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The Case for Christianity

Brunswick

Most on forum do not care what sex you are or your sexual orientation.

If you go by the Holy Babel and history Chrtianity has been patriarchal and misogynist. And homophobic.

In the NT it is said women should dress plainly, walk behind the men, and not instruct men in publi or have authority over men

Paul said women should not speak during a service.

Of course modern liberal Christina interpret Jesus diligently, yet he hung around with 12 men.

Christianity in Africa can be extreme on these issues. Death penalty for homosexuality in some places.

I asked am immigrant Sikh from In India what his tradition said about women. He smiled and said they have a saying 'women give birth to princes' so how could here be something wrong with women?

Biblically women are the seducers and downfall of men. Aw come on Adam, just one little bite of the apple, what's the harm in that sweetie?

All the resistance women have faced getting an education and having a professional life has roots in western Chrtianity.
 
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Confession​

Alright. Time to 'fess up. I'm an anthropologist and female. That might explain the tone of my posts, lol. I'm "scientific" enough to have developed some computer programs, including my own little AI app which helps me manage my computer related work. With so much material to keep on top of, AI can be a lot of help. And I can tweak it to suit my needs. I've also lectured at some of the top universities in the world, inc. Harvard, Cambridge and NUS (that's the National University of Singapore). But that's beside the point, no? Do my intellectual creds matter? Surely you can judge an argument by its merits. And I make it a point to reduce things to its simplest form. Part of my scientific or academic training. Those two terms are to me, one and the same, meaning rigorous and critical thinking. The rest is just your field of study.

I do anthropology because I love studying into what makes us tick. And foreign societies and communities allow me to look at people and their behaviour perhaps more unbiasedly.

Which brings me to this thread. Why am I doing it? Like I said, I became a Christian in my 50s. And it was quite a revelation which I wanted to share with people who are able to give me critical feedback. It's not going as well as I had hoped, lol.

Anyway, I can't help but bring my anthropological mind into what I do. So, here are some of my findings, surprising in some instances but interesting, every one of them.

1.People like magic
Interestingly, both believers and non-believers are more interested in the magical aspects of Christianity than in its moral and personal framework. Why does it matter? Do you need God to appear before you and convince you personally?

2. The "Arrogance" of the Righteous
Many people who are doing well in their lives think it's them. They don't really appreciate how much is happenstance. Sadly, many people who are not doing well also blame themselves. It's not all their fault. We can make a difference to our own lives but our ability to do so is much less than we think.

3. Life without God
This is a very modern, Westernised outlook. Every culture that I know of have a sense of the metaphysical or the supernatural (BTW, these two words have different connotations), except the modern Western society. To the detriment of the young, I believe. Young people from Westernised developed countries are the most lost and adrift young people I've met. Almost any religion is better than no religion.

4. Love as Moral Foundation
Many Westerners think it's obvious. But it's not. Until Jesus made it central. Even then, we still don't fully realise the extent of his assertion. Love, for Jesus, is complete and sacrificial. It's where the forgiveness of sins come from. It's about lost sheep. Loving and forgiving your enemies. It's not just about being a good person.

Plus, Jesus wasn't just saying, be a good person. He was saying look after the disenfranchised. Our stance against slavery, racism, etc. came from that. Note that other non-Christian countries still maintain their caste systems and other inhuman religious and cultural practices. In the name of religion, unsurprisingly.

Philip Yancey wrote a good book about it, What's So Amazing About Grace?, and pointed out that this, forgiving past quarrels, is the only solution to war between countries (putting aside for the moment, the economic motivation of war).

5.God vs Religion
We don’t seem to notice this but the Judaic/Christian/Muslim God does not belong to any religion and indeed, hates religion with a passion. Jesus spoke most and most harshly against the lawgivers and religious leaders of his own "religion".

6. What does it matter?
In case you haven't noticed, we're in crisis, not just in terms of environmental crisis, but also in many aspects of our lives, and yet we're also closest to global peace than we've ever been. We need a way forward. We need an alternative to materialism.

7. Is Christianity the solution?
Not in its current form and maybe not even as a religion but as a universal basis for humanity and human rights. But as a personal religion, it also works for me. It's a lot less superstitious and more scientific than you think it is. There's no need to convert anyone to Christianity. We just need to accept its ideals. Which are self-evident enough for most people. We don't even have to succeed doing so. Love one another, that's good enough.

The rest is in the far more able hands of God, lol.
*Sorry, I couldn't resist this last sentence.

I’m sorry, but this is getting nonsensical. As an anthropologist you must know perfectly well that the Abrahamic religions have invoked the name of God for the purposes of oppression, particularly of women, since the get-go, and it remains heavily entrenched in places like Afghanistan, under the fundy Islamic Taliban. The Judaic/Christian/Muslim god hates religion with a passion? Tell that to their followers.

Christianity is not scientific in any way. It offers magical, superstitious nonsense in place of real love and reasoning.

Today’s western youth are adrift? The older generation has been complaining about young people since time immemorial. They complained about the hippies, the beats, the flappers. Socrates complained about Athenian youth, though he was accused of corrupting them. If you are young and adrift, good! You SHOULD be, to overcome the conditioning process that Krishnamurti rightly deprecates.

Christianity’s stance against slavery and racism? I find it nowhere in the bible. In the 19th century, since the vast majority in America were Christians, the bible was used both in opposition to slavery (among abolitionists in the North, a minority) and in defense of slavery and racism by the fire-and-brimstone preachers of the south. The bible has been invoked in defense of slavery, racism, war and conquest. The Spanish destroyed Mayan culture, killed and enslaved people, and razed temples while waving the cross along with their guns.

Get real. I honestly have a hard time understanding how an anthropologist cannot know these things, or, if you do, brush them off.
 
the Judaic/Christian/Muslim God does not belong to any religion and indeed, hates religion with a passion

Is this an effort to “humanize” omnipotence and omniscience, leaving God with only omnipresence to differentiate himself from schmucks like me? B’cuz that description leaves little to choose from between me and Him. :)
 
Most on forum do not care what sex you are or your sexual orientation.
I only mention that I'm female to perhaps explain my gentler tone. Nothing more, nothing less.
If you go by the Holy Babel and history Chrtianity has been patriarchal and misogynist. And homophobic.
Quite true. That's why I said God hated religion. Jesus definitely did.
In the NT it is said women should dress plainly, walk behind the men, and not instruct men in publi or have authority over men
God didn't say that. The Bible did. It's one of the reasons why God hates religion and Jesus condemned Judaism.
Paul said women should not speak during a service.
Paul. Not Jesus
Of course modern liberal Christina interpret Jesus diligently, yet he hung around with 12 men.
And several women. Many of them named Mary, oddly enough.
Christianity in Africa can be extreme on these issues. Death penalty for homosexuality in some places.
Yes. Like I said, God hates religion.
I asked am immigrant Sikh from In India what his tradition said about women. He smiled and said they have a saying 'women give birth to princes' so how could here be something wrong with women?
Nothing.
Biblically women are the seducers and downfall of men. Aw come on Adam, just one little bite of the apple, what's the harm in that sweetie?
LOL. No comment.
All the resistance women have faced getting an education and having a professional life has roots in western Chrtianity.
Happy for you to believe what you like.
 
the Judaic/Christian/Muslim God does not belong to any religion and indeed, hates religion with a passion

Is this an effort to “humanize” omnipotence and omniscience, leaving God with only omnipresence to differentiate himself from schmucks like me? B’cuz that description leaves little to choose from between me and Him. :)
LOL. Choose what you like, believe what you like.
 

Confession​

Alright. Time to 'fess up. I'm an anthropologist and female. That might explain the tone of my posts, lol. I'm "scientific" enough to have developed some computer programs, including my own little AI app which helps me manage my computer related work. With so much material to keep on top of, AI can be a lot of help. And I can tweak it to suit my needs. I've also lectured at some of the top universities in the world, inc. Harvard, Cambridge and NUS (that's the National University of Singapore). But that's beside the point, no? Do my intellectual creds matter? Surely you can judge an argument by its merits. And I make it a point to reduce things to its simplest form. Part of my scientific or academic training. Those two terms are to me, one and the same, meaning rigorous and critical thinking. The rest is just your field of study.

I do anthropology because I love studying into what makes us tick. And foreign societies and communities allow me to look at people and their behaviour perhaps more unbiasedly.

Which brings me to this thread. Why am I doing it? Like I said, I became a Christian in my 50s. And it was quite a revelation which I wanted to share with people who are able to give me critical feedback. It's not going as well as I had hoped, lol.

Anyway, I can't help but bring my anthropological mind into what I do. So, here are some of my findings, surprising in some instances but interesting, every one of them.

1.People like magic
Interestingly, both believers and non-believers are more interested in the magical aspects of Christianity than in its moral and personal framework. Why does it matter? Do you need God to appear before you and convince you personally?

2. The "Arrogance" of the Righteous
Many people who are doing well in their lives think it's them. They don't really appreciate how much is happenstance. Sadly, many people who are not doing well also blame themselves. It's not all their fault. We can make a difference to our own lives but our ability to do so is much less than we think.

3. Life without God
This is a very modern, Westernised outlook. Every culture that I know of have a sense of the metaphysical or the supernatural (BTW, these two words have different connotations), except the modern Western society. To the detriment of the young, I believe. Young people from Westernised developed countries are the most lost and adrift young people I've met. Almost any religion is better than no religion.

4. Love as Moral Foundation
Many Westerners think it's obvious. But it's not. Until Jesus made it central. Even then, we still don't fully realise the extent of his assertion. Love, for Jesus, is complete and sacrificial. It's where the forgiveness of sins come from. It's about lost sheep. Loving and forgiving your enemies. It's not just about being a good person.

Plus, Jesus wasn't just saying, be a good person. He was saying look after the disenfranchised. Our stance against slavery, racism, etc. came from that. Note that other non-Christian countries still maintain their caste systems and other inhuman religious and cultural practices. In the name of religion, unsurprisingly.

Philip Yancey wrote a good book about it, What's So Amazing About Grace?, and pointed out that this, forgiving past quarrels, is the only solution to war between countries (putting aside for the moment, the economic motivation of war).

5.God vs Religion
We don’t seem to notice this but the Judaic/Christian/Muslim God does not belong to any religion and indeed, hates religion with a passion. Jesus spoke most and most harshly against the lawgivers and religious leaders of his own "religion".

6. What does it matter?
In case you haven't noticed, we're in crisis, not just in terms of environmental crisis, but also in many aspects of our lives, and yet we're also closest to global peace than we've ever been. We need a way forward. We need an alternative to materialism.

7. Is Christianity the solution?
Not in its current form and maybe not even as a religion but as a universal basis for humanity and human rights. But as a personal religion, it also works for me. It's a lot less superstitious and more scientific than you think it is. There's no need to convert anyone to Christianity. We just need to accept its ideals. Which are self-evident enough for most people. We don't even have to succeed doing so. Love one another, that's good enough.

The rest is in the far more able hands of God, lol.
*Sorry, I couldn't resist this last sentence.

I’m sorry, but this is getting nonsensical. As an anthropologist you must know perfectly well that the Abrahamic religions have invoked the name of God for the purposes of oppression, particularly of women, since the get-go, and it remains heavily entrenched in places like Afghanistan, under the fundy Islamic Taliban. The Judaic/Christian/Muslim god hates religion with a passion? Tell that to their followers.

Christianity is not scientific in any way. It offers magical, superstitious nonsense in place of real love and reasoning.

Today’s western youth are adrift? The older generation has been complaining about young people since time immemorial. They complained about the hippies, the beats, the flappers. Socrates complained about Athenian youth, though he was accused of corrupting them. If you are young and adrift, good! You SHOULD be, to overcome the conditioning process that Krishnamurti rightly deprecates.

Christianity’s stance against slavery and racism? I find it nowhere in the bible. In the 19th century, since the vast majority in America were Christians, the bible was used both in opposition to slavery (among abolitionists in the North, a minority) and in defense of slavery and racism by the fire-and-brimstone preachers of the south. The bible has been invoked in defense of slavery, racism, war and conquest. The Spanish destroyed Mayan culture, killed and enslaved people, and razed temples while waving the cross along with their guns.

Get real. I honestly have a hard time understanding how an anthropologist cannot know these things, or, if you do, brush them off.
I did differentiate God from the religions that are attributed to Him. Indeed, this is one of my greatest revelations about the Bible. But, no matter, believe what you like.

And, of course, you know more about anthropology and everything else than I do. I have no problem with that.
 
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To be fair to ancients, Athens, Socrates was a tutor to Alciabiades, who rivals Trump in demagoguery, and brought multiple disasters to Athens, then fled to Athen's enemy Sparta.
 

Confession​

Alright. Time to 'fess up. I'm an anthropologist and female. That might explain the tone of my posts, lol. I'm "scientific" enough to have developed some computer programs, including my own little AI app which helps me manage my computer related work. With so much material to keep on top of, AI can be a lot of help. And I can tweak it to suit my needs. I've also lectured at some of the top universities in the world, inc. Harvard, Cambridge and NUS (that's the National University of Singapore). But that's beside the point, no? Do my intellectual creds matter? Surely you can judge an argument by its merits. And I make it a point to reduce things to its simplest form. Part of my scientific or academic training. Those two terms are to me, one and the same, meaning rigorous and critical thinking. The rest is just your field of study.

I do anthropology because I love studying into what makes us tick. And foreign societies and communities allow me to look at people and their behaviour perhaps more unbiasedly.

Which brings me to this thread. Why am I doing it? Like I said, I became a Christian in my 50s. And it was quite a revelation which I wanted to share with people who are able to give me critical feedback. It's not going as well as I had hoped, lol.

Anyway, I can't help but bring my anthropological mind into what I do. So, here are some of my findings, surprising in some instances but interesting, every one of them.

1.People like magic
Interestingly, both believers and non-believers are more interested in the magical aspects of Christianity than in its moral and personal framework. Why does it matter? Do you need God to appear before you and convince you personally?

2. The "Arrogance" of the Righteous
Many people who are doing well in their lives think it's them. They don't really appreciate how much is happenstance. Sadly, many people who are not doing well also blame themselves. It's not all their fault. We can make a difference to our own lives but our ability to do so is much less than we think.

3. Life without God
This is a very modern, Westernised outlook. Every culture that I know of have a sense of the metaphysical or the supernatural (BTW, these two words have different connotations), except the modern Western society. To the detriment of the young, I believe. Young people from Westernised developed countries are the most lost and adrift young people I've met. Almost any religion is better than no religion.

4. Love as Moral Foundation
Many Westerners think it's obvious. But it's not. Until Jesus made it central. Even then, we still don't fully realise the extent of his assertion. Love, for Jesus, is complete and sacrificial. It's where the forgiveness of sins come from. It's about lost sheep. Loving and forgiving your enemies. It's not just about being a good person.

Plus, Jesus wasn't just saying, be a good person. He was saying look after the disenfranchised. Our stance against slavery, racism, etc. came from that. Note that other non-Christian countries still maintain their caste systems and other inhuman religious and cultural practices. In the name of religion, unsurprisingly.

Philip Yancey wrote a good book about it, What's So Amazing About Grace?, and pointed out that this, forgiving past quarrels, is the only solution to war between countries (putting aside for the moment, the economic motivation of war).

5.God vs Religion
We don’t seem to notice this but the Judaic/Christian/Muslim God does not belong to any religion and indeed, hates religion with a passion. Jesus spoke most and most harshly against the lawgivers and religious leaders of his own "religion".

6. What does it matter?
In case you haven't noticed, we're in crisis, not just in terms of environmental crisis, but also in many aspects of our lives, and yet we're also closest to global peace than we've ever been. We need a way forward. We need an alternative to materialism.

7. Is Christianity the solution?
Not in its current form and maybe not even as a religion but as a universal basis for humanity and human rights. But as a personal religion, it also works for me. It's a lot less superstitious and more scientific than you think it is. There's no need to convert anyone to Christianity. We just need to accept its ideals. Which are self-evident enough for most people. We don't even have to succeed doing so. Love one another, that's good enough.

The rest is in the far more able hands of God, lol.
*Sorry, I couldn't resist this last sentence.

I’m sorry, but this is getting nonsensical. As an anthropologist you must know perfectly well that the Abrahamic religions have invoked the name of God for the purposes of oppression, particularly of women, since the get-go, and it remains heavily entrenched in places like Afghanistan, under the fundy Islamic Taliban. The Judaic/Christian/Muslim god hates religion with a passion? Tell that to their followers.

Christianity is not scientific in any way. It offers magical, superstitious nonsense in place of real love and reasoning.

Today’s western youth are adrift? The older generation has been complaining about young people since time immemorial. They complained about the hippies, the beats, the flappers. Socrates complained about Athenian youth, though he was accused of corrupting them. If you are young and adrift, good! You SHOULD be, to overcome the conditioning process that Krishnamurti rightly deprecates.

Christianity’s stance against slavery and racism? I find it nowhere in the bible. In the 19th century, since the vast majority in America were Christians, the bible was used both in opposition to slavery (among abolitionists in the North, a minority) and in defense of slavery and racism by the fire-and-brimstone preachers of the south. The bible has been invoked in defense of slavery, racism, war and conquest. The Spanish destroyed Mayan culture, killed and enslaved people, and razed temples while waving the cross along with their guns.

Get real. I honestly have a hard time understanding how an anthropologist cannot know these things, or, if you do, brush them off.
I did differentiate God from the religions that are attributed to Him. Indeed, this is one of my greatest revelations about the Bible. But, no matter, believe what you like.

And, of course, you know more about anthropology and everything else than I do. I have no problem with that.
That's brushing them off, as was charged. If you want credibilty here, you must deal with such allegations better than that.
 

Confession​

Alright. Time to 'fess up. I'm an anthropologist and female. That might explain the tone of my posts, lol. I'm "scientific" enough to have developed some computer programs, including my own little AI app which helps me manage my computer related work. With so much material to keep on top of, AI can be a lot of help. And I can tweak it to suit my needs. I've also lectured at some of the top universities in the world, inc. Harvard, Cambridge and NUS (that's the National University of Singapore). But that's beside the point, no? Do my intellectual creds matter? Surely you can judge an argument by its merits. And I make it a point to reduce things to its simplest form. Part of my scientific or academic training. Those two terms are to me, one and the same, meaning rigorous and critical thinking. The rest is just your field of study.

I do anthropology because I love studying into what makes us tick. And foreign societies and communities allow me to look at people and their behaviour perhaps more unbiasedly.

Which brings me to this thread. Why am I doing it? Like I said, I became a Christian in my 50s. And it was quite a revelation which I wanted to share with people who are able to give me critical feedback. It's not going as well as I had hoped, lol.

Anyway, I can't help but bring my anthropological mind into what I do. So, here are some of my findings, surprising in some instances but interesting, every one of them.

1.People like magic
Interestingly, both believers and non-believers are more interested in the magical aspects of Christianity than in its moral and personal framework. Why does it matter? Do you need God to appear before you and convince you personally?

2. The "Arrogance" of the Righteous
Many people who are doing well in their lives think it's them. They don't really appreciate how much is happenstance. Sadly, many people who are not doing well also blame themselves. It's not all their fault. We can make a difference to our own lives but our ability to do so is much less than we think.

3. Life without God
This is a very modern, Westernised outlook. Every culture that I know of have a sense of the metaphysical or the supernatural (BTW, these two words have different connotations), except the modern Western society. To the detriment of the young, I believe. Young people from Westernised developed countries are the most lost and adrift young people I've met. Almost any religion is better than no religion.

4. Love as Moral Foundation
Many Westerners think it's obvious. But it's not. Until Jesus made it central. Even then, we still don't fully realise the extent of his assertion. Love, for Jesus, is complete and sacrificial. It's where the forgiveness of sins come from. It's about lost sheep. Loving and forgiving your enemies. It's not just about being a good person.

Plus, Jesus wasn't just saying, be a good person. He was saying look after the disenfranchised. Our stance against slavery, racism, etc. came from that. Note that other non-Christian countries still maintain their caste systems and other inhuman religious and cultural practices. In the name of religion, unsurprisingly.

Philip Yancey wrote a good book about it, What's So Amazing About Grace?, and pointed out that this, forgiving past quarrels, is the only solution to war between countries (putting aside for the moment, the economic motivation of war).

5.God vs Religion
We don’t seem to notice this but the Judaic/Christian/Muslim God does not belong to any religion and indeed, hates religion with a passion. Jesus spoke most and most harshly against the lawgivers and religious leaders of his own "religion".

6. What does it matter?
In case you haven't noticed, we're in crisis, not just in terms of environmental crisis, but also in many aspects of our lives, and yet we're also closest to global peace than we've ever been. We need a way forward. We need an alternative to materialism.

7. Is Christianity the solution?
Not in its current form and maybe not even as a religion but as a universal basis for humanity and human rights. But as a personal religion, it also works for me. It's a lot less superstitious and more scientific than you think it is. There's no need to convert anyone to Christianity. We just need to accept its ideals. Which are self-evident enough for most people. We don't even have to succeed doing so. Love one another, that's good enough.

The rest is in the far more able hands of God, lol.
*Sorry, I couldn't resist this last sentence.

I’m sorry, but this is getting nonsensical. As an anthropologist you must know perfectly well that the Abrahamic religions have invoked the name of God for the purposes of oppression, particularly of women, since the get-go, and it remains heavily entrenched in places like Afghanistan, under the fundy Islamic Taliban. The Judaic/Christian/Muslim god hates religion with a passion? Tell that to their followers.

Christianity is not scientific in any way. It offers magical, superstitious nonsense in place of real love and reasoning.

Today’s western youth are adrift? The older generation has been complaining about young people since time immemorial. They complained about the hippies, the beats, the flappers. Socrates complained about Athenian youth, though he was accused of corrupting them. If you are young and adrift, good! You SHOULD be, to overcome the conditioning process that Krishnamurti rightly deprecates.

Christianity’s stance against slavery and racism? I find it nowhere in the bible. In the 19th century, since the vast majority in America were Christians, the bible was used both in opposition to slavery (among abolitionists in the North, a minority) and in defense of slavery and racism by the fire-and-brimstone preachers of the south. The bible has been invoked in defense of slavery, racism, war and conquest. The Spanish destroyed Mayan culture, killed and enslaved people, and razed temples while waving the cross along with their guns.

Get real. I honestly have a hard time understanding how an anthropologist cannot know these things, or, if you do, brush them off.
I did differentiate God from the religions that are attributed to Him. Indeed, this is one of my greatest revelations about the Bible. But, no matter, believe what you like.

And, of course, you know more about anthropology and everything else than I do. I have no problem with that.

You differentiate God from the religions that are attributed to them. How does one do that?

Christianity supports slavery. It supports abolition. Both are Christian positions.

Christianity supports oppressing women. Christianity supports liberating women. Both are Christian positions.

And on and on. Christianity is EVERYTHING that Christianity has said and done, including the internal contradictions.

You say God “hates religions.” How do you know? You take some words attributed to Jesus decades after his death and declare that to the insights of the “true” god. How do you know?

If you are trying to make a case for the ethical Christianity that is attributed to Jesus’s (supposed) teachings, then that’s fine. If you are are trying to make the case for a literal resurrection and god you have not made that case — not even begun to make it.

So what are we talking about?

In these posts, there’s no there there, to paraphrase Stein talking about Oakland.
 
@Brunswick1954 the thing is this: You say on the one hand that without God, attempts at love, mercy, forgiveness, etc., “fall apart.” You have not demonstrated this to be the case. If this were ture, we should typically find nonbelievers to be nihilistic scoundrels or some such, and Christians all kind, loving, etc. We do not find this. We find good and bad people in both camps.

Then on the other hand you say that the question of a literal resurrection is “trivial.” So what is your point? The ancient Greeks spoke of the noble lie — that it was noble, for instance, to deify Dionysios, or create other soothing fairy tales, because it would make people more virtuous. Is that what you are arguing for, with respect to the Christian idea of god?

And yet even if it is, the presence of many good, kind, loving, forgiving people without any idea of god at all invalidates the claim.
 
I appoligize for the folowing wall of text. I hate that when others do it.

1.People like magic
"both believers and non-believers are more interested in the magical aspects of Christianity than in its moral and personal framework."

I like magic. I like the puzzle of it, and figuring-out what's going on. I'm a big fan of Penn & Teller and science. They are more honest about the magic.
I strongly dislike xanity for its protection racket approach and its one-size-fits-all morals and framework.
"Do you need God to appear before you and convince you personally?"
ABSOLUTLY. But the christian cult would never allow it. it would break their precieved monopoly.

2. The "Arrogance" of the Righteous
"Many people who are doing well in their lives think it's them. They don't really appreciate how much is happenstance.
Sadly, many people who are not doing well also blame themselves. It's not all their fault.
We can make a difference to our own lives but our ability to do so is much less than we think."

And the scammers and recruiters among the flock exaggerate those feelings as much as possable.

3. Life without God
And there it is - The Arrogance Of The Rightteous.
"Every culture that I know of have a sense of the metaphysical or the supernatural" Right, fear of the unknown.
"Young people from Westernised developed countries are the most lost and adrift young people I've met."
The stark realization that they are not the center of everything. Reality, the universe, was not built to accomidate us.
"Almost any religion is better than no religion." Any story to make us feel beter?

4. Love as Moral Foundation
"Until Jesus made it central."
Not love. loyalty or obediance are central.
"Love, for Jesus, is complete and sacrificial." OR ELSE go to hell. No, that is not love. It is extortion.
"It's where the forgiveness of sins come from." The cult defines what 'sin' is. Disbelief is the only sin. Everything else is forgiven. That does not promote 'moral' behavior.
"It's about lost sheep."
We are not fuckin sheep. That metaphore sux. Shepards do not love sheep. Sheep are property, an investment. They fleece them, fuck them, or eat them.
If your god or cult thinks you are a sheep ... RUN.
"Jesus wasn't just saying, be a good person. He was saying look after the disenfranchised."
Your cult only plays lip-service to that. That is not what religions/cults are formed for. Chairity is an afterthought.
"Our stance against slavery, racism, etc. came from that." As if that was the only sourse. It wasn't.
"Note that other non-Christian countries still maintain their caste systems and other inhuman religious and cultural practices.
In the name of religion, unsurprisingly."

Sure, but note there are still other non-Christian countries that look after the disenfranchised better than we do.

5.God vs Religion
"We don’t seem to notice this but the Judaic/Christian/Muslim God does not belong to any religion and indeed, hates religion with a passion.
Jesus spoke most and most harshly against the lawgivers and religious leaders of his own "religion".

So we atheists are more moral than christians. /s

6. What does it matter?
"we're in crisis, not just in terms of environmental crisis, but also in many aspects of our lives"
"We need an alternative to materialism."

Don't be stupid. Most of our problems, like the enviroment, are materal. Religious/supernatural belief is not capabile of fixing them.
Head-in-the-sand sheeple Are as much of the problem as anyone. And religion makes them docile. Dependant on authority. Incapable of thinking or working on their own problems.
Maybe worship of Gia (mother Earth) would help.
"we're also closest to global peace than we've ever been."
You are not paying attention. A war between Is-lame and everybody else is comming.

7. Is Christianity the solution?
"Not in its current form and maybe not even as a religion but as a universal basis for humanity and human rights."

Then that ain't christianity, or even your god, is it.
Just throw it out and start from scratch.
 
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I’m sorry, but this is getting nonsensical. As an anthropologist you must know perfectly well that the Abrahamic religions have invoked the name of God for the purposes of oppression, particularly of women,
Or maybe the experiment has just now started?
Alright. Time to 'fess up. I'm an anthropologist and female. That might explain the tone of my posts, lol. I'm "scientific" enough to have developed some computer programs, including my own little AI app which helps me manage my computer related work.
Maybe Brunswick1954 is an AI program designed to sort people out? Could be for any raft of interrelated purposes.
Maybe not a scientific experiment so much as an Internet fishing expedition for monetizable data?
Who knows?
Tom
 
It's difficult to explain because God is impossible to define, so it's entirely possible you believe what I believe as well but we're expressing it in a different way.
This is nonsense. If God is impossible to define, then how can you be a Christian? At best you would be a deist or something; All of the popular religions, and sects within those religions, (including Christianity, in spades) define their God (or Gods) quite clearly, as a necessary part of their differentiation from each other.

God being impossible to define is a characteristic we would not expect only of a non-fictional entity. Even most fictional characters are defined - that's how we know at a glance whether a superhero is Batman or Superman.

It seems that you are seeking to define God as "impossible to define", presumably in an effort to make Him immune from examination. That might even seem convincing, to you. It sounds like the lamest dodge in the history of logical reasoning to me.

Do you think that it's entirely possible that you believe what Joe Stalin believed when he ordered the killing of millions, but you're expressing it in a different way?

This notion is either blatantly nonsensical; Or so broad as to be utterly valueless in any logical reasoning that might follow from it.
 

Confession​

Alright. Time to 'fess up. I'm an anthropologist and female. That might explain the tone of my posts, lol. I'm "scientific" enough to have developed some computer programs, including my own little AI app which helps me manage my computer related work. With so much material to keep on top of, AI can be a lot of help. And I can tweak it to suit my needs. I've also lectured at some of the top universities in the world, inc. Harvard, Cambridge and NUS (that's the National University of Singapore). But that's beside the point, no? Do my intellectual creds matter? Surely you can judge an argument by its merits. And I make it a point to reduce things to its simplest form. Part of my scientific or academic training. Those two terms are to me, one and the same, meaning rigorous and critical thinking. The rest is just your field of study.

I do anthropology because I love studying into what makes us tick. And foreign societies and communities allow me to look at people and their behaviour perhaps more unbiasedly.

Which brings me to this thread. Why am I doing it? Like I said, I became a Christian in my 50s. And it was quite a revelation which I wanted to share with people who are able to give me critical feedback. It's not going as well as I had hoped, lol.

Anyway, I can't help but bring my anthropological mind into what I do. So, here are some of my findings, surprising in some instances but interesting, every one of them.

1.People like magic
Interestingly, both believers and non-believers are more interested in the magical aspects of Christianity than in its moral and personal framework. Why does it matter? Do you need God to appear before you and convince you personally?

2. The "Arrogance" of the Righteous
Many people who are doing well in their lives think it's them. They don't really appreciate how much is happenstance. Sadly, many people who are not doing well also blame themselves. It's not all their fault. We can make a difference to our own lives but our ability to do so is much less than we think.

3. Life without God
This is a very modern, Westernised outlook. Every culture that I know of have a sense of the metaphysical or the supernatural (BTW, these two words have different connotations), except the modern Western society. To the detriment of the young, I believe. Young people from Westernised developed countries are the most lost and adrift young people I've met. Almost any religion is better than no religion.

4. Love as Moral Foundation
Many Westerners think it's obvious. But it's not. Until Jesus made it central. Even then, we still don't fully realise the extent of his assertion. Love, for Jesus, is complete and sacrificial. It's where the forgiveness of sins come from. It's about lost sheep. Loving and forgiving your enemies. It's not just about being a good person.

Plus, Jesus wasn't just saying, be a good person. He was saying look after the disenfranchised. Our stance against slavery, racism, etc. came from that. Note that other non-Christian countries still maintain their caste systems and other inhuman religious and cultural practices. In the name of religion, unsurprisingly.

Philip Yancey wrote a good book about it, What's So Amazing About Grace?, and pointed out that this, forgiving past quarrels, is the only solution to war between countries (putting aside for the moment, the economic motivation of war).

5.God vs Religion
We don’t seem to notice this but the Judaic/Christian/Muslim God does not belong to any religion and indeed, hates religion with a passion. Jesus spoke most and most harshly against the lawgivers and religious leaders of his own "religion".

6. What does it matter?
In case you haven't noticed, we're in crisis, not just in terms of environmental crisis, but also in many aspects of our lives, and yet we're also closest to global peace than we've ever been. We need a way forward. We need an alternative to materialism.

7. Is Christianity the solution?
Not in its current form and maybe not even as a religion but as a universal basis for humanity and human rights. But as a personal religion, it also works for me. It's a lot less superstitious and more scientific than you think it is. There's no need to convert anyone to Christianity. We just need to accept its ideals. Which are self-evident enough for most people. We don't even have to succeed doing so. Love one another, that's good enough.

The rest is in the far more able hands of God, lol.
*Sorry, I couldn't resist this last sentence.
That's a lot of evidence that religion works as a social adhesive, holding societies together and giving them purpose. Some of it I think you take too far; You have a lot more work to do to convince me that we need a God as an alternative to materialism, and even more to convince me that the Christian God is that God.

But the really glaring problem here, to me, is that no amount of demonstration that a religion is beneficial to human societies gets us one iota closer to the conclusion that the claimed existence of Gods (much less of any specific God) is true.
 
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the Judaic/Christian/Muslim God does not belong to any religion and indeed, hates religion with a passion

Is this an effort to “humanize” omnipotence and omniscience, leaving God with only omnipresence to differentiate himself from schmucks like me? B’cuz that description leaves little to choose from between me and Him. :)
LOL. Choose what you like, believe what you like.

Belief is a process of conviction. It may include social conditioning, the ideas and beliefs you were exposed to during childhood, Hinduism in India, Christianity in the West, etc...
 
That's brushing them off, as was charged. If you want credibilty here, you must deal with such allegations better than that.
While I agree, this is Brunswick’s thread, her field of battle if there is to be one.
Ergo, her rules of engagement should apply.
If one of those rules is “no asking me shit I don’t know about”, it only means she can expect very little engagement. :)
 

Confession​

Alright. Time to 'fess up. I'm an anthropologist and female. That might explain the tone of my posts, lol. I'm "scientific" enough to have developed some computer programs, including my own little AI app which helps me manage my computer related work. With so much material to keep on top of, AI can be a lot of help. And I can tweak it to suit my needs. I've also lectured at some of the top universities in the world, inc. Harvard, Cambridge and NUS (that's the National University of Singapore). But that's beside the point, no? Do my intellectual creds matter? Surely you can judge an argument by its merits. And I make it a point to reduce things to its simplest form. Part of my scientific or academic training. Those two terms are to me, one and the same, meaning rigorous and critical thinking. The rest is just your field of study.

I do anthropology because I love studying into what makes us tick. And foreign societies and communities allow me to look at people and their behaviour perhaps more unbiasedly.

Which brings me to this thread. Why am I doing it? Like I said, I became a Christian in my 50s. And it was quite a revelation which I wanted to share with people who are able to give me critical feedback. It's not going as well as I had hoped, lol.

Anyway, I can't help but bring my anthropological mind into what I do. So, here are some of my findings, surprising in some instances but interesting, every one of them.

1.People like magic
Interestingly, both believers and non-believers are more interested in the magical aspects of Christianity than in its moral and personal framework. Why does it matter? Do you need God to appear before you and convince you personally?

2. The "Arrogance" of the Righteous
Many people who are doing well in their lives think it's them. They don't really appreciate how much is happenstance. Sadly, many people who are not doing well also blame themselves. It's not all their fault. We can make a difference to our own lives but our ability to do so is much less than we think.

3. Life without God
This is a very modern, Westernised outlook. Every culture that I know of have a sense of the metaphysical or the supernatural (BTW, these two words have different connotations), except the modern Western society. To the detriment of the young, I believe. Young people from Westernised developed countries are the most lost and adrift young people I've met. Almost any religion is better than no religion.

4. Love as Moral Foundation
Many Westerners think it's obvious. But it's not. Until Jesus made it central. Even then, we still don't fully realise the extent of his assertion. Love, for Jesus, is complete and sacrificial. It's where the forgiveness of sins come from. It's about lost sheep. Loving and forgiving your enemies. It's not just about being a good person.

Plus, Jesus wasn't just saying, be a good person. He was saying look after the disenfranchised. Our stance against slavery, racism, etc. came from that. Note that other non-Christian countries still maintain their caste systems and other inhuman religious and cultural practices. In the name of religion, unsurprisingly.

Philip Yancey wrote a good book about it, What's So Amazing About Grace?, and pointed out that this, forgiving past quarrels, is the only solution to war between countries (putting aside for the moment, the economic motivation of war).

5.God vs Religion
We don’t seem to notice this but the Judaic/Christian/Muslim God does not belong to any religion and indeed, hates religion with a passion. Jesus spoke most and most harshly against the lawgivers and religious leaders of his own "religion".

6. What does it matter?
In case you haven't noticed, we're in crisis, not just in terms of environmental crisis, but also in many aspects of our lives, and yet we're also closest to global peace than we've ever been. We need a way forward. We need an alternative to materialism.

7. Is Christianity the solution?
Not in its current form and maybe not even as a religion but as a universal basis for humanity and human rights. But as a personal religion, it also works for me. It's a lot less superstitious and more scientific than you think it is. There's no need to convert anyone to Christianity. We just need to accept its ideals. Which are self-evident enough for most people. We don't even have to succeed doing so. Love one another, that's good enough.

The rest is in the far more able hands of God, lol.
*Sorry, I couldn't resist this last sentence.
That's a lot of evidence that religion works as a social adhesive, holding societies together and giving them purpose. Some of it I think you take too far; You have a lot more work to do to convince me that we need a God as an alternative to materialism, and even more to convince me that the Christian God is that God.

But the really glaring problem here, to me, is that no amount of demonstration that a religion is beneficial to human societies gets us one iota closer to the conclusion that the claimed existence of Gods (much less of any specific God) is true.

Being a social adhesive doesn’t necessarily mean that it is a beneficial adhesive, either. But yes, I think we can say that some religions in certain countries and contexts have adhesive qualities and some of it may be beneficial.

I, personally, have no need for this adhesive, but if others benefit from it, I don’t object. As noted earlier, I am not against religion or any human cultural practices, though every practice may have negative results.
 
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