Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm not finding what I was after so I'll go from memory on it. They dropped a bomb on a commander and it detonated a bunch of explosives on the ground.

A gif in the wiki article about the strike in question (that he posted, mind you) clearly shows a secondary explosion.

Could be the bomb struck in one corner of the building destroying that section of the building and the energy from the explosion forced its way down corridor(s) of the remainder of the building and possibly through closed doors and out some window(s) milliseconds later. Couldn't it? Concrete walls and wooden doors might make this scenario possible.
I guess we all see what we want to see.

I thought it was determined that the secondary explosions came from tanks of propane being used for heating and cooking.

You're skipping a link in the chain. What we are seeing there isn't propane tanks, it's explosives. The damage was done when that blast damaged cooking equipment and starting fires. The fires were fuel (whether it was propane or not I do not know), the boom was not.

Who did the investigation, and where is their report?

What report are you referring to? What honest report could even exist? Hamas isn't going to be honest and nobody else has access to do it. What we do have:

1) The video that has already been linked. Perfectly ordinary case of a secondary from hitting explosives. Since the era of televised war we have seen a lot of such footage.

2) Israel has said the warehouse went up with a considerably larger bang than what they dropped.

3) The reporting from on scene says the deaths were due to fire from damaged cooking equipment spilling fuel.

I see no reason to get fancy here, we have an event that's happened many times before. It's just this time it caused a fire.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

IDF is being cautious. They’re cautious to the extreme. Your demand that they are more cautious is absurd. How could Israel be more cautious than now?

Once again, I haven’t made the demands you claim I'm making. My only issue has been with people treating the casualties as if their deaths were deserved. It’s literally right there in the quote for you to see.

You are making the demand--you complain about any deaths to human shields.

I do not consider the deaths "deserved", but I recognize that they're going to happen and blaming Israel every time they happen isn't useful. You're playing right into Hamas' hands. Their track record is extremely good, I don't see how any of us are qualified to second guess their actions. But Hamas parades the dead kids before the cameras and the facts get ignored.

 

[TomC]

For example, I take it you approve of military action to defeat Hamas. Does that approval include the effective ethnic cleansing or genocide or the deaths of half the civilian population if Gaza?

Yes, if that's what it takes to convince Gazans to get rid of the violent extremists who are currently the Gazans leaders. It would be better if someone could come up with a better way to do that, but nobody has a feasible path towards that. Israel has no reason try, given all the times their efforts to make peace with their Muslim neighbors has resulted in yet more violence against innocent people.

If not, I hope you can begin to understand how meaningless a simple answer to your simple question is.

I hope you can begin to realize how meaningless a simple answer to your simple question is.
But I doubt that you will.
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

How could the IDF possibly be more cautious? While also keeping their own troops alive?

My problem with your attitude is that it places absurd demands on IDF

I have not demanded anything from the IDF. TomC claimed that all Palestinians are equivalent to Hamas, and you echoed that sentiment alongside Loren. Even Israel itself isn't making such sweeping statements and is, in fact, taking measures to minimize civilian casualties wherever possible. I have never denied that casualties will occur, nor have I criticized Israel's right to defend itself or demanded anything unreasonable of the IDF. On the contrary, I have consistently supported and encouraged the elimination of Hamas. My sole issue lies with the inflammatory rhetoric that equates every Palestinian civilian with Hamas. Now you're twisting my words to make it seem as if my critique was directed at Israel itself, which is a blatant misrepresentation of my position.

Except you turn around and blame Israel when something like this happens.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

They’ve extended help to Palestinians through initiatives like providing water and electricity to the Palestinian territories, advancing agricultural practices, creating joint industrial zones, and offering academic opportunities. Acknowledging these efforts doesn’t make them anti-Semites, nor does it diminish their struggles. Yet somehow, when I speak about these positive actions, things that build bridges between people, it's framed as making demands. I just can’t wrap my head around this argument.

All I did was ask what comes next after Hamas is removed and shared a few ideas. Now, suddenly, I’m accused of hating Jewish people and unknowingly falling for Hamas propaganda? This topic as gone mad.

The problem here is that you think it's over when Hamas is removed.

1) Hamas top leadership is elsewhere, Israel is only going to get the on-scene commanders.

2) The funding hasn't been touched. If not Hamas, somebody will rebuild. There's enough Islamist money out there, somebody will take it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

IDF is being cautious. They’re cautious to the extreme. Your demand that they are more cautious is absurd. How could Israel be more cautious than now?

Once again, I haven’t made the demands you claim I'm making. My only issue has been with people treating the casualties as if their deaths were deserved. It’s literally right there in the quote for you to see.

I never demanded a casualty-free war, a ludicrous expectation no sane person holds. My call for caution, echoed even by the IDF's own stated operational guidelines, was a direct rebuke to the barbaric rhetoric that paints every Palestinian as a legitimate target, conflating them with Hamas.

It’s as if you’re not even reading what I write and are just slapping 'antisemite' labels on everything I say.

How could the IDF possibly be more cautious? While also keeping their own troops alive?

My problem with your attitude is that it places absurd demands on IDF

Exactly. In all wars, civilian casualties are inevitable.

Especially if one side uses civilians as human shields. Most armies do not build army bases under hospitals. Or shoot rockets from refugee camps

BTW, for those who deny that hospitals are military bases:

Palestinian Authority: Hamas is using hospitals for military purposes | PMW Analysis

PA reveals Hamas summons to interrogation center at hospital

palwatch.org

Trivial internal matter, of no bearing--except that the guy is being ordered to report for interrogation to a hospital. That only makes sense if the hospital is also a military facility.

 

[laughing dog]

They’ve extended help to Palestinians through initiatives like providing water and electricity to the Palestinian territories, advancing agricultural practices, creating joint industrial zones, and offering academic opportunities. Acknowledging these efforts doesn’t make them anti-Semites, nor does it diminish their struggles. Yet somehow, when I speak about these positive actions, things that build bridges between people, it's framed as making demands. I just can’t wrap my head around this argument.

All I did was ask what comes next after Hamas is removed and shared a few ideas. Now, suddenly, I’m accused of hating Jewish people and unknowingly falling for Hamas propaganda? This topic as gone mad.

The problem here is that you think it's over when Hamas is removed.

1) Hamas top leadership is elsewhere, Israel is only going to get the on-scene commanders.

2) The funding hasn't been touched. If not Hamas, somebody will rebuild. There's enough Islamist money out there, somebody will take it.

So what is your solution - mass destruction and slaughter across the Islamist word?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

They’ve extended help to Palestinians through initiatives like providing water and electricity to the Palestinian territories, advancing agricultural practices, creating joint industrial zones, and offering academic opportunities. Acknowledging these efforts doesn’t make them anti-Semites, nor does it diminish their struggles. Yet somehow, when I speak about these positive actions, things that build bridges between people, it's framed as making demands. I just can’t wrap my head around this argument.

All I did was ask what comes next after Hamas is removed and shared a few ideas. Now, suddenly, I’m accused of hating Jewish people and unknowingly falling for Hamas propaganda? This topic as gone mad.

The problem here is that you think it's over when Hamas is removed.

1) Hamas top leadership is elsewhere, Israel is only going to get the on-scene commanders.

2) The funding hasn't been touched. If not Hamas, somebody will rebuild. There's enough Islamist money out there, somebody will take it.

You keep coming to the unspoken, 'we need to remove the Palestinians' part of your argument without actually saying it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Let me see if I understand the "point" you are relying on.
Gazan prisoners, probably already embittered and further embittered by their imprisonment, were released and participated in more Hamas attacks.
Is that more or less correct so far?

Lead, not merely participated in.

Those subsequent Hamas attacks used N=A+B anti-Israel terrorists, where B is the number recruited from the released prisoners, who'd have been unable to participate if still in prison. The attack would have failed, or at least not killed as many, with only A fighters instead of A+B. Am I still following along?

Not "recruited"--the fact that Hamas asked for them in exchange shows they were already terrorists. Hamas doesn't ask for common criminals.

I do want to thank Loren for not accusing any of us of being anti-Jewish in this post! I do NOT think having sympathy for dead or hungry Gazan children makes me "anti-Jewish" any more than condemning the Christian Donald Trump's policies makes me "anti-Christian."

The problem is not with sympathy for dead or hungry Gazan children. The problem is with the notion that the solution is for Israel to engage in appeasement.

I'm sure Loren doesn't think this either but I would appreicate it if he edits his future posts more carefully because some of them DO appear to make that connection.

Or am I wrong? Loren, do you treat anti-Zionist as synonymous with anti-Semitic or anti-Jewish?

A lot of things are read into my posts that are not there. But note that very often "anti-Israel" is used as a politically correct form of "anti-Jewish".

 

[Loren Pechtel]

How could the IDF possibly be more cautious? While also keeping their own troops alive?

Ukraine is doing quite well with small drone based explosives that don't destroy half a city block and its inhabitants.

I've already addressed this one: Drone-based explosives will simply cause the target to get near civilians. And note that when the target is in the open they use small-warhead missiles that are pretty much the equivalent of the drones you want except for being much faster.

But drones and other small warheads are useless when your target is inside a building.

My problem with your attitude is that it places absurd demands on IDF

I've just demonstrated the demands are not absurd. Your lack of vision of the possibilities of other interventions is not a good argument.

Except you haven't.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Because some of released prisoners participated?

Many of the released prisoners participated. Some of the released prisoners planned and led the invasion/massacre. First and foremost Yahya Sinwar, who was the head of Hamas in Gaza at the time.

Thank you, the fact that some of the prisoners helped plan and lead the massacre is good evidence. Participation is not because there are always people who follow.

He spelled it out in more detail but he's not saying anything I didn't.

And I note that you're not addressing the implications.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And the sociopathy goes on.

What is "sociopathic" about recognizing that
- civilians get harmed in every war
- Hamas desires more dead/wounded civilians for propaganda purposes?

Nothing. Defending needless civilian deaths is.

But you have not established the "needless" part. All you have provided is misdirection and handwaves.

 

[laughing dog]

And the sociopathy goes on.

What is "sociopathic" about recognizing that
- civilians get harmed in every war
- Hamas desires more dead/wounded civilians for propaganda purposes?

Nothing. Defending needless civilian deaths is.

But you have not established the "needless" part. All you have provided is misdirection and handwaves.

The irony of your straw man is truly mindblowing. And the sociopathc assumption that killing as many civilians that is happening is necessary is truly appalling.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

They knew there was HAMAS in that building in the gif that was posted. A smaller explosive like used by drones in Ukraine that destroys tanks could have been used to kill those HAMAS members without destroying the surrounding buildings and killing the occupants

The drones Ukraine is using only work when they hit exactly on target. Israel has no way of knowing where in the building they were, just that they had tracked them to the building. Thus Israel dropped something capable of destroying the building. From watching that video it appears that the Israeli strike probably wouldn't have killed anyone not in the building except for the secondary that directed blast energy outwards.

Hamas have absolutely no regard for any human lives. They don't respect the dignity of any human. They’re a barbaric organisation

It appears that the IDF have that same lack of respect.

If they have that lack of respect why are they by far the best at avoiding civilian casualties?

 

[laughing dog]

Because some of released prisoners participated?

Many of the released prisoners participated. Some of the released prisoners planned and led the invasion/massacre. First and foremost Yahya Sinwar, who was the head of Hamas in Gaza at the time.

Thank you, the fact that some of the prisoners helped plan and lead the massacre is good evidence. Participation is not because there are always people who follow.

He spelled it out in more detail but he's not saying anything I didn't.

And I note that you're not addressing the implications.

No need to address your implications because they do not rebut my observation that a hostage swap instead of an invasion would likely reduce the overall destruction and death.

Moveover, that avoids the discussion about holding prisoners for alleged crimes without trial for years. One might think that practice might harden the hearts and minds of those prisoners making them more violent terrorists upon release.

 

[ZiprHead]

I do not consider the deaths "deserved", but I recognize that they're going to happen and blaming Israel every time they happen isn't useful. You're playing right into Hamas' hands. Their track record is extremely good, I don't see how any of us are qualified to second guess their actions. But Hamas parades the dead kids before the cameras and the facts get ignored.

You keep repeating the above yet never provide any proof it it whatsoever.

 

[laughing dog]

Hamas have absolutely no regard for any human lives. They don't respect the dignity of any human. They’re a barbaric organisation

It appears that the IDF have that same lack of respect.

If they have that lack of respect why are they by far the best at avoiding civilian casualties?

You keep repeating that unsubstantiated claim. Why should anyone believe you without evidence?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I do want Hamas defeated militarily.

I do not want war crimes to be committed in pursuit of that goal, even if it means the war might go on longer when the IDF can't just shoot through babies being used as human shields by Hamas kidnappers.

In other words, you do not want Hamas defeated militarily. Because they'll just hide behind the babies and shoot the IDF.

I have not criticized everything Israel has done. I do not believe that all the IDF ever does is go around committing war crimes. But there have been credible reports of war crimes being committed by IDF forces, and such actions I do criticize, just as I criticize the war crimes and crimes against humanity committed by Hamas in October 2023 and in the months that followed.

Do you want war crimes to be committed in pursuit of the goal of Hamas being defeated militarily, or not? It is a simple question, requiring a simple answer.

Most of the claims of war crimes are either not war crimes or are not credible. There have been some apparently legitimate gripes about how prisoners are handled--and the IDF has gone after those who have been determined to actually have misbehaved. Note that general actions can't be war crimes. You can't count the dead and decree war crime.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Because some of released prisoners participated?

Many of the released prisoners participated. Some of the released prisoners planned and led the invasion/massacre. First and foremost Yahya Sinwar, who was the head of Hamas in Gaza at the time.

Thank you, the fact that some of the prisoners helped plan and lead the massacre is good evidence. Participation is not because there are always people who follow.

He spelled it out in more detail but he's not saying anything I didn't.

And I note that you're not addressing the implications.

No need to address your implications because they do not rebut my observation that a hostage swap instead of an invasion would likely reduce the overall destruction and death.

I couldn't possibly disagree with this idea more.

Obviously the death toll and manner of the killings in the massacre was awful. In my opinion, what was even worse was the hostage taking, as it helped provide cover to the top brass of Hamas for the atrocities unleashed. It isn't remotely conceivable in my opinion to trade off prisoners for hostages... who were taken as part of an even larger bloody atrocity. The math simply doesn't hold. To me, the hostages were taken to keep the top brass from Hamas from being summarily targeted by the Mossad. Getting prisoners back was just bonus for Hamas (and a red herring). The taking of hostages, in my mind, was the end of Hamas as any viable existence within or near Israel. They could not be trusted much to begin with, but this was crossing a line.

Moveover, that avoids the discussion about holding prisoners for alleged crimes without trial for years. One might think that practice might harden the hearts and minds of those prisoners making them more violent terrorists upon release.

This is certainly another problem. Which adds to the very large pile of *things that are wrong with Israel/Palestinians coexistence".

 

[Loren Pechtel]

We’re all on the same page here. The challenge with this discussion is that, to some members, anything perceived as unfavorable to Israel is labeled as antisemitic or Hamas propaganda. Even questions about Israel’s future actions are considered overly critical, despite Israel itself taking the very steps being suggested and its leadership making similar statements. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Your page is too general.

Yes, we all want Hamas gone. The problem comes down to the details. We fall into basically two camps: Those who accept that all answers are horrible and that we should be picking the least horrible and those who hold to some sort of fantasy solution that doesn't involve being horrible.