Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[DrZoidberg]

Ok, then. Then how do you explain your double standards? And your problem with Israel defending itself? Your whitewashing of, the pretty extreme, Palestinian war crimes? Do you really not understand how that comes across as antisemitism?

I haven’t whitewashed or defended Hamas’s violence, so I don’t see any double standards on my part. Nor do I have a problem with Israel defending itself - the issue for me and others is the manner of that defense. Perhaps you can present an actual quote of mine to substantiate your conclusion.

Then how do you propose Israel defends itself? Do you not understand how you are condoning Hamas' use of Palestinian human shields by using that as an argument against Israel and their ability to hit back?

I am not condoning their tactics.

I think you are holding Israel to impossible standards. I think you are an apologetic for Hamas' strategy of manipulating public opinion by maximising the suffering for the Palestinian people. The more we let Hamas get away with this shit, but being angry at Israel, for what Hamas is doing, the more Hamas will feel empowered.

Anyway... it's all academic now. The Assad regime has fallen. Iran's main pipeline to funnel guns to Hamas and Hizbollah has been severed. Hopefully for good. The new Syrian regime is allied to Turkey. So no game for Iran. The rest of the Middle Eastern Arab nations seem to be sensible, as far as Israel is concerned. So the endgame for Hamas is nigh

My Syrian hairdresser was in such a good mood today, (when I got my haircut) that it was hard for it not to rub off on me. He was Kurd. So not particularly jolly about an ex Al Qaeda and ex ISIS guy now being in power in Syria. But then again... it's to be a worse dictator than Assad. So he was in a good mood

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Ok, then. Then how do you explain your double standards? And your problem with Israel defending itself? Your whitewashing of, the pretty extreme, Palestinian war crimes? Do you really not understand how that comes across as antisemitism?

I haven’t whitewashed or defended Hamas’s violence, so I don’t see any double standards on my part. Nor do I have a problem with Israel defending itself - the issue for me and others is the manner of that defense. Perhaps you can present an actual quote of mine to substantiate your conclusion.

Then how do you propose Israel defends itself? Do you not understand how you are condoning Hamas' use of Palestinian human shields by using that as an argument against Israel and their ability to hit back?

I am not condoning their tactics.

I think you are holding Israel to impossible standards. I think you are an apologetic for Hamas' strategy of manipulating public opinion by maximising the suffering for the Palestinian people. The more we let Hamas get away with this shit, but being angry at Israel, for what Hamas is doing, the more Hamas will feel empowered.

I'm not under the perception that Hamas is feeling particularly empowered at the moment.

Anyway... it's all academic now. The Assad regime has fallen. Iran's main pipeline to funnel guns to Hamas and Hizbollah has been severed. Hopefully for good. The new Syrian regime is allied to Turkey. So no game for Iran. The rest of the Middle Eastern Arab nations seem to be sensible, as far as Israel is concerned. So the endgame for Hamas is nigh

That is optimistic. Quite overly so. You make it sound like it was lollipops and gum drops prior to Hamas.

My Syrian hairdresser was in such a good mood today, (when I got my haircut) that it was hard for it not to rub off on me. He was Kurd. So not particularly jolly about an ex Al Qaeda and ex ISIS guy now being in power in Syria. But then again... it's to be a worse dictator than Assad. So he was in a good mood

Well gosh, if they are in a good mood, I suppose we can start whipping out the Peace Prizes today. We'll ignore the massive uncertainty that exists regarding Syria at the moment, and even if in the best circumstances, the ability of the new guys (formerly and currently known as terrorists) being able to secure a plot of land (and its border) that big.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Ok, then. Then how do you explain your double standards? And your problem with Israel defending itself? Your whitewashing of, the pretty extreme, Palestinian war crimes? Do you really not understand how that comes across as antisemitism?

I haven’t whitewashed or defended Hamas’s violence, so I don’t see any double standards on my part. Nor do I have a problem with Israel defending itself - the issue for me and others is the manner of that defense. Perhaps you can present an actual quote of mine to substantiate your conclusion.

Then how do you propose Israel defends itself? Do you not understand how you are condoning Hamas' use of Palestinian human shields by using that as an argument against Israel and their ability to hit back?

I am not condoning their tactics.

I think you are holding Israel to impossible standards. I think you are an apologetic for Hamas' strategy of manipulating public opinion by maximising the suffering for the Palestinian people. The more we let Hamas get away with this shit, but being angry at Israel, for what Hamas is doing, the more Hamas will feel empowered.

I'm not under the perception that Hamas is feeling particularly empowered at the moment.

Then why do you think they refuse to negotiate with Israel? It's not like Israel ever has been unreasonable

Anyway... it's all academic now. The Assad regime has fallen. Iran's main pipeline to funnel guns to Hamas and Hizbollah has been severed. Hopefully for good. The new Syrian regime is allied to Turkey. So no game for Iran. The rest of the Middle Eastern Arab nations seem to be sensible, as far as Israel is concerned. So the endgame for Hamas is nigh

That is optimistic. Quite overly so. You make it sound like it was lollipops and gum drops prior to Hamas.

Maybe. Let's hope

My Syrian hairdresser was in such a good mood today, (when I got my haircut) that it was hard for it not to rub off on me. He was Kurd. So not particularly jolly about an ex Al Qaeda and ex ISIS guy now being in power in Syria. But then again... it's to be a worse dictator than Assad. So he was in a good mood

Well gosh, if they are in a good mood, I suppose we can start whipping out the Peace Prizes today. We'll ignore the massive uncertainty that exists regarding Syria at the moment, and even if in the best circumstances, the ability of the new guys (formerly and currently known as terrorists) being able to secure a plot of land (and its border) that big.

Well, negative Nancy. Don't ruin the moment with your sober skepticism

 

[laughing dog]

Ok, then. Then how do you explain your double standards? And your problem with Israel defending itself? Your whitewashing of, the pretty extreme, Palestinian war crimes? Do you really not understand how that comes across as antisemitism?

I haven’t whitewashed or defended Hamas’s violence, so I don’t see any double standards on my part. Nor do I have a problem with Israel defending itself - the issue for me and others is the manner of that defense. Perhaps you can present an actual quote of mine to substantiate your conclusion.

Then how do you propose Israel defends itself? Do you not understand how you are condoning Hamas' use of Palestinian human shields by using that as an argument against Israel and their ability to hit back?

I am not condoning their tactics.

I think you are holding Israel to impossible standards. I think you are an apologetic for Hamas' strategy of manipulating public opinion by maximising the suffering for the Palestinian people. The more we let Hamas get away with this shit, but being angry at Israel, for what Hamas is doing, the more Hamas will feel empowered.

I understand you have beliefs about my position. I asked for the basis of your conclusion of my antisemitism. You respond with an explanation of your beliefs. So, without actual evidence, your accusation is faith-based.

el. The gov't of Israel made choices. They are not required by the universe or international law or reason to prosecute the war in the current manner. There was and is disagreement among the IDF, the Israeli cabinet, and the Israeli population about how Israel ought to proceed. Are you accusing them of anti-semitism as well?

I am not angry with Israel. I am disappointed.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Ok, then. Then how do you explain your double standards? And your problem with Israel defending itself? Your whitewashing of, the pretty extreme, Palestinian war crimes? Do you really not understand how that comes across as antisemitism?

I haven’t whitewashed or defended Hamas’s violence, so I don’t see any double standards on my part. Nor do I have a problem with Israel defending itself - the issue for me and others is the manner of that defense. Perhaps you can present an actual quote of mine to substantiate your conclusion.

Then how do you propose Israel defends itself? Do you not understand how you are condoning Hamas' use of Palestinian human shields by using that as an argument against Israel and their ability to hit back?

I am not condoning their tactics.

I think you are holding Israel to impossible standards. I think you are an apologetic for Hamas' strategy of manipulating public opinion by maximising the suffering for the Palestinian people. The more we let Hamas get away with this shit, but being angry at Israel, for what Hamas is doing, the more Hamas will feel empowered.

I understand you have beliefs about my position. I asked for the basis of your conclusion of my antisemitism. You respond with an explanation of your beliefs. So, without actual evidence, your accusation is faith-based.

I think you have double standards. I get the impression that you think Jews don't have a right to defend themselves and should just tolerate being relentlessly attacked. You know, like Jews always have been treated.

I am super impressed by how well behaved the IDF are. If an army gets shit, even when they behave well, then something is warped with the interpretations of their actions

el. The gov't of Israel made choices. They are not required by the universe or international law or reason to prosecute the war in the current manner. There was and is disagreement among the IDF, the Israeli cabinet, and the Israeli population about how Israel ought to proceed. Are you accusing them of anti-semitism as well?

I am not angry with Israel. I am disappointed.

So how are they supposed to get the hostages back? Do you think that it's acceptable that Hamas took those hostages? The fact that Hamas took the hostages does give Israel every right to enter Gaza until they find them. IMHO

 

[laughing dog]

Ok, then. Then how do you explain your double standards? And your problem with Israel defending itself? Your whitewashing of, the pretty extreme, Palestinian war crimes? Do you really not understand how that comes across as antisemitism?

I haven’t whitewashed or defended Hamas’s violence, so I don’t see any double standards on my part. Nor do I have a problem with Israel defending itself - the issue for me and others is the manner of that defense. Perhaps you can present an actual quote of mine to substantiate your conclusion.

Then how do you propose Israel defends itself? Do you not understand how you are condoning Hamas' use of Palestinian human shields by using that as an argument against Israel and their ability to hit back?

I am not condoning their tactics.

I think you are holding Israel to impossible standards. I think you are an apologetic for Hamas' strategy of manipulating public opinion by maximising the suffering for the Palestinian people. The more we let Hamas get away with this shit, but being angry at Israel, for what Hamas is doing, the more Hamas will feel empowered.

I understand you have beliefs about my position. I asked for the basis of your conclusion of my antisemitism. You respond with an explanation of your beliefs. So, without actual evidence, your accusation is faith-based.

I think you have double standards. I get the impression that you think Jews don't have a right to defend themselves and should just tolerate being relentlessly attacked. You know, like Jews always have been treated.

Still waiting for you to produce quotes that provide the basis for your accusations.

So how are they supposed to get the hostages back? Do you think that it's acceptable that Hamas took those hostages? The fact that Hamas took the hostages does give Israel every right to enter Gaza until they find them. IMHO

Every participant in this thread who you’ve accused of antisemitism has denounced Hamas’s actions, including me. That includes hostage taking.

How’s that hostage rescuing going?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

A big problem in this conflict is that it's the same people who took part in the 7/10 attacks, as are Gazan civilian administrators, aid workers, journalists etc. It's almost like Hamas is struggling to find anyone to put in charge who isn't neck deep in guilt from that attack. the world doesn't divide neatly into 'good guys' and 'bad guys', and that simply killing all the bad guys just means killing everyone.

FTFY.

Reality is a complex and shitty mess. Simpletons pursuing simple solutions and simple "justice" do not make this better; They make it worse.

Blame the Jews is a simple "solution" that does not make it better.

True. Just like blaming Gazan civilians or Iran is a simple "solution" that does not make it better.

Blaming Iran isn't a solution at all, just a recognition of what's going on. Thus your response makes no sense.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No, they're not. That's just blatant antisemitic bullshit. Hamas putting Palestinian civilians in harms way isn't Israel's fault. It's simply not acceptable for one side to make an attack targetting civilians and then immediately withraw using their own people as human shields. Stop getting suckered in by pro-Palestinian propaganda.

Hamas is not required to put civilians in harm's way. Israel is not required to tell civilians to go to safe areas and then bomb those safe areas. bomb those civilians. The Gazan civlians are in harm's way because of choices made by Hamas and the gov't of Israel. That is a fact. While I understand why you feel are propaganda, they are not. So, your response is literally counterfactual.

Your tiresome false accusations of antisemitism make your response appear more like lunatic bigotry than anything else.

You continue to mischaracterize the situation. Things changed. And the safe areas were never meant as a get out of free pass for Hamas, just areas Israel wasn't blowing up tunnels and the like.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Do you think Israel would ever choose to lose willingly if winning proved to be too costly in human life or their own humanity?

Israel seems willing to sacrifice everyone and everything in order to win. How are they different?

Thus showing your lack of understanding of the situation.

Israel is willing to sacrifice everything to win because they know that to lose is to die. Their opponents explicitly intend genocide. Gaza is not under threat if they stop attacking Israel. (Hamas is--without the war Hamas has no money and no power. They would cease to exist.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Do you think Israel would ever choose to lose willingly if winning proved to be too costly in human life or their own humanity?

Israel seems willing to sacrifice everyone and everything in order to win. How are they different?

I think that is overstepping it a bit. Israel has not demonstrated, in my opinion, a scorched Earth technique. I think the trouble is Israel is managing Gaza like it is a military and religious issue instead of a political one, and Israel isn't alone with that. Sadly, Trump fucked up the Iran deal which would have been a useful first step for a dual pronged Iranian/Saudi rework of the Middle East. But the Saudis didn't want the US getting closer to Iran. Indeed, the trouble in the Middle East stems from the Middle East itself and the inter-political/religious issues amongst themselves. And we kow it isn't even that unified within the borders, hence the authoritarian stuff to both keep out democratic/modernization dissent and terrorism.

Israel is a useful distraction for them. It is one of those, 'they don't need an actual outcome' for it to work in their interests. They just need a distraction.

Ultimately what happens in Palestine, no one cares about. Look at Syria. You see Iran and Saudi Arabia lining up to invest in it? The Middle East is funny. They hate each other as much as they hate us.

"Trouble is"?? Israel is managing Gaza as a military issue because it is one. It's not a political issue as Gaza is a puppet, not an independent actor. Until Iran is at the peace talks they don't mean squat.

As for the Iran deal--The Felon was a stopped clock there. Iran wasn't remotely complying with the agreement. Just look at the recent strike: Israel hit nuclear facilities in Iran that were "unknown". If Israel knew they were there they weren't unknown, it's just they were being swept under the rug.

I do agree that Israel is an EastAsia. But they need the EastAsia war! Iran gains by stirring up as much shit as they can, that doesn't mean we can ignore their shit-stirring.

 

[laughing dog]

No, they're not. That's just blatant antisemitic bullshit. Hamas putting Palestinian civilians in harms way isn't Israel's fault. It's simply not acceptable for one side to make an attack targetting civilians and then immediately withraw using their own people as human shields. Stop getting suckered in by pro-Palestinian propaganda.

Hamas is not required to put civilians in harm's way. Israel is not required to tell civilians to go to safe areas and then bomb those safe areas. bomb those civilians. The Gazan civlians are in harm's way because of choices made by Hamas and the gov't of Israel. That is a fact. While I understand why you feel are propaganda, they are not. So, your response is literally counterfactual.

Your tiresome false accusations of antisemitism make your response appear more like lunatic bigotry than anything else.

You continue to mischaracterize the situation. Things changed. And the safe areas were never meant as a get out of free pass for Hamas, just areas Israel wasn't blowing up tunnels and the like.

You continue to slander me. The safe zones are supposed to be safe for civilians. Calling them safe zones is a "mischaracterization" because they aren't safe from hostilities for civilians. And that ignores the general unsanitary and primitive conditions in the safe zones.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But pressing charges against Hamas in the Hague is a waste of time since Hamas is already on everyone's naughty list.

What's your point? It almost sounds like your one-sided news source -- InfoWars? -- didn't tell you that Hamas has been charged.

How much are you willing to bet that this goes anywhere?

Yeah, nothing is going to happen. Notably, the news isn't saying much.

On the flip side:

Tánaiste announces Ireland’s Intervention in proceedings at the ICJ

www.gov.ie

Ireland is trying to get in on the war crimes allegations against Israel--but they are actually admitting that it isn't genocide because they want to redefine genocide to include what's happened.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Ok, then. Then how do you explain your double standards? And your problem with Israel defending itself? Your whitewashing of, the pretty extreme, Palestinian war crimes? Do you really not understand how that comes across as antisemitism?

I haven’t whitewashed or defended Hamas’s violence, so I don’t see any double standards on my part. Nor do I have a problem with Israel defending itself - the issue for me and others is the manner of that defense. Perhaps you can present an actual quote of mine to substantiate your conclusion.

But you do not accept the reality of what defending itself entails and demand an impossible standard. Thus, for practical purposes you want Israel to just sit there and take it.

Then how do you propose Israel defends itself? Do you not understand how you are condoning Hamas' use of Palestinian human shields by using that as an argument against Israel and their ability to hit back?

I am not condoning their tactics.

Except you keep demanding that Israel allow Hamas human shield tactics to work.

I still have not gotten any meaningful reply from anyone to the cartoon of the Hamas fighter with a baby in their plate carrier.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So how are they supposed to get the hostages back? Do you think that it's acceptable that Hamas took those hostages? The fact that Hamas took the hostages does give Israel every right to enter Gaza until they find them. IMHO

Every participant in this thread who you’ve accused of antisemitism has denounced Hamas’s actions, including me. That includes hostage taking.

How’s that hostage rescuing going?

Israel has recovered some. You have objected to their actions.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No, they're not. That's just blatant antisemitic bullshit. Hamas putting Palestinian civilians in harms way isn't Israel's fault. It's simply not acceptable for one side to make an attack targetting civilians and then immediately withraw using their own people as human shields. Stop getting suckered in by pro-Palestinian propaganda.

Hamas is not required to put civilians in harm's way. Israel is not required to tell civilians to go to safe areas and then bomb those safe areas. bomb those civilians. The Gazan civlians are in harm's way because of choices made by Hamas and the gov't of Israel. That is a fact. While I understand why you feel are propaganda, they are not. So, your response is literally counterfactual.

Your tiresome false accusations of antisemitism make your response appear more like lunatic bigotry than anything else.

You continue to mischaracterize the situation. Things changed. And the safe areas were never meant as a get out of free pass for Hamas, just areas Israel wasn't blowing up tunnels and the like.

You continue to slander me. The safe zones are supposed to be safe for civilians. Calling them safe zones is a "mischaracterization" because they aren't safe from hostilities for civilians. And that ignores the general unsanitary and primitive conditions in the safe zones.

I'm not slandering, just calling attention to your cherry-picking. And you continue to blame Israel for what Hamas intended to happen.

 

[laughing dog]

No, they're not. That's just blatant antisemitic bullshit. Hamas putting Palestinian civilians in harms way isn't Israel's fault. It's simply not acceptable for one side to make an attack targetting civilians and then immediately withraw using their own people as human shields. Stop getting suckered in by pro-Palestinian propaganda.

Hamas is not required to put civilians in harm's way. Israel is not required to tell civilians to go to safe areas and then bomb those safe areas. bomb those civilians. The Gazan civlians are in harm's way because of choices made by Hamas and the gov't of Israel. That is a fact. While I understand why you feel are propaganda, they are not. So, your response is literally counterfactual.

Your tiresome false accusations of antisemitism make your response appear more like lunatic bigotry than anything else.

You continue to mischaracterize the situation. Things changed. And the safe areas were never meant as a get out of free pass for Hamas, just areas Israel wasn't blowing up tunnels and the like.

You continue to slander me. The safe zones are supposed to be safe for civilians. Calling them safe zones is a "mischaracterization" because they aren't safe from hostilities for civilians. And that ignores the general unsanitary and primitive conditions in the safe zones.

I'm not slandering, just calling attention to your cherry-picking. And you continue to blame Israel for what Hamas intended to happen.

Since there was no cherry-picking and there was no blame, so you add to your slander. One would think a moderator would know better.

 

[laughing dog]

So how are they supposed to get the hostages back? Do you think that it's acceptable that Hamas took those hostages? The fact that Hamas took the hostages does give Israel every right to enter Gaza until they find them. IMHO

Every participant in this thread who you’ve accused of antisemitism has denounced Hamas’s actions, including me. That includes hostage taking.

How’s that hostage rescuing going?

Israel has recovered some. You have objected to their actions.

Yes, 177 have been recovered alive: 8 rescued, 105 in a prisoner exchange and 4 unilaterally released. I have objected to the massive destruction and death to civilians. There is no way to know what would have occurred without that horrendous cost. But it seems that prisoner exchanges have occurred in the past without such carnage.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No, they're not. That's just blatant antisemitic bullshit. Hamas putting Palestinian civilians in harms way isn't Israel's fault. It's simply not acceptable for one side to make an attack targetting civilians and then immediately withraw using their own people as human shields. Stop getting suckered in by pro-Palestinian propaganda.

Hamas is not required to put civilians in harm's way. Israel is not required to tell civilians to go to safe areas and then bomb those safe areas. bomb those civilians. The Gazan civlians are in harm's way because of choices made by Hamas and the gov't of Israel. That is a fact. While I understand why you feel are propaganda, they are not. So, your response is literally counterfactual.

Your tiresome false accusations of antisemitism make your response appear more like lunatic bigotry than anything else.

You continue to mischaracterize the situation. Things changed. And the safe areas were never meant as a get out of free pass for Hamas, just areas Israel wasn't blowing up tunnels and the like.

You continue to slander me. The safe zones are supposed to be safe for civilians. Calling them safe zones is a "mischaracterization" because they aren't safe from hostilities for civilians. And that ignores the general unsanitary and primitive conditions in the safe zones.

I'm not slandering, just calling attention to your cherry-picking. And you continue to blame Israel for what Hamas intended to happen.

Since there was no cherry-picking and there was no blame, so you add to your slander. One would think a moderator would know better.

Maybe you're not the one that picked the cherries but there's cherry picking here--the situation changed. Israel had the civilians move around because that gave Israel a chance to filter out Hamas people hiding amongst them. Hamas of course hated that and reports it as Israel bombing the safe zones.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So how are they supposed to get the hostages back? Do you think that it's acceptable that Hamas took those hostages? The fact that Hamas took the hostages does give Israel every right to enter Gaza until they find them. IMHO

Every participant in this thread who you’ve accused of antisemitism has denounced Hamas’s actions, including me. That includes hostage taking.

How’s that hostage rescuing going?

Israel has recovered some. You have objected to their actions.

Yes, 177 have been recovered alive: 8 rescued, 105 in a prisoner exchange and 4 unilaterally released. I have objected to the massive destruction and death to civilians. There is no way to know what would have occurred without that horrendous cost. But it seems that prisoner exchanges have occurred in the past without such carnage.

You pretend to have no way to know but look at the past prisoner exchanges you refer to. Massively lopsided. Apply that to the 10/7 situation and what do you get? Israel did and recognized that it was a non-starter. Besides, previous prisoner exchanges released people that killed more than the hostages Israel got back for them. This makes any such deal bad for Israel.

 

[laughing dog]

No, they're not. That's just blatant antisemitic bullshit. Hamas putting Palestinian civilians in harms way isn't Israel's fault. It's simply not acceptable for one side to make an attack targetting civilians and then immediately withraw using their own people as human shields. Stop getting suckered in by pro-Palestinian propaganda.

Hamas is not required to put civilians in harm's way. Israel is not required to tell civilians to go to safe areas and then bomb those safe areas. bomb those civilians. The Gazan civlians are in harm's way because of choices made by Hamas and the gov't of Israel. That is a fact. While I understand why you feel are propaganda, they are not. So, your response is literally counterfactual.

Your tiresome false accusations of antisemitism make your response appear more like lunatic bigotry than anything else.

You continue to mischaracterize the situation. Things changed. And the safe areas were never meant as a get out of free pass for Hamas, just areas Israel wasn't blowing up tunnels and the like.

You continue to slander me. The safe zones are supposed to be safe for civilians. Calling them safe zones is a "mischaracterization" because they aren't safe from hostilities for civilians. And that ignores the general unsanitary and primitive conditions in the safe zones.

I'm not slandering, just calling attention to your cherry-picking. And you continue to blame Israel for what Hamas intended to happen.

Since there was no cherry-picking and there was no blame, so you add to your slander. One would think a moderator would know better.

Maybe you're not the one that picked the cherries but there's cherry picking here

Yes, and you should stop it.

--the situation changed. Israel had the civilians move around because that gave Israel a chance to filter out Hamas people hiding amongst them. Hamas of course hated that and reports it as Israel bombing the safe zones.

You are arguing that Israel sent people to "Filtering Hamas zones" but that is not what they were called. Calling them "safety zones" is misleading (to put it charitably). It almost sounds to me like you are accusing Israel of deliberately mislabeling the zones for international public relations purposes.