement of Palestinians off their land replaced by Jews.

Netanyahu is the Jewish version of one of political Christian biblical literalists.

The roots of anti antisemitism would be a thread for social science. It started when in the 1st 2nd centuries when non Jewish Chrtians coopted the Jewsh Jesus and bible makng it their own.

'The Jews killed Christ'.

Many cultures have endemic social issues.

India has issues because of adherence to Caste "logic".

The Netherlands has issues because while they have a strong stated value for tolerance, they don't really know well what that means, and end up being "Minnesota nice" at best in many situations.

Japan has cultural problems involving xenophobia.

Most cultures have problems.

Jewish cultures around the world have various issues but the one most commonly encountered is the cultural hypocrisy. My best example of this is the Jewish proscription for the sale of large livestock (among many other things) to gentiles, while criticizing gentiles for not dealing with Jewish people.

This is made even worse by the fact that the OT has a number of examples of very fucked up behavior by the Hebrews which all amount to cultural hypocrisy (see also "let us move our mercenary warband through your country", "no", "lol, we use that as an excuse ro burn your cities, kill your sons, and rape your daughters!")

Seeing as this is baked into the Talmudic law (along with a great many parts of the Talmud which put horrific travesties of jurisprudence on display).

steve_bank said:

Anything but connecting reactions to Israel long mistreatment ofPaolestinins from the founding, right?

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Connect all you please. Do you also connect reactions to Palestinians' long mistreatment of Israelis from the founding, or are you pushing the tedious anti-Israeli double standard we're all thoroughly familiar with? Israelis are moral agents with free will and Palestinians are finite state machines whose actions are the deterministic consequence of Israeli choices, right?

Is Israel is hiding behind historical prejudice in its actions in Gaza and treatment of Palestinians.

Regardless of history Israel is reprehensible for its actions.

Islamicists want a new Islamic state in the region, a new caliphate. And we respond against it.

Zionists clam a divine god given right to Palestine after 2000 years and American conservative Christians support it.

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Do you have any idea how many Israelis are atheists? It's one of the least religious countries in the world -- estimates run as high as 70%. Zionists in general claim a right not to be ethnically cleansed, tortured, raped and murdered.

Why do you think it's okay to generalize about Zionists based on the claims of their lunatics? There are Palestinian lunatics too, who claim a divine god-given right to murder all the Israelis. Do you think that would make it okay to say "Palestinians claim a divine god-given right to murder all the Israelis."?

Netanyahu has been quite clear, Jews have a biblical right to the land and Israel will do anything it deems necessary inn its interests

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Netanyahu has been quite clear, he will do anything he deems necessary to stay in office and avoid prosecution. I doubt he gives a toss about which rights are biblical.

, hence displacement of Palestinians off their land replaced by Jews.

Netanyahu is the Jewish version of one of political Christian biblical literalists.

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And the reason Israelis vote for people like Netanyahu in the first place is a reaction connected to Palestinians' long mistreatment of Israelis from the founding. See how it works?

The roots of anti antisemitism would be a thread for social science. It started when in the 1st 2nd centuries when non Jewish Chrtians coopted the Jewsh Jesus and bible makng it their own.

'The Jews killed Christ'.

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Suppose everything you say were correct. So what? Why the bejesus would any rational observer think who says what about God and who did what to whose ancestors two thousand years ago or eighty years ago outweighs the current reality that Palestinian fighters target noncombatants and the IDF doesn't, that Hamas is attempting genocide and Israel isn't, and that most Israelis would buy off on a two-state solution and most Palestinians wouldn't?

Here is another article on the incidents:

I don't necessarily buy into anything at the moment. There will always be escalations and he-said she-saids.

The Nations League matchup between France and Israel went on without too much fuss... though the security was turned up quite a bit. Football has an unfortunate history of hooliganism that loves to feed off this stuff. It is very ugly.

Not sure where else to mention this.

ICC issues arrest warrant for Benjamin Netanyahu for alleged Gaza war crimes​

I have no doubt that he’s a war criminal, but this is ridiculous. The ICC seems to think it’s their job to give despots even more reason to cling to power by hook or crook. AFAICT they’re a 100% paper tiger when it comes to enforcing anything.

Loren Pechtel said:

Amsterdam police arrest more than 60 people after attacks on Israeli football fans

Plane carrying fans home lands in Israel as Amsterdam mayor condemns ‘hit and run’ attacks on visiting supporters

www.theguardian.com

Blaming the Jews for it:

article said:

Amsterdam’s police chief, Peter Holla, said there had been “incidents on both sides”, starting on Wednesday night when Maccabi fans tore down a Palestinian flag from the facade of a building in the city centre and shouted “fuck you Palestine”.

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Starting???

Israel Warned Dutch Police about the Amsterdam Pogrom but Was Ignored

Aמ Israeli who complained to the police about being attacked was assaulted brutally with nightsticks by the cops and is now unable to walk.

www.jewishpress.com

Israel knew there would be attacks well before the supposed "start". Either they have a time machine or the supposed start isn't the start. The police apparently ignored the warnings.

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Turns out this entire thing was HUGELY misrepresented;

Patooka said:

Loren Pechtel said:

Amsterdam police arrest more than 60 people after attacks on Israeli football fans

Plane carrying fans home lands in Israel as Amsterdam mayor condemns ‘hit and run’ attacks on visiting supporters

www.theguardian.com

Blaming the Jews for it:

article said:

Amsterdam’s police chief, Peter Holla, said there had been “incidents on both sides”, starting on Wednesday night when Maccabi fans tore down a Palestinian flag from the facade of a building in the city centre and shouted “fuck you Palestine”.

Click to expand...

Starting???

Israel Warned Dutch Police about the Amsterdam Pogrom but Was Ignored

Aמ Israeli who complained to the police about being attacked was assaulted brutally with nightsticks by the cops and is now unable to walk.

www.jewishpress.com

Israel knew there would be attacks well before the supposed "start". Either they have a time machine or the supposed start isn't the start. The police apparently ignored the warnings.

Click to expand...

Turns out this entire thing was HUGELY misrepresented;

Click to expand...

Provided you take Paul Barry seriuosly,

Tigers! said:

Provided you take Paul Barry seriuosly,

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He provided the receipts in this case. In case no one wants to watch a blind video (fair enough), the footage of alleged Muslim mobs going after Jews was in fact a mob of Israeli Macabi fans rioting in Amsterdam. And the MSM pretty much glossed over the fact that the day before, Israelis were burning flags and beating up taxi drivers. Oh, and they also chanting for a genocide on the Arabs.

So, yeah. Ever so slightly different than the Guardian article Loren linked. They've also issued a correction

Tigers! said:

Patooka said:

Loren Pechtel said:

Amsterdam police arrest more than 60 people after attacks on Israeli football fans

Plane carrying fans home lands in Israel as Amsterdam mayor condemns ‘hit and run’ attacks on visiting supporters

www.theguardian.com

Blaming the Jews for it:

article said:

Amsterdam’s police chief, Peter Holla, said there had been “incidents on both sides”, starting on Wednesday night when Maccabi fans tore down a Palestinian flag from the facade of a building in the city centre and shouted “fuck you Palestine”.

Click to expand...

Starting???

Israel Warned Dutch Police about the Amsterdam Pogrom but Was Ignored

Aמ Israeli who complained to the police about being attacked was assaulted brutally with nightsticks by the cops and is now unable to walk.

www.jewishpress.com

Israel knew there would be attacks well before the supposed "start". Either they have a time machine or the supposed start isn't the start. The police apparently ignored the warnings.

Click to expand...

Turns out this entire thing was HUGELY misrepresented;

Click to expand...

Provided you take Paul Barry seriuosly,

Click to expand...

Media Watch is extremely reliable; more reliable than the ABC News itself. It is the closest thing that Australia has to an independent voice in the mass media. Indeed, It really needs to be a more major program item, on every week and at least half an hour.

Spacetime Inhabitant said:

Tigers! said:

Patooka said:

Loren Pechtel said:

Amsterdam police arrest more than 60 people after attacks on Israeli football fans

Plane carrying fans home lands in Israel as Amsterdam mayor condemns ‘hit and run’ attacks on visiting supporters

www.theguardian.com

Blaming the Jews for it:

article said:

Amsterdam’s police chief, Peter Holla, said there had been “incidents on both sides”, starting on Wednesday night when Maccabi fans tore down a Palestinian flag from the facade of a building in the city centre and shouted “fuck you Palestine”.

Click to expand...

Starting???

Israel Warned Dutch Police about the Amsterdam Pogrom but Was Ignored

Aמ Israeli who complained to the police about being attacked was assaulted brutally with nightsticks by the cops and is now unable to walk.

www.jewishpress.com

Israel knew there would be attacks well before the supposed "start". Either they have a time machine or the supposed start isn't the start. The police apparently ignored the warnings.

Click to expand...

Turns out this entire thing was HUGELY misrepresented;

Click to expand...

Provided you take Paul Barry seriuosly,

Click to expand...

Media Watch is extremely reliable; more reliable than the ABC News itself. It is the closest thing that Australia has to an independent voice in the mass media. Indeed, It really needs to be a more major program item, on every week and at least half an hour.

Click to expand...

I mean, it's pretty obvious what all happened to anyone in the area.

There were ongoing anti-zionist protests. The protests were principally peaceful and hippy-dippy "hold hands and chant" amid the occasional (honestly, cowardly) tagging threatening more extreme action, likely by some stupid edgy teens.

Then, Israelis came around tearing down flags, threatening cabbies, tossing people in canals.

This isn't really in question.

Then, after people started to get pissed off at the disruptions caused by the Israeli hooligans, primarily IDF veterans, the Israelis and the media attached to Israeli interests called the response anti-Semitic, and just like the media sane-washed Trump, they anti-Semitism-washed the events in Amsterdam.

The fact is, given the Christian bias across the world and the relationship that geography has to the religious beliefs and claims of Christianity, and the effect of religion on politics, the political (and other financially backed) forces which enable the media to exist at all are not going to allow a message that interferes with their minority interest.

The only way to respond to this would be to stand up a truly independent media, and that's not in the interests of any established power to allow.

Tigers! said:

Patooka said:

Loren Pechtel said:

Amsterdam police arrest more than 60 people after attacks on Israeli football fans

Plane carrying fans home lands in Israel as Amsterdam mayor condemns ‘hit and run’ attacks on visiting supporters

www.theguardian.com

Blaming the Jews for it:

article said:

Amsterdam’s police chief, Peter Holla, said there had been “incidents on both sides”, starting on Wednesday night when Maccabi fans tore down a Palestinian flag from the facade of a building in the city centre and shouted “fuck you Palestine”.

Click to expand...

Starting???

Israel Warned Dutch Police about the Amsterdam Pogrom but Was Ignored

Aמ Israeli who complained to the police about being attacked was assaulted brutally with nightsticks by the cops and is now unable to walk.

www.jewishpress.com

Israel knew there would be attacks well before the supposed "start". Either they have a time machine or the supposed start isn't the start. The police apparently ignored the warnings.

Click to expand...

Turns out this entire thing was HUGELY misrepresented;

Click to expand...

Provided you take Paul Barry seriuosly,

Click to expand...

Please provide reason(s) that your criticism is more credible than Mr Barry’s report on this issue.

laughing dog said:

Loren Pechtel said:

laughing dog said:

I wonder if the IDF actually knew about the attacks (as opposed to being unsurprised by them) if they warned Maccabi supporters to avoid flaunting their identity before and after the match as a preventative measure. It is something many travelling supporters in Europe are advised. I wonder if the Amsterdam police provided safe corridors to and from the event.

But to compare this outrage to a pogrom is over-the-top hyperbole. It is no more a pogrom than the Gaza war is genocide.

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Pay more attention. Israel warned the Amsterdam police. About the attacks in general and threats to a specific person.

That's not just a general caution about what sometimes happens after a football match.

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Your response did not address anything in my post.

There is no report of the specific fan injured.

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And that's supposed to be proof of something?!

Elixir said:

Not sure where else to mention this.

ICC issues arrest warrant for Benjamin Netanyahu for alleged Gaza war crimes​

I have no doubt that he’s a war criminal, but this is ridiculous. The ICC seems to think it’s their job to give despots even more reason to cling to power by hook or crook. AFAICT they’re a 100% paper tiger when it comes to enforcing anything.

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There's a reason we didn't sign on to the ICC. We knew it was a mess from the start.

Loren Pechtel said:

laughing dog said:

Loren Pechtel said:

laughing dog said:

I wonder if the IDF actually knew about the attacks (as opposed to being unsurprised by them) if they warned Maccabi supporters to avoid flaunting their identity before and after the match as a preventative measure. It is something many travelling supporters in Europe are advised. I wonder if the Amsterdam police provided safe corridors to and from the event.

But to compare this outrage to a pogrom is over-the-top hyperbole. It is no more a pogrom than the Gaza war is genocide.

Click to expand...

Pay more attention. Israel warned the Amsterdam police. About the attacks in general and threats to a specific person.

That's not just a general caution about what sometimes happens after a football match.

Click to expand...

Your response did not address anything in my post.

There is no report of the specific fan injured.

Click to expand...

And that's supposed to be proof of something?!

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Well, at least this time you responded to the actual content of my post.

The lack of corroboration for your claims of fact is evidence yiur claims are unfounded.

laughing dog said:

Tigers! said:

Patooka said:

Loren Pechtel said:

Amsterdam police arrest more than 60 people after attacks on Israeli football fans

Plane carrying fans home lands in Israel as Amsterdam mayor condemns ‘hit and run’ attacks on visiting supporters

www.theguardian.com

Blaming the Jews for it:

article said:

Amsterdam’s police chief, Peter Holla, said there had been “incidents on both sides”, starting on Wednesday night when Maccabi fans tore down a Palestinian flag from the facade of a building in the city centre and shouted “fuck you Palestine”.

Click to expand...

Starting???

Israel Warned Dutch Police about the Amsterdam Pogrom but Was Ignored

Aמ Israeli who complained to the police about being attacked was assaulted brutally with nightsticks by the cops and is now unable to walk.

www.jewishpress.com

Israel knew there would be attacks well before the supposed "start". Either they have a time machine or the supposed start isn't the start. The police apparently ignored the warnings.

Click to expand...

Turns out this entire thing was HUGELY misrepresented;

Click to expand...

Provided you take Paul Barry seriuosly,

Click to expand...

Please provide reason(s) that your criticism is more credible than Mr Barry’s report on this issue.

Click to expand...

A quick search

Loren Pechtel said:

Elixir said:

Not sure where else to mention this.

ICC issues arrest warrant for Benjamin Netanyahu for alleged Gaza war crimes​

I have no doubt that he’s a war criminal, but this is ridiculous. The ICC seems to think it’s their job to give despots even more reason to cling to power by hook or crook. AFAICT they’re a 100% paper tiger when it comes to enforcing anything.

Click to expand...

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I started typing a reply to the above, and something went funny, and the line I was responding to about ICC being a mess disappeared.
Anyway, my response is that USA is a mess, as it doesn't like respecting international law.

Tigers! said:

laughing dog said:

Tigers! said:

Patooka said:

Loren Pechtel said:

Amsterdam police arrest more than 60 people after attacks on Israeli football fans

Plane carrying fans home lands in Israel as Amsterdam mayor condemns ‘hit and run’ attacks on visiting supporters

www.theguardian.com

Blaming the Jews for it:

article said:

Amsterdam’s police chief, Peter Holla, said there had been “incidents on both sides”, starting on Wednesday night when Maccabi fans tore down a Palestinian flag from the facade of a building in the city centre and shouted “fuck you Palestine”.

Click to expand...

Starting???

Israel Warned Dutch Police about the Amsterdam Pogrom but Was Ignored

Aמ Israeli who complained to the police about being attacked was assaulted brutally with nightsticks by the cops and is now unable to walk.

www.jewishpress.com

Israel knew there would be attacks well before the supposed "start". Either they have a time machine or the supposed start isn't the start. The police apparently ignored the warnings.

Click to expand...

Turns out this entire thing was HUGELY misrepresented;

Click to expand...

Provided you take Paul Barry seriuosly,

Click to expand...

Please provide reason(s) that your criticism is more credible than Mr Barry’s report on this issue.

Click to expand...

A quick search

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If you looked at all the comments under that video (which incidentally is from an unreliable source - CNN), you would notice they were all calling it out for lying and misrepresentation, just like Media Watch did with the original "news" claims.

Jarhyn said:

Spacetime Inhabitant said:

Tigers! said:

Patooka said:

Loren Pechtel said:

Blaming the Jews for it:

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Apologists for Netanyahu's war crimes see anti-Semitism everywhere.

Jarhyn said:

Spacetime Inhabitant said:

Tigers! said:

Patooka said:

Turns out this entire thing was HUGELY misrepresented;

Click to expand...

Provided you take Paul Barry seriuosly,

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

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I've never heard of Paul Barry, but I suppose militant Zionists can't support any news source that doesn't kiss the ass of war criminals like Netanyhu. Does the fact that N.Y. Times and others have retracted their lies have any effect? I suppose not. In today's climate of Stupidism, ANY criticism of Israel (or even scoring against them in a sports event!) leads immediately to comparisons with the Holocaust.

Jarhyn said:

Jarhyn said:

Media Watch is extremely reliable; more reliable than the ABC News itself. It is the closest thing that Australia has to an independent voice in the mass media. Indeed, It really needs to be a more major program item, on every week and at least half an hour.

Click to expand...

I mean, it's pretty obvious what all happened to anyone in the area.

There were ongoing anti-zionist protests. The protests were principally peaceful and hippy-dippy "hold hands and chant" amid the occasional (honestly, cowardly) tagging threatening more extreme action, likely by some stupid edgy teens.

Then, Israelis came around tearing down flags, threatening cabbies, tossing people in canals.

This isn't really in question.

Then, after people started to get pissed off at the disruptions caused by the Israeli hooligans, primarily IDF veterans, the Israelis and the media attached to Israeli interests called the response anti-Semitic, and just like the media sane-washed Trump, they anti-Semitism-washed the events in Amsterdam.

The fact is, given the Christian bias across the world and the relationship that geography has to the religious beliefs and claims of Christianity, and the effect of religion on politics, the political (and other financially backed) forces which enable the media to exist at all are not going to allow a message that interferes with their minority interest.

The only way to respond to this would be to stand up a truly independent media, and that's not in the interests of any established power to allow.

Click to expand...

Whoever hailed the Internet as bringing the Age of Information had it backwards: Increasingly we learn that we are drowning in the Age of Disinformation.

The millions of Americans who seem to support pogrom against Palestinians will be happy to know that a popular American source of fact-based opinion is in trouble:

MSNBC’s current model leverages NBC News’ reporting infrastructure, allowing it to provide a mix of original reporting and opinion-based programming. This synergy has been crucial to the channel’s success, but a spinoff could disrupt this arrangement...

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Is it hyperbole to accuse ignorant supporters of Israel's war crimes of "supporting pogrom"? No more so than the hyperbole in their lies and perverted rhetoric.

Despite that N.Y. Times etc. have retracted their lies, I'll bet the false perspective persists for months whenever Amsterdam is mentioned.

Swammerdami said:

Despite that N.Y. Times etc. have retracted their lies, I'll bet the false perspective persists for months whenever Amsterdam is mentioned.

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Until the laws require the same prominence, space, and expectation of reach for retractions, until the retraction is as embarrassing for the media as the lie was profitable, we will remain in this situation.

But the fact is, that would blacken too many eyes of too many people who have earned it to ever stand.