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Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

 
 
 
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Loren Pechtel said:
laughing dog said:
Loren Pechtel said:
laughing dog said:
Dr Zoidberg said:
So how are they supposed to get the hostages back? Do you think that it's acceptable that Hamas took those hostages? The fact that Hamas took the hostages does give Israel every right to enter Gaza until they find them. IMHO
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Every participant in this thread who you’ve accused of antisemitism has denounced Hamas’s actions, including me. That includes hostage taking.

How’s that hostage rescuing going?
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Israel has recovered some. You have objected to their actions.
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Yes, 177 have been recovered alive: 8 rescued, 105 in a prisoner exchange and 4 unilaterally released. I have objected to the massive destruction and death to civilians. There is no way to know what would have occurred without that horrendous cost. But it seems that prisoner exchanges have occurred in the past without such carnage.
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You pretend to have no way to know but look at the past prisoner exchanges you refer to.
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There is no way to know what might have happened. One can guess what might happened.
Loren Pechtel said:
Massively lopsided. Apply that to the 10/7 situation and what do you get? Israel did and recognized that it was a non-starter. Besides, previous prisoner exchanges released people that killed more than the hostages Israel got back for them. This makes any such deal bad for Israel.
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Your response is based on your assumptions about what a deal would have to look like. Certainly some members of the cabinet and the IDF felt that the invasion and bombing were not the way to get the hostages back and deal with the situation.

I have no idea if a deal could have been arranged nor what might have entailed if it had materialized. Neither do you. But since you invoke history, it is pretty clear from history that Hamas takes hostages in order to make prisoner swaps.

My point was that if a prisoner swap had been done, some of the death and destruction would likely have been avoided. Nothing in your response rebuts that.
 
Loren Pechtel said:
zorq said:
Do you think Israel would ever choose to lose willingly if winning proved to be too costly in human life or their own humanity?

Israel seems willing to sacrifice everyone and everything in order to win. How are they different?
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Thus showing your lack of understanding of the situation.

Israel is willing to sacrifice everything to win because they know that to lose is to die. Their opponents explicitly intend genocide. Gaza is not under threat if they stop attacking Israel. (Hamas is--without the war Hamas has no money and no power. They would cease to exist.)
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It sounds like I called it correctly and you refuse to acknowledge the truths you just admitted. You just admitted that "Islamo-fascism" is no different than current Israeli standard operating procedure. Israel is willing to sacrifice any number of innocent people to achieve their goals of destroying their opponents. This is no different from Hamas. Their opponents are facing genocide from Israel. It is also quite explicit. Where is the difference?

And here we get more equivocation from you of Gaza with Hamas. Unsurprising. Gaza will always be under threat because Israeli oppression will never end until Gaza or Israel ceases to exist. Why? Because Israel, (and you, just now) have chosen to see all the Palestinians as the enemy. You say "Gaza" is attacking Israel. The violence and injustice inflicted on the people of Gaza has guaranteed that Israel will always have enemies who choose to strike her in hatred and vengeance. So again, the threat to Gaza will never end unless/until Gaza or Israel ceases to exist.

Also, I recommend that you don't fall into the trap of thinking that losing is the same as dying. "Win or die" is nearly always a false dichotomy, even in this situation. Israel's people can always choose to leave or adapt. Both of these options are much more humane than contributing to the endless homicide of innocent civilians. This is a choice I would eagerly make any day. I value my humanity and my family far more than any of my material possessions or cultural affiliations.

Israel doesn't care if they kill ten innocents in pursuit of one alleged enemy. Am I wrong? It's disgusting.

I will never willingly kill an innocent person. Israel will kill all of them to achieve their goals. They will never give up their blood-lust, because their enemies will never be extinguished.

They have no moral high ground. They can't even claim self-defense. They have been an oppressive force in the region for decades. A bully who hurts and provokes others but gets punched in the face can't legitimately blame the fight that ensues on the other party even if the others have been bullies too. Neither side has any moral high ground. The cycle of violence is endless and none of it can be justified.
 
laughing dog said:
DrZoidberg said:
laughing dog said:
DrZoidberg said:
laughing dog said:
DrZoidberg said:
Ok, then. Then how do you explain your double standards? And your problem with Israel defending itself? Your whitewashing of, the pretty extreme, Palestinian war crimes? Do you really not understand how that comes across as antisemitism?
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I haven’t whitewashed or defended Hamas’s violence, so I don’t see any double standards on my part. Nor do I have a problem with Israel defending itself - the issue for me and others is the manner of that defense. Perhaps you can present an actual quote of mine to substantiate your conclusion.


Dr Zoidberg said:
Then how do you propose Israel defends itself? Do you not understand how you are condoning Hamas' use of Palestinian human shields by using that as an argument against Israel and their ability to hit back?
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I am not condoning their tactics.
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I think you are holding Israel to impossible standards. I think you are an apologetic for Hamas' strategy of manipulating public opinion by maximising the suffering for the Palestinian people. The more we let Hamas get away with this shit, but being angry at Israel, for what Hamas is doing, the more Hamas will feel empowered.
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I understand you have beliefs about my position. I asked for the basis of your conclusion of my antisemitism. You respond with an explanation of your beliefs. So, without actual evidence, your accusation is faith-based.
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I think you have double standards. I get the impression that you think Jews don't have a right to defend themselves and should just tolerate being relentlessly attacked. You know, like Jews always have been treated.
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Still waiting for you to produce quotes that provide the basis for your accusations.
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Its the double standards you hold that make you an antisemite. You are implicitly antisemitic

My impression is that racists rarely say "death to Jews". Most racists think they're not. They think they're judging everyone fairly. But ignore structural oppression or context. Which I think is what you are doing



laughing dog said:
Dr Zoidberg said:
So how are they supposed to get the hostages back? Do you think that it's acceptable that Hamas took those hostages? The fact that Hamas took the hostages does give Israel every right to enter Gaza until they find them. IMHO
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Every participant in this thread who you’ve accused of antisemitism has denounced Hamas’s actions, including me. That includes hostage taking.
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If that denounciation doesn't come with approving Israels right to take back the hostages by force, then Sir, you are full of shit, as well as it making you an antisemite imho

laughing dog said:
How’s that hostage rescuing going?
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Its going very well. Its just slow because Israel is trying very hard to avoid civilian Palestinian casualties. They can't go faster because they have a world of antisemitic eyes looking desperately for anything they can use to denounce Israel. The moment they fuck up, then Israel is dead as a nation.

The critique Israel is getting now is from Israel behaving impeccably. Imagine what would happen if the IDF would fuck up?
 
DrZoidberg said:
Its the double standards you hold that make you an antisemite. You are implicitly antisemitic
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No. It's a hatred of Jewish people that makes someone antisemitic. No one here hates Jewish people.

Get a dictionary. Read it. Learn from it. And stop calling everyone antisemites. It's bullshit from the get go.
 
DrZoidberg said:
laughing dog said:
DrZoidberg said:
laughing dog said:
DrZoidberg said:
laughing dog said:
DrZoidberg said:
Ok, then. Then how do you explain your double standards? And your problem with Israel defending itself? Your whitewashing of, the pretty extreme, Palestinian war crimes? Do you really not understand how that comes across as antisemitism?
Click to expand...
I haven’t whitewashed or defended Hamas’s violence, so I don’t see any double standards on my part. Nor do I have a problem with Israel defending itself - the issue for me and others is the manner of that defense. Perhaps you can present an actual quote of mine to substantiate your conclusion.


Dr Zoidberg said:
Then how do you propose Israel defends itself? Do you not understand how you are condoning Hamas' use of Palestinian human shields by using that as an argument against Israel and their ability to hit back?
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I am not condoning their tactics.
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I think you are holding Israel to impossible standards. I think you are an apologetic for Hamas' strategy of manipulating public opinion by maximising the suffering for the Palestinian people. The more we let Hamas get away with this shit, but being angry at Israel, for what Hamas is doing, the more Hamas will feel empowered.
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I understand you have beliefs about my position. I asked for the basis of your conclusion of my antisemitism. You respond with an explanation of your beliefs. So, without actual evidence, your accusation is faith-based.
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I think you have double standards. I get the impression that you think Jews don't have a right to defend themselves and should just tolerate being relentlessly attacked. You know, like Jews always have been treated.
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Still waiting for you to produce quotes that provide the basis for your accusations.
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Its the double standards you hold that make you an antisemite. You are implicitly antisemitic ….
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You’ve been asked to produce evidence to support your accusations, and your responses are to repeat your slanderous opinions. Which suggests there is no evidence that exists out if the cesspool of your views.
 
ZiprHead said:
DrZoidberg said:
Its the double standards you hold that make you an antisemite. You are implicitly antisemitic
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No. It's a hatred of Jewish people that makes someone antisemitic. No one here hates Jewish people.
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That's exactly the reason I am calling people here antisemites. I think the description fits well

ZiprHead said:
Get a dictionary. Read it. Learn from it. And stop calling everyone antisemites. It's bullshit from the get go.
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Not everyone. Just the antisemites
 
laughing dog said:
DrZoidberg said:
laughing dog said:
DrZoidberg said:
laughing dog said:
DrZoidberg said:
laughing dog said:
DrZoidberg said:
Ok, then. Then how do you explain your double standards? And your problem with Israel defending itself? Your whitewashing of, the pretty extreme, Palestinian war crimes? Do you really not understand how that comes across as antisemitism?
Click to expand...
I haven’t whitewashed or defended Hamas’s violence, so I don’t see any double standards on my part. Nor do I have a problem with Israel defending itself - the issue for me and others is the manner of that defense. Perhaps you can present an actual quote of mine to substantiate your conclusion.


Dr Zoidberg said:
Then how do you propose Israel defends itself? Do you not understand how you are condoning Hamas' use of Palestinian human shields by using that as an argument against Israel and their ability to hit back?
Click to expand...
I am not condoning their tactics.
Click to expand...

I think you are holding Israel to impossible standards. I think you are an apologetic for Hamas' strategy of manipulating public opinion by maximising the suffering for the Palestinian people. The more we let Hamas get away with this shit, but being angry at Israel, for what Hamas is doing, the more Hamas will feel empowered.
Click to expand...
I understand you have beliefs about my position. I asked for the basis of your conclusion of my antisemitism. You respond with an explanation of your beliefs. So, without actual evidence, your accusation is faith-based.
Click to expand...

I think you have double standards. I get the impression that you think Jews don't have a right to defend themselves and should just tolerate being relentlessly attacked. You know, like Jews always have been treated.
Click to expand...
Still waiting for you to produce quotes that provide the basis for your accusations.
Click to expand...

Its the double standards you hold that make you an antisemite. You are implicitly antisemitic ….
Click to expand...
You’ve been asked to produce evidence to support your accusations, and your responses are to repeat your slanderous opinions. Which suggests there is no evidence that exists out if the cesspool of your views.
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You mean accept all the evidence I have referenced? Sorry, not sorry, for making you face the reality of your position
 
Loren Pechtel said:
Jimmy Higgins said:
zorq said:
Do you think Israel would ever choose to lose willingly if winning proved to be too costly in human life or their own humanity?

Israel seems willing to sacrifice everyone and everything in order to win. How are they different?
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I think that is overstepping it a bit. Israel has not demonstrated, in my opinion, a scorched Earth technique. I think the trouble is Israel is managing Gaza like it is a military and religious issue instead of a political one, and Israel isn't alone with that. Sadly, Trump fucked up the Iran deal which would have been a useful first step for a dual pronged Iranian/Saudi rework of the Middle East. But the Saudis didn't want the US getting closer to Iran. Indeed, the trouble in the Middle East stems from the Middle East itself and the inter-political/religious issues amongst themselves. And we kow it isn't even that unified within the borders, hence the authoritarian stuff to both keep out democratic/modernization dissent and terrorism.

Israel is a useful distraction for them. It is one of those, 'they don't need an actual outcome' for it to work in their interests. They just need a distraction.

Ultimately what happens in Palestine, no one cares about. Look at Syria. You see Iran and Saudi Arabia lining up to invest in it? The Middle East is funny. They hate each other as much as they hate us.
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"Trouble is"?? Israel is managing Gaza as a military issue because it is one. It's not a political issue as Gaza is a puppet, not an independent actor.
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And in being a puppet, you accept it is actually a political issue.
Loren Pechtel said:
As for the Iran deal--The Felon was a stopped clock there. Iran wasn't remotely complying with the agreement. Just look at the recent strike: Israel hit nuclear facilities in Iran that were "unknown". If Israel knew they were there they weren't unknown, it's just they were being swept under the rug.
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Yes, I know you think that. The goal with the deal was camel nose under the tent into Iran. That deal wasn't some sort of "Mission Accomplished", we stopped their nuclear program. It was a long-term first step aimed at improving access for intelligence, among other things. Saudi Arabia, however, doesn't want the US to have better relations with an oil rich Shi'ite nation. Let us remember which nation the people and money that allowed 9/11 to happen came from. It wasn't Iran.
Loren Pechtel said:
I do agree that Israel is an EastAsia. But they need the EastAsia war! Iran gains by stirring up as much shit as they can, that doesn't mean we can ignore their shit-stirring.
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The whole point is that Iranians need to overthrow their despotic religious tyranny. That happens with The West leaching into Iran. That happens by agreements between the US and Iran, which Trump fucked up and set us back decades.

Peace in Israel, requires peace with Iran. We ain't going to war with Iran, so that provides us with fewer options. Options that take time, investment, diplomacy. Obama got it rolling on the long path, and the GOP/Sauds fucked it up.
 
DrZoidberg said:
laughing dog said:
DrZoidberg said:
laughing dog said:
DrZoidberg said:
laughing dog said:
DrZoidberg said:
laughing dog said:
DrZoidberg said:
Ok, then. Then how do you explain your double standards? And your problem with Israel defending itself? Your whitewashing of, the pretty extreme, Palestinian war crimes? Do you really not understand how that comes across as antisemitism?
Click to expand...
I haven’t whitewashed or defended Hamas’s violence, so I don’t see any double standards on my part. Nor do I have a problem with Israel defending itself - the issue for me and others is the manner of that defense. Perhaps you can present an actual quote of mine to substantiate your conclusion.


Dr Zoidberg said:
Then how do you propose Israel defends itself? Do you not understand how you are condoning Hamas' use of Palestinian human shields by using that as an argument against Israel and their ability to hit back?
Click to expand...
I am not condoning their tactics.
Click to expand...

I think you are holding Israel to impossible standards. I think you are an apologetic for Hamas' strategy of manipulating public opinion by maximising the suffering for the Palestinian people. The more we let Hamas get away with this shit, but being angry at Israel, for what Hamas is doing, the more Hamas will feel empowered.
Click to expand...
I understand you have beliefs about my position. I asked for the basis of your conclusion of my antisemitism. You respond with an explanation of your beliefs. So, without actual evidence, your accusation is faith-based.
Click to expand...

I think you have double standards. I get the impression that you think Jews don't have a right to defend themselves and should just tolerate being relentlessly attacked. You know, like Jews always have been treated.
Click to expand...
Still waiting for you to produce quotes that provide the basis for your accusations.
Click to expand...

Its the double standards you hold that make you an antisemite. You are implicitly antisemitic ….
Click to expand...
You’ve been asked to produce evidence to support your accusations, and your responses are to repeat your slanderous opinions. Which suggests there is no evidence that exists out if the cesspool of your views.
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You mean accept all the evidence I have referenced? Sorry, not sorry, for making you face the reality of your position
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You have not referenced a single quote of mine. Not one. Either you don’t understand what evidence is or you don’t have any. All you need to do is produce a quote of mine (hopefully in context) that leads you to your conclusion but only if you wish to your post taken seriously instead of being viewed as the rantings of a raving bigot.

My maternal great grandparents and great uncle were killed by Nazis because they were Jews. Frankly, if we were discussing this in person, after the 2nd slander, I’d be facing criminal charges.
 
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DrZoidberg said:
I think you don't understand how a group of posts can all imply the same thing.
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FFS, then it should be easy for you to produce some. But you are still unable to produce anything. You’ve got nothing of substance to back your accusations you’ve made against posters in this thread.

My views are not dissimilar to many Isrealis or American Jews. They are not antisemites. Neither am I or any of the other posters you’ve slandered in this thread.

Your insulting accusations used to bother me but I’ve come to realize you are a Swedish version of Donald Trump - the only way you can handle disagreements is through mud slinging.
 
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laughing dog said:
DrZoidberg said:
I think you don't understand how a group of posts can all imply the same thing.
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FFS, then it should be easy for you to produce some. But you are still unable to produce anything. You’ve got nothing of substance to back your accusations you’ve made against posters in this thread.
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You're just trying to wave it away. Sorry. That's not how it works

laughing dog said:
My views are not dissimilar to many Isrealis or American Jews. They are not antisemites. Neither am I or any of the other posters you’ve slandered in this thread.
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There's a difference. Jews often criticise Israel because they are aware of antisemitism and know that antisemitic blowback has historically been harsh.

But I think, fuck that. Jews deserve the same level of respect as anyone. I don't want anyone to accept being perpetually bullied, just because its the traditional norm

laughing dog said:
Your insulting accusations used to bother me but I’ve come to realize you are a Swedish version of Donald Trump - the only way you can handle disagreements is through mud slinging.
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Lol. Calling you out is not mud slinging
 
DrZoidberg said:
laughing dog said:
Your insulting accusations used to bother me but I’ve come to realize you are a Swedish version of Donald Trump - the only way you can handle disagreements is through mud slinging.
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Lol. Calling you out is not mud slinging
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Of course, if you use a word so loosely (and commonly), your use of the word becomes irrelevant.
 
DrZoidberg said:
laughing dog said:
DrZoidberg said:
I think you don't understand how a group of posts can all imply the same thing.
Click to expand...

FFS, then it should be easy for you to produce some. But you are still unable to produce anything. You’ve got nothing of substance to back your accusations you’ve made against posters in this thread.
Click to expand...

You're just trying to wave it away. Sorry. That's not how it works

laughing dog said:
My views are not dissimilar to many Isrealis or American Jews. They are not antisemites. Neither am I or any of the other posters you’ve slandered in this thread.
Click to expand...

There's a difference. Jews often criticise Israel because they are aware of antisemitism and know that antisemitic blowback has historically been harsh.

But I think, fuck that. Jews deserve the same level of respect as anyone. I don't want anyone to accept being perpetually bullied, just because its the traditional norm

laughing dog said:
Your insulting accusations used to bother me but I’ve come to realize you are a Swedish version of Donald Trump - the only way you can handle disagreements is through mud slinging.
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Lol. Calling you out is not mud slinging
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You are only fooling yourself (which is not terribly difficult).
 
DrZoidberg said:
There's a difference. Jews often criticise Israel because they are aware of antisemitism and know that antisemitic blowback has historically been harsh.
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Zoid, you know I agree with you about nearly all the big issues here. But I also wish you would stop throwing around the word antisemitism.

It's excruciatingly unclear. The Palestinians are a semitic people. It's more about vague connotations than accuracy.

Speaking for myself,
I generally prefer Judaism over any of the other flavors of Abrahamic religion. Also Jewish culture. I'm not remotely anti Jewish.

I also understand and support a country where Jewish people are safe from the government at least. I'm a supporter of Israel/Zion. That's not the same as being okay with everything the Israeli government does. But I'm not an anti Zionist by any means.
The word antisemitism, as you are using it in this thread, is worse than useless. It's an impediment to discussion.
Tom
 
TomC said:
DrZoidberg said:
There's a difference. Jews often criticise Israel because they are aware of antisemitism and know that antisemitic blowback has historically been harsh.
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Zoid, you know I agree with you about nearly all the big issues here. But I also wish you would stop throwing around the word antisemitism.

It's excruciatingly unclear. The Palestinians are a semitic people. It's more about vague connotations than accuracy.

Speaking for myself,
I generally prefer Judaism over any of the other flavors of Abrahamic religion. Also Jewish culture. I'm not remotely anti Jewish.

I also understand and support a country where Jewish people are safe from the government at least. I'm a supporter of Israel/Zion. That's not the same as being okay with everything the Israeli government does. But I'm not an anti Zionist by any means.
The word antisemitism, as you are using it in this thread, is worse than useless. It's an impediment to discussion.
Tom
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If someone has a problem with Israel for no reason, that only leaves one reason.

I also think that antisemitism is a huge problem in the west. Its just so very easy to hate Jews for us. That most people don't stop and think about it.

The history of Totalitarianism by Hannah Arendt is a great book on it. A more correct title would be, Why everyone in the west hates Jews.

Yes Arabs are also semites. But that's not what anyone means when they say antisemitism. I don’t think anyone confuses those

I am also not a Zionist. I'm an atheist. I think the whole thing is complete bullshit. As far as I am concerned Israel was a happy accident for the Jews. But Israel also belongs to the Palestinians. Genetically there's of course no difference between Palestinians and Mizrahi Jews. Quibbling about who was there first is retarded.
 
Jimmy Higgins said:
Arctish said:
Jimmy Higgins said:
Israel was a "happy accident"? It was born out of the holocaust.
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... after nearly 20 years of gestation with lots of blood, suffering, and risk of death.
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It seems forgotten that while the US was one of the first to recognize Israel, we weren't exactly the allies we are now for a good long while.
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People seem to prefer the fairy tale version of the story: Gawd sent the Archangel Michael to cleave the land along the Mediterranean shore from Lebanon to Egypt with a flaming sword, had all the other angels pull on the sides to widen the rift so that a land without a people for a people without a land could rise up out of the Earth and be populated by His Preferred Demographic, and the US was right there helping because the US is always and forever on the "right" side of history.

TBF, it's a nice story.
 
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