DrZoidberg
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Ok, then. How about this. If someone bases opinions on obvious bullshit, using transparent double standards and the seemingly only factor left is the Jewishness. Then the conclusion is antisemitism.
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Ok, then. How about this. If someone bases opinions on obvious bullshit, using transparent double standards and the seemingly only factor left is the Jewishness. Then the conclusion is antisemitism.
steve_bank
Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
I listened to a BBC report that focused on soldiers soldiers refusing to fight in Gaza. A small number. In one case an order was refused to destroy a Palestinian home for no good reason. Active soldiers who refuse to fight are quietly being allowed to leave, conscientious objectors are going to jail.
From the report terms like ‘ethnic cleansing’ are being heard openly from the government. The religious right is gaining power in the military. It is becoming a religious war.
With Assad gone Israel is booming Syria without restraint, and it has said it will now colonize the buffer zone between Syria and Israel.
Tom me Israel and Netanyahu is as ugly as Putin and Russia. Same goals and same tactics, utter deduction and occupation.
From the report terms like ‘ethnic cleansing’ are being heard openly from the government. The religious right is gaining power in the military. It is becoming a religious war.
With Assad gone Israel is booming Syria without restraint, and it has said it will now colonize the buffer zone between Syria and Israel.
Tom me Israel and Netanyahu is as ugly as Putin and Russia. Same goals and same tactics, utter deduction and occupation.
TomC
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How about this.
Your opinion that their opinions are based on obvious bullshit, using transparent double standards, doesn't make you a mind reader.
Nor does it make antisemitism a meaningful word in the context. Nor does it mean that the opinions are based on religion.
Dude, you know I agree with you about most of the issues, but using the word antisemitism just makes things worse.
Tom
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Who has done that? State the opinions you feel are based on bullshit.
steve_bank
Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
Netanyahu is facing criminal p[prosecution, he tried to remove judicial oversight of legislation. Dictatorship 101. He was facing rising opposition before the war.
The war keeps him in power. Netanyahu says Israel will maintain control of Gaza, there will be settlements in Gaza and what is now considered Syrian land. He may become an Israeli hero.
Israel is doing what it has done starting with seizing Palestinian land at the founding leading to all violence.
It has nothing to do with antisemitism.
The war keeps him in power. Netanyahu says Israel will maintain control of Gaza, there will be settlements in Gaza and what is now considered Syrian land. He may become an Israeli hero.
Israel is doing what it has done starting with seizing Palestinian land at the founding leading to all violence.
It has nothing to do with antisemitism.
DrZoidberg
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The criticism against Israel in this thread has been absurd. They've handled themselve extremely well. Not overstepped and only targetted legitimate targets. Mistakes happen in war. But this time around Israel has been awesome. Probably the best behaved army in human history. I'm assuming the reason they're so well behaved is their awereness of antisemitism in the world.
Despite this they're being criticised in western press, holding Israel to impossible standards. Not only that, but the behaviour of Hamas, while accurately reported by the Western press, (if you read carefully) doesn't seem to cause anyone to react and condemn Hamas. Actions have consequences. If a beligerent behaves like Hamas their oponent has to respond to counter it. Which Hamas is using to manipulate western public opinion and western press.
This conflict has brought home just how antisemtic the world is. And it makes me very uncomfortable. The Jews just can't get a break.
Another factor that few people react to is just how preposterously unrealistic Palestinian demands are. Liberal Palestinians want to be set up as a Muslim master race in Israel. That's their baseline demand. While more conservative Palestinians want the Jews wiped out. This is rarely commented on. Why would Israel negotiate with people like that? What could possible come out of it? And fuck the Oslo accord. The Palestinians never respected it. It was just a way for them to move the line one step closer to their end goal, the eradication of Israel.
And here's a news flash, on average Palestinians aren't a modern liberal western community. They are Muslim. They have different values. They have the same values that led to every Arab spring uprising going to shit. For whatever reason Arabs/Muslims aren't so good at democracy and respecting liberal values. Muslim culture seems to be inherently imperialistic. A relentless unstoppable force that continuously pushes toward world domination. My Jewish Israeli ex-wife said that many Israelis see the the Muslims as weeds that need to be trimmed now and again. I now understand what she meant. If you're dealing with unreasonable people, there's just no point to engage with them.
Bottom line, the progressive west are woefully naive when it comes to the Middle-East. We just don't seem to deal well with expantiostic imperialists today. Like Putin. Or China. Stalin, Musselini or Hitler. Or queen Victoria. This attitude and behaviour isn't new. We in the west just struggle to grasp that what we perceive is the norm, western liberal progressive values, just isn't universally held beliefs. I think the pro-Palestinian voices in this thread have trouble with accepting that.
DrZoidberg
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He is an Israeli hero. Or a hero in general. He became incredibly impopular in Israel because he allowed the 7/10 attack to happen. But has since made up for it by handling himself and Israel exceptionally well.
Yes, blame the victim. Such a fresh new take
Sure
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I’d rather be labeled antisemitic than be someone who condones the killing of children. You condone the killing of children. Both you and TomC.
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I understand that you believe the deaths of children in Gaza are entirely the fault of Hamas. I agree that Hamas's actions, such as using civilians as shields, are reprehensible and contribute to the suffering of innocents. However, we cannot overlook the broader reality of what this argument implies.
When you argue the deaths of children are "entirely" the fault of Hamas, you risk absolving the IDF of any moral responsibility for the outcomes of their actions. It’s a fact that the IDF chooses when and where to strike. These choices, even in the face of a ruthless adversary like Hamas, result in the deaths of innocent children. If the IDF knows that their actions will likely lead to children casualties and they proceed anyway, responsibility cannot be placed on Hamas alone.
Imagine this scenario: if someone deliberately places a child in harm’s way, and another person knowingly shoots through the child to hit their target, does the shooter bear no responsibility for the child's death? Most would argue that both parties hold responsibility, the one using the child as a shield and the one who made the deliberate choice to shoot, knowing the likely outcome.
Blaming Hamas entirely also risks dehumanizing the victims, these children, by treating their deaths as an inevitable collateral damage of war. But every child killed is a tragedy, a life lost that could have been spared with greater care and restraint. This isn't to minimize the challenges of fighting a group like Hamas, but to ask: is there not a shared duty to avoid children casualties, even under the most difficult circumstances?
Placing all the blame on Hamas shifts focus away from the harm caused by the very actions of those carrying out the strikes. It implicitly suggests that as long as Hamas is at fault, any outcome, even the killing of children, is justifiable. But can we really accept that? Is this the standard we want to uphold for ourselves, for humanity?
The death of children, no matter the circumstances, should cause us to pause, to question, and to demand better from everyone involved. It is not enough to point fingers. Unless of course you're ok with killing children to get to Hamas. Clearly both you DrZoidberg and TomC are.
When you argue the deaths of children are "entirely" the fault of Hamas, you risk absolving the IDF of any moral responsibility for the outcomes of their actions. It’s a fact that the IDF chooses when and where to strike. These choices, even in the face of a ruthless adversary like Hamas, result in the deaths of innocent children. If the IDF knows that their actions will likely lead to children casualties and they proceed anyway, responsibility cannot be placed on Hamas alone.
Imagine this scenario: if someone deliberately places a child in harm’s way, and another person knowingly shoots through the child to hit their target, does the shooter bear no responsibility for the child's death? Most would argue that both parties hold responsibility, the one using the child as a shield and the one who made the deliberate choice to shoot, knowing the likely outcome.
Blaming Hamas entirely also risks dehumanizing the victims, these children, by treating their deaths as an inevitable collateral damage of war. But every child killed is a tragedy, a life lost that could have been spared with greater care and restraint. This isn't to minimize the challenges of fighting a group like Hamas, but to ask: is there not a shared duty to avoid children casualties, even under the most difficult circumstances?
Placing all the blame on Hamas shifts focus away from the harm caused by the very actions of those carrying out the strikes. It implicitly suggests that as long as Hamas is at fault, any outcome, even the killing of children, is justifiable. But can we really accept that? Is this the standard we want to uphold for ourselves, for humanity?
The death of children, no matter the circumstances, should cause us to pause, to question, and to demand better from everyone involved. It is not enough to point fingers. Unless of course you're ok with killing children to get to Hamas. Clearly both you DrZoidberg and TomC are.
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I understand that some actions, though tragic in the short term, are often justified as a means to prevent even greater loss of life over time. The U.S. decision to drop atomic bombs on Japan is frequently framed in this way: as a swift conclusion to the war that avoided a prolonged conflict potentially costing millions more lives. However, even if we accept this reasoning, it does not diminish the profound moral tragedy of the innocent lives lost.
This is why I’ve been focused on Israel’s endgame. Having effectively carried out their version of Hiroshima, will it truly bring the conflict to an end? Does anyone here genuinely believe that eliminating Hamas will resolve the deeper conflict? I think we all know the answer to that.
This is why I’ve been focused on Israel’s endgame. Having effectively carried out their version of Hiroshima, will it truly bring the conflict to an end? Does anyone here genuinely believe that eliminating Hamas will resolve the deeper conflict? I think we all know the answer to that.
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By that statement, it shows you are totally irrational over this subject. Trying to rationalize with you would futile. I'm out.
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It’s clear that you’re unwilling to engage in reasoned discussion, as every post you label as hating Israel or Jews without cause has, in fact, provided a clear reason for the critique. What you’re doing is akin to accusing someone of being a rapist, pedophile, or similarly vile things simply because you disagree with their opinions. I strongly suggest you stop this behavior.
DrZoidberg
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I disagree
Its not like the information isn't out there. Even though mainstream media has formulations and emphasis that is heavily slanted toward the Palestinians, (and against Israel) the information they present is still accurate.
Pay attention to stuff like "...according to Hamas".
Whenever Hamas makes an accusation against Israel its all uncritically and uncommented repeated, even though Hamas no longer has a functioning administration that could provide accurate data.
Israels responses are quoted, but squeezed in as a side note. Israel has in this conflict been completely transparent and honest. Which is remarkable and pretty unique.
The accusations Hamas keeps making against Israel are mostly preposterous. Their ability to know what's going on in Gaza is supernatural. Maybe not accurate?
Hamas keeps preventing aid getting to the Palestinian civilians and then blames Israel. Its absurd. And western press keeps eating it up.
I think mainstream press is antisemitic right now. I won't write liberal press, because the only quality reporting is liberal. The conservative/right wing press is just utter nonsense. That makes it hard to stay informed, in a somewhat unbiased way. Due to Qatars involvement on the Palestine side, Al Jazeera, which normally manages to be quite balanced, has now gone completely pro-Hamas
The connection between Iran, Syria, Russia, Turkey, Hezboallah, Lebanon, Hamas, PA and Gaza is rarely mentioned, even though these are all extremely interconnected conflicts. Basically just one big conflict. Even the war in Ukraine has had a huge impact on the war in Gaza. None of this is mentioned when people talk about the war in Gaza. Its treated as an isolated and contained conflict
DrZoidberg
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That's quite a lengthy way to justify being okay with children being killed because, in your view, Hamas makes it acceptable.
What you continue to ignore is that things can change. Today's safe zone doesn't mean it's always going to be a safe zone.
Why should we not expect Hamas to make demands similar to the already-established "price"??
The last prisoner swap ended up killing a lot more Israelis than the prisoners they got back. Thus it was a very bad deal for Israel--so of course the world is trying to cram it down their throat.
Their opponents are not facing genocide. If they stop attacking Israel and they return the hostages there will be no more combat. And Israel hasn't been engaging in genocide in the first place. Not that the world actually cares:
How Yarmouk refugee camp became the worst place in Syria | Jonathan Steele
The long read: Yarmouk, near the centre of Damascus, prospered as a safe haven for Palestinians. Under siege, it is now a prison for its remaining residents, who survive on little food and water, with no hope of escape
Actual denial of food and water to a population they didn't like. But since it was an internal matter to Islam this barely got a mention even at the time. We only hear about "genocide" when the Jews can be blamed.
Iran is using Gaza as a weapon against Israel. This isn't a response to anything Israel has done, it's a response to Israel's very existence.
Leave to where? And if they're driven out of Israel why do you think they would be safe anywhere? And how do you adapt to those who explicitly intend to kill all of you? Blame the real cause: Iran.
Israel has the world's best record at protecting civilians in combat situations. That's not chance, that's skill and deliberate effort.
Can't claim self defense? It's widely acknowledged that the fighting would stop if people quit poking Israel.
DrZoidberg
Contributor
What kind of monster are you? Your morals seem despicable
Hamas doesn't make it acceptable. Hamas is guilty of those children dying. Let's put the blame where it belongs
What he's reacting to is the utter willingness to believe any allegation against Israel, the unwillingness to believe anything Israel says and the expectation of impossible standards.
While none of these are directly antsemitic the pattern sure looks like antisemitism.