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MCATs, Affirmative Action, and DEI, Oh My

What is this thread about? :unsure:

Since it's all over the place, let me add a bit. First of all, I looked up the average age for when a doctor starts to practice and it's between 25 and 29, hardly middle age. Of course that varies as I read about an NP recently who wanted to become an MD and she was just accepted to medical school at age 70. One of my former doctors had a Phd in engineering and then went to med school so she was close to 40 when she started to practice. She was brilliant intellectually, but also a space head in many ways. I was tempted to add all the times I've been misdiagnosed or mistreated by doctors, but that would take up way too much room. I despise most doctors. I prefer an NP for primary care and I've only known two who weren't very competent.

Also, doctors don't heal anyone. They give advice and write prescriptions. There are very few I've known who I would trust. Some do surgery or other procedures etc. But, people who live healthy lifestyles and follow good medical advice are healed by their own behavior. Some surgeons are excellent, while others often fuck things up. So many doctors are assholes and many aren't that bright regardless of how many years they spent in school. Btw, one of the residents where I volunteer is a retired OBGyn doc and I recently found out that he spent time in prison for botching up abortions, like leaving a dead fetus in the woman. This happened more than once.

My bro in law is a dentist and he's not that smart, despite taking all those science courses required for his dental degree from Emory. He voted for Trump twice. Is that enough evidence to support my claim that's he's not that bright?
But they have big student loans! So they totally need incomes of $250k out of residency after all of their staff and facilities and supplies are paid for! It’s absolutely necessary that they charge about $100 per visit and have about 20 visits per day!

They only generate around $1.4 million in revenue a year, they’re barely scraping by what with those student loans and all!
 
It did not used to be this way. Under my state’s constitition, they are obligated to fund public universities and colleges at a certain percent of the cost of running the university, the rest to be made up in donations, fees abd tuition. The state has failed to meet that threshold of financial support for many years now, meaning that students must pay substantially more to earn a degree
That’s a problem with universities. Turns out when you give away other people’s money in such a way, it allows the charges to escalate unreasonably.
‘Other people’s money???’

Education is a public good. It benefits all of society to have an educated populace who are able to contribute more to society abd who are able to make better more reasoned decisions.

ALL of us benefit when we have people who are educated and trained fur vital roles in our society.

The benefits are to society. A decent society provides for the needs of its citizens.
Theoretically yes, it’s a public good. But realistically not all degrees benefit society as a whole. The problem is that there aren’t any guardrails to control tuition costs. Tax-supported universities, combined with guaranteed student loans has created a situation where colleges can increase tuition to rates that people would decline to pay if the had to make that decision themselves. Universities are taking advantage of goodwill, and leeching off of all of us.
I disagree: Society is benefited by having a well educated populace.

I don’t think that universities are leeching off of anybody. I’m a little biased given that I live in a college town and am married to a recently retired professor but honestly, public universities are struggling because there are fewer college aged people—and a bunch of fixed costs. Now state universities compete hard for students and set of that is offering a bunch of amenities that simply did not exist when I was in school—or even my kids. They also tend to be pretty full of administrators/admin support.

Public universities provide very necessary services to the public.

Hubby and I always laugh hysterically whenever we see a television or film depiction of any university, especially professor’s offices! I went back to university—twice—as an adult. I remember needing to meet with one professor in his office —which he shared, meaning his office mate had to leave the room during these conferences. The entire office was maybe 8x7. Max. No windows. Barely enough room for the two desks and chairs. Hubby’s was bigger and not shared. He had a file cabinet and shelves around the perimeter of the ceiling. No window until a couple of years before he retired.
A year of undergrad has increased more than 400% since 1990, versus cumulative inflation of about 250%. But having a bachelors today is of less value than it was then.

Education as a concept has value, but degree inflation is a problem. Tuition has far outpaced the value of a degree, and many degrees aren’t in and of themselves valuable.
Ah, I believe all education is valuable in and of itself.

I do not see the value of education as being how many bucks you can turn on it.
 
What is this thread about? :unsure:

Since it's all over the place, let me add a bit. First of all, I looked up the average age for when a doctor starts to practice and it's between 25 and 29, hardly middle age. Of course that varies as I read about an NP recently who wanted to become an MD and she was just accepted to medical school at age 70. One of my former doctors had a Phd in engineering and then went to med school so she was close to 40 when she started to practice. She was brilliant intellectually, but also a space head in many ways. I was tempted to add all the times I've been misdiagnosed or mistreated by doctors, but that would take up way too much room. I despise most doctors. I prefer an NP for primary care and I've only known two who weren't very competent.

Also, doctors don't heal anyone. They give advice and write prescriptions. There are very few I've known who I would trust. Some do surgery or other procedures etc. But, people who live healthy lifestyles and follow good medical advice are healed by their own behavior. Some surgeons are excellent, while others often fuck things up. So many doctors are assholes and many aren't that bright regardless of how many years they spent in school. Btw, one of the residents where I volunteer is a retired OBGyn doc and I recently found out that he spent time in prison for botching up abortions, like leaving a dead fetus in the woman. This happened more than once.

My bro in law is a dentist and he's not that smart, despite taking all those science courses required for his dental degree from Emory. He voted for Trump twice. Is that enough evidence to support my claim that's he's not that bright?
But they have big student loans! So they totally need incomes of $250k out of residency after all of their staff and facilities and supplies are paid for! It’s absolutely necessary that they charge about $100 per visit and have about 20 visits per day!

They only generate around $1.4 million in revenue a year, they’re barely scraping by what with those student loans and all!
Well of course all of that $100 goes straight into the bank accounts of doctors. D’oh.
 
That’s a problem with universities. Turns out when you give away other people’s money in such a way, it allows the charges to escalate unreasonably.
That's a problem with the right-wing. Turns out that when you make people pay for significant and expensive infrastructure that they would rather use without paying for it at all, they get all snitty about the payment model not precisely accounting their individual use and submitting them with an individual itemised invoice.

The fact is that the broad infrastructure that is provided by government is the fundamental difference between being able to be healthy and wealthy, and living in a third world shit-hole where only a tiny number of kleptocrats can have any kind of modern healthcare - and they have to pay to import doctors*, because their countries don't produce their own.

The degree to which an individual is responsible for the cost of providing such broad infrastructure as universities and medical schools (that is, the degree to which they benefit personally from the government funding of broad infrastructure, of which higher education is but a minuscule part) is very difficult to calculate.

So it is impractical to invoice everyone an itemised and detailed account for the stuff they used. This does not, however, make ot impossible to estimate who is benefitting most from this spending. One pretty good proxy measure is to simply look at earnings. Those who earn most income, likely are benefitting most from the existence of government, and of all the myriad infrastructural gubbins that we know is there, but can't specifically account back to an individual user.

Who is the ultimate user of educating doctors? Well, everybody. But you can't get rich if half your workforce are off sick.

Who is the ultimate user of a strong military? Well, everybody. But you stand to have more stuff looted from you when the Canadians invade if you have more stuff to begin with.

Dividing up the cost of broad infrastructure - of government services - roughly proportional to income, as taxes, seems to me like an excellent way to pay for these things. It is about as fair and equitable as it is possible to achieve without such absurdly detailed accounting that the overhead of paying accountants would represent the overwhelming majority of all national expenditure.

But of course, there will be those who would like this stuff for nothing (or who demand, absurdly, that they not pay for it unless they specifically and personally asked for it), And those folks will try to characterise this essential difference between the first world and the third, as "giving away other people's money".

It's a very stupid and selfish characterisation of paying for infrastructure.

Indeed, it depends on the insane notion that money is an individually owned commodity, which it is not - money itself is an infrastructural service. You can have your own money, of course; But good luck getting anyone else to accept it as payment for anything. If you want people to accept money, it probably needs to be backed by a government or a bank. Emily Lake Dollars or Bilby Dollars are probably worthless, but US Dollars and Australian Dollars are not.

In the USA, the vast majority of money is in the form of US Dollars. They aren't your money; They are the Federal Reserve Bank's money, and you can use them (or not) as defined by the Federal Government of which the Reserve Bank is a part. A hundred dollar bill in your wallet is essentially a government service; Take away the government service characteristic, and what's left has the same value as Monopoly money. One of the terms and conditions of your use of US money is that you remit a portion of the money that you handle to the IRS. That's not taking your money; It's requiring you to use their money in accordance with their rules for its use.

The problem that you are mischaracterising as "giv[ing] away other people's money" is, insofar as it exists at all, in fact a problem due to inadequately overseeing the bureacracy that funds education. If money is being diverted from its purpose, as defined in law, then that's a problem quite different and separate from "giv[ing] away other people's money". If government officials are derelict in their duty to obtain good value for the money they spend on your behalf, then that needs to be addressed.

But whinging about the existence of government spending at all, is at best pointless, and at worst counterproductive, as it helps government employees to conceal inefficiency, corruption, and graft, behind a smoke-screen of "It's not my money so I needn't care if it is wasted, despite the avoidance of such waste being a central competency of my job".











* Of course, there are plenty of doctors born in the third world who practice in the countries of their birth - but the good ones, as used as personal physician to His Majestic Excellency, Grand President and Supreme Ruler For Life, General Wonthelastcoup, all imported their education as doctors from other countries. Even if the good General employs doctors born locally, it's a shoo-in that they went abroad to study, and in the hugely unlikely event that they went to a local medical school, the textbooks and teachers were assuredly imports.
 
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What is this thread about? :unsure:

Since it's all over the place, let me add a bit. First of all, I looked up the average age for when a doctor starts to practice and it's between 25 and 29, hardly middle age. Of course that varies as I read about an NP recently who wanted to become an MD and she was just accepted to medical school at age 70. One of my former doctors had a Phd in engineering and then went to med school so she was close to 40 when she started to practice. She was brilliant intellectually, but also a space head in many ways. I was tempted to add all the times I've been misdiagnosed or mistreated by doctors, but that would take up way too much room. I despise most doctors. I prefer an NP for primary care and I've only known two who weren't very competent.

Also, doctors don't heal anyone. They give advice and write prescriptions. There are very few I've known who I would trust. Some do surgery or other procedures etc. But, people who live healthy lifestyles and follow good medical advice are healed by their own behavior. Some surgeons are excellent, while others often fuck things up. So many doctors are assholes and many aren't that bright regardless of how many years they spent in school. Btw, one of the residents where I volunteer is a retired OBGyn doc and I recently found out that he spent time in prison for botching up abortions, like leaving a dead fetus in the woman. This happened more than once.

My bro in law is a dentist and he's not that smart, despite taking all those science courses required for his dental degree from Emory. He voted for Trump twice. Is that enough evidence to support my claim that's he's not that bright?
But they have big student loans! So they totally need incomes of $250k out of residency after all of their staff and facilities and supplies are paid for! It’s absolutely necessary that they charge about $100 per visit and have about 20 visits per day!

They only generate around $1.4 million in revenue a year, they’re barely scraping by what with those student loans and all!
You seem to be conflating doctors fresh out of training with established physicians creating their own practice office. That rarely happens.

A $100,000 loan at the standard interest rate and at the required 8 year term comes out to over $1,400 per month. $200,000 is over $2,800. Both figures are way more than most people's house payments.
 
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You seem to be conflating doctors fresh out of training with established physicians creating their own practice office. That rarely happens.

A $100,000 loan at the standard interest rate and at the required 8 year term comes out to over $1,400 per month. $200,000 is over $2,800. Both figures are way more than most people's house payments.
Adding to this:
AI Sparkles AI Generated Content

AI Overview


Establishing a single-doctor (solo) medical practice typically costs between $70,000 and $100,000+ for a lean primary care or mental health setup, while specialized or surgical practices can range from $150,000 to $500,000+. [1, 2, 3]

Key Startup Cost Categories
  • Office Space & Build-Out: Ranging from $2,000 to $3,400 monthly for rent (approx. 2,000 sq. ft.), with initial lease deposits or build-out costs adding thousands more depending on location. [1, 2]
  • Medical Equipment: $5,000 to $15,000 for basic exam tables and essentials if purchasing used or leasing; high-tech specialties require significantly more. [1, 2, 3]
  • Electronic Health Records (EHR) & IT: $5,000 to $25,000 for initial setup, data integration, and software licensing fees. [1, 2, 3]
  • Staffing & Payroll: $3,000 to $5,000 monthly for an initial cross-trained medical assistant or receptionist. [1, 2]
  • Legal, Accounting & Professional Fees: $1,500 to $5,000 for business formation, licenses, credentialing, and tax setup. [1, 2]
  • Insurance: $5,000 to $15,000 annually for medical malpractice insurance, plus roughly $1,000 annually for general liability. [1]
 
What is this thread about? :unsure:

Since it's all over the place, let me add a bit. First of all, I looked up the average age for when a doctor starts
Also, doctors don't heal anyone. They give advice and write prescriptions. There are very few I've known who I would trust. Some do surgery or other procedures etc. But, people who live healthy lifestyles and follow good medical advice are healed by their own behavior. Some surgeons are excellent, while others often fuck things up. So many doctors are assholes and many aren't that bright regardless of how many years they spent in school. Btw, one of the residents where I volunteer is a retired OBGyn doc and I recently found out that he spent time in prison for botching up abortions, like leaving a dead fetus in the woman. This happened more than once.
My experience is much different than yours. I lived a very healthy lifestyle - refereed soccer for over 20 years at the youth, hs, and college. I’ve had cancer scares, cancer, vertigo, heart disease, and other ailments, all of which were superbly handled by doctors, physician assistants and nurses. I’m extremely grateful ti every single one.
 
Ah, I believe all education is valuable in and of itself.

I do not see the value of education as being how many bucks you can turn on it.
Education for personal growth is a fine thing, I suppose. But if someone gets governme Hacked loans or grants, I think there should be a reasonable likelihood that they don’t default and can pay them back. I don’t think that’s unreasonable.

But this is also missing most of my point. Making guaranteed loans available to pretty much anyone for any degree has created degree inflation. It allowed a massive increase in the number of people with degrees… so employers now require degrees for jobs that genuinely don’t need a degree at all. There’s absolutely no reason that a claims processor needs a degree, it takes no higher ed to do the job.

But because everyone needs a degree, everyone needs to go to college. And they need a loan to get a degree. And the loans are guaranteed. And the money is paid directly to the school, which faces zero financial risk. And which also faces no oversight or limits on their tuition.

Artificially induced demand paired with zero financial risk. Is it any wonder tuition costs have risen around three times faster than inflation?
 
What is this thread about? :unsure:

Since it's all over the place, let me add a bit. First of all, I looked up the average age for when a doctor starts to practice and it's between 25 and 29, hardly middle age. Of course that varies as I read about an NP recently who wanted to become an MD and she was just accepted to medical school at age 70. One of my former doctors had a Phd in engineering and then went to med school so she was close to 40 when she started to practice. She was brilliant intellectually, but also a space head in many ways. I was tempted to add all the times I've been misdiagnosed or mistreated by doctors, but that would take up way too much room. I despise most doctors. I prefer an NP for primary care and I've only known two who weren't very competent.

Also, doctors don't heal anyone. They give advice and write prescriptions. There are very few I've known who I would trust. Some do surgery or other procedures etc. But, people who live healthy lifestyles and follow good medical advice are healed by their own behavior. Some surgeons are excellent, while others often fuck things up. So many doctors are assholes and many aren't that bright regardless of how many years they spent in school. Btw, one of the residents where I volunteer is a retired OBGyn doc and I recently found out that he spent time in prison for botching up abortions, like leaving a dead fetus in the woman. This happened more than once.

My bro in law is a dentist and he's not that smart, despite taking all those science courses required for his dental degree from Emory. He voted for Trump twice. Is that enough evidence to support my claim that's he's not that bright?
But they have big student loans! So they totally need incomes of $250k out of residency after all of their staff and facilities and supplies are paid for! It’s absolutely necessary that they charge about $100 per visit and have about 20 visits per day!

They only generate around $1.4 million in revenue a year, they’re barely scraping by what with those student loans and all!
Well of course all of that $100 goes straight into the bank accounts of doctors. D’oh.
Basic math, only involving elementary level arithmetic. Think about it a bit.
 
That’s a problem with universities. Turns out when you give away other people’s money in such a way, it allows the charges to escalate unreasonably.
That's a problem with the right-wing. Turns out that when you make people pay for significant and expensive infrastructure that they would rather use without paying for it at all, they get all snitty about the payment model not precisely accounting their individual use and submitting them with an individual itemised invoice.

The fact is that the broad infrastructure that is provided by government is the fundamental difference between being able to be healthy and wealthy, and living in a third world shit-hole where only a tiny number of kleptocrats can have any kind of modern healthcare - and they have to pay to import doctors*, because their countries don't produce their own.

The degree to which an individual is responsible for the cost of providing such broad infrastructure as universities and medical schools (that is, the degree to which they benefit personally from the government funding of broad infrastructure, of which higher education is but a minuscule part) is very difficult to calculate.

So it is impractical to invoice everyone an itemised and detailed account for the stuff they used. This does not, however, make ot impossible to estimate who is benefitting most from this spending. One pretty good proxy measure is to simply look at earnings. Those who earn most income, likely are benefitting most from the existence of government, and of all the myriad infrastructural gubbins that we know is there, but can't specifically account back to an individual user.

Who is the ultimate user of educating doctors? Well, everybody. But you can't get rich if half your workforce are off sick.

Who is the ultimate user of a strong military? Well, everybody. But you stand to have more stuff looted from you when the Canadians invade if you have more stuff to begin with.

Dividing up the cost of broad infrastructure - of government services - roughly proportional to income, as taxes, seems to me like an excellent way to pay for these things. It is about as fair and equitable as it is possible to achieve without such absurdly detailed accounting that the overhead of paying accountants would represent the overwhelming majority of all national expenditure.

But of course, there will be those who would like this stuff for nothing (or who demand, absurdly, that they not pay for it unless they specifically and personally asked for it), And those folks will try to characterise this essential difference between the first world and the third, as "giving away other people's money".

It's a very stupid and selfish characterisation of paying for infrastructure.

Indeed, it depends on the insane notion that money is an individually owned commodity, which it is not - money itself is an infrastructural service. You can have your own money, of course; But good luck getting anyone else to accept it as payment for anything. If you want people to accept money, it probably needs to be backed by a government or a bank. Emily Lake Dollars or Bilby Dollars are probably worthless, but US Dollars and Australian Dollars are not.

In the USA, the vast majority of money is in the form of US Dollars. They aren't your money; They are the Federal Reserve Bank's money, and you can use them (or not) as defined by the Federal Government of which the Reserve Bank is a part. A hundred dollar bill in your wallet is essentially a government service; Take away the government service characteristic, and what's left has the same value as Monopoly money. One of the terms and conditions of your use of US money is that you remit a portion of the money that you handle to the IRS. That's not taking your money; It's requiring you to use their money in accordance with their rules for its use.

The problem that you are mischaracterising as "giv[ing] away other people's money" is, insofar as it exists at all, in fact a problem due to inadequately overseeing the bureacracy that funds education. If money is being diverted from its purpose, as defined in law, then that's a problem quite different and separate from "giv[ing] away other people's money". If government officials are derelict in their duty to obtain good value for the money they spend on your behalf, then that needs to be addressed.

But whinging about the existence of government spending at all, is at best pointless, and at worst counterproductive, as it helps government employees to conceal inefficiency, corruption, and graft, behind a smoke-screen of "It's not my money so I needn't care if it is wasted, despite the avoidance of such waste being a central competency of my job".











* Of course, there are plenty of doctors born in the third world who practice in the countries of their birth - but the good ones, as used as personal physician to His Majestic Excellency, Grand President and Supreme Ruler For Life, General Wonthelastcoup, all imported their education as doctors from other countries. Even if the good General employs doctors born locally, it's a shoo-in that they went abroad to study, and in the hugely unlikely event that they went to a local medical school, the textbooks and teachers were assuredly imports.
Your post doesn’t connect to mine in any rational way. Why exactly did you quote me?
 
What is this thread about? :unsure:

Since it's all over the place, let me add a bit. First of all, I looked up the average age for when a doctor starts to practice and it's between 25 and 29, hardly middle age. Of course that varies as I read about an NP recently who wanted to become an MD and she was just accepted to medical school at age 70. One of my former doctors had a Phd in engineering and then went to med school so she was close to 40 when she started to practice. She was brilliant intellectually, but also a space head in many ways. I was tempted to add all the times I've been misdiagnosed or mistreated by doctors, but that would take up way too much room. I despise most doctors. I prefer an NP for primary care and I've only known two who weren't very competent.

Also, doctors don't heal anyone. They give advice and write prescriptions. There are very few I've known who I would trust. Some do surgery or other procedures etc. But, people who live healthy lifestyles and follow good medical advice are healed by their own behavior. Some surgeons are excellent, while others often fuck things up. So many doctors are assholes and many aren't that bright regardless of how many years they spent in school. Btw, one of the residents where I volunteer is a retired OBGyn doc and I recently found out that he spent time in prison for botching up abortions, like leaving a dead fetus in the woman. This happened more than once.

My bro in law is a dentist and he's not that smart, despite taking all those science courses required for his dental degree from Emory. He voted for Trump twice. Is that enough evidence to support my claim that's he's not that bright?
But they have big student loans! So they totally need incomes of $250k out of residency after all of their staff and facilities and supplies are paid for! It’s absolutely necessary that they charge about $100 per visit and have about 20 visits per day!

They only generate around $1.4 million in revenue a year, they’re barely scraping by what with those student loans and all!
You seem to be conflating doctors fresh out of training with established physicians creating their own practice office. That rarely happens.

A $100,000 loan at the standard interest rate and at the required 8 year term comes out to over $1,400 per month. $200,000 is over $2,800. Both figures are way more than most people's house payments.
Curious where you’re getting 8 years as a standard. Unless it’s a pretty small loan, repayment term is generally 25 to 30 years.

The new md income was provided by Toni, but seems to align with what the inter webs says.
 
What is this thread about? :unsure:

Since it's all over the place, let me add a bit. First of all, I looked up the average age for when a doctor starts to practice and it's between 25 and 29, hardly middle age. Of course that varies as I read about an NP recently who wanted to become an MD and she was just accepted to medical school at age 70. One of my former doctors had a Phd in engineering and then went to med school so she was close to 40 when she started to practice. She was brilliant intellectually, but also a space head in many ways. I was tempted to add all the times I've been misdiagnosed or mistreated by doctors, but that would take up way too much room. I despise most doctors. I prefer an NP for primary care and I've only known two who weren't very competent.

Also, doctors don't heal anyone. They give advice and write prescriptions. There are very few I've known who I would trust. Some do surgery or other procedures etc. But, people who live healthy lifestyles and follow good medical advice are healed by their own behavior. Some surgeons are excellent, while others often fuck things up. So many doctors are assholes and many aren't that bright regardless of how many years they spent in school. Btw, one of the residents where I volunteer is a retired OBGyn doc and I recently found out that he spent time in prison for botching up abortions, like leaving a dead fetus in the woman. This happened more than once.

My bro in law is a dentist and he's not that smart, despite taking all those science courses required for his dental degree from Emory. He voted for Trump twice. Is that enough evidence to support my claim that's he's not that bright?
But they have big student loans! So they totally need incomes of $250k out of residency after all of their staff and facilities and supplies are paid for! It’s absolutely necessary that they charge about $100 per visit and have about 20 visits per day!

They only generate around $1.4 million in revenue a year, they’re barely scraping by what with those student loans and all!
You seem to be conflating doctors fresh out of training with established physicians creating their own practice office. That rarely happens.

A $100,000 loan at the standard interest rate and at the required 8 year term comes out to over $1,400 per month. $200,000 is over $2,800. Both figures are way more than most people's house payments.
Sadly, those are no longer way more than most people with new mortgages payments.
 
What is this thread about? :unsure:

Since it's all over the place, let me add a bit. First of all, I looked up the average age for when a doctor starts to practice and it's between 25 and 29, hardly middle age. Of course that varies as I read about an NP recently who wanted to become an MD and she was just accepted to medical school at age 70. One of my former doctors had a Phd in engineering and then went to med school so she was close to 40 when she started to practice. She was brilliant intellectually, but also a space head in many ways. I was tempted to add all the times I've been misdiagnosed or mistreated by doctors, but that would take up way too much room. I despise most doctors. I prefer an NP for primary care and I've only known two who weren't very competent.

Also, doctors don't heal anyone. They give advice and write prescriptions. There are very few I've known who I would trust. Some do surgery or other procedures etc. But, people who live healthy lifestyles and follow good medical advice are healed by their own behavior. Some surgeons are excellent, while others often fuck things up. So many doctors are assholes and many aren't that bright regardless of how many years they spent in school. Btw, one of the residents where I volunteer is a retired OBGyn doc and I recently found out that he spent time in prison for botching up abortions, like leaving a dead fetus in the woman. This happened more than once.

My bro in law is a dentist and he's not that smart, despite taking all those science courses required for his dental degree from Emory. He voted for Trump twice. Is that enough evidence to support my claim that's he's not that bright?
But they have big student loans! So they totally need incomes of $250k out of residency after all of their staff and facilities and supplies are paid for! It’s absolutely necessary that they charge about $100 per visit and have about 20 visits per day!

They only generate around $1.4 million in revenue a year, they’re barely scraping by what with those student loans and all!
Well of course all of that $100 goes straight into the bank accounts of doctors. D’oh.
Basic math, only involving elementary level arithmetic. Think about it a bit.
Oh, I have.

I don’t think you have.
 
Ah, I believe all education is valuable in and of itself.

I do not see the value of education as being how many bucks you can turn on it.
Education for personal growth is a fine thing, I suppose. But if someone gets governme Hacked loans or grants, I think there should be a reasonable likelihood that they don’t default and can pay them back. I don’t think that’s unreasonable.

But this is also missing most of my point. Making guaranteed loans available to pretty much anyone for any degree has created degree inflation. It allowed a massive increase in the number of people with degrees… so employers now require degrees for jobs that genuinely don’t need a degree at all. There’s absolutely no reason that a claims processor needs a degree, it takes no higher ed to do the job.

But because everyone needs a degree, everyone needs to go to college. And they need a loan to get a degree. And the loans are guaranteed. And the money is paid directly to the school, which faces zero financial risk. And which also faces no oversight or limits on their tuition.

Artificially induced demand paired with zero financial risk. Is it any wonder tuition costs have risen around three times faster than inflation?
I guess that you and I think of things in a fundamentally different ways.

I think that anyone should be able to pursue whatever degree or degrees or level of education or training that they aspire to abd can handle.

I think it is a profound mistake to force most students to take on enormous student debt in order to have a shot at post secondary education.

I believe that among the driving forces behind increasing requirements for ever more degrees as a way to keep ‘certain people’ out of some fields and safely in ‘their lane’
 
What is this thread about? :unsure:

Since it's all over the place, let me add a bit. First of all, I looked up the average age for when a doctor starts
Also, doctors don't heal anyone. They give advice and write prescriptions. There are very few I've known who I would trust. Some do surgery or other procedures etc. But, people who live healthy lifestyles and follow good medical advice are healed by their own behavior. Some surgeons are excellent, while others often fuck things up. So many doctors are assholes and many aren't that bright regardless of how many years they spent in school. Btw, one of the residents where I volunteer is a retired OBGyn doc and I recently found out that he spent time in prison for botching up abortions, like leaving a dead fetus in the woman. This happened more than once.
My experience is much different than yours. I lived a very healthy lifestyle - refereed soccer for over 20 years at the youth, hs, and college. I’ve had cancer scares, cancer, vertigo, heart disease, and other ailments, all of which were superbly handled by doctors, physician assistants and nurses. I’m extremely grateful ti every single one.
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that living a healthy lifestyle is a guarantee of good health. And, sure there are some very good doctors and most of the nurses I worked with over my career were very good and caring, but a few were not, including one of my favorite supervisors. She was fun to work with, but despite having an advanced degree, she didn't follow infection control techniques etc. I've also witnessed many doctors who never washed their hands, including one who cared for my late mother in law, as well as the one in a small clinic where I did volunteer work for a year or two. Imo, infection control is one of the most important things in health care, so when I see a lack of it, that makes me very upset.

I have personally known one extremely caring doctor who didn't care about money. He even walked two blocks with me to visit one of my home health patients in a poverty stricken neighborhood. For better or worse, he closed his practice and went on to teach medical school, so I hope he was a good influence on his students. That happened over 40 years ago.

There are a few good doctors that I know of in the place where I get my primary care, but since a black friend of mine is having a lot of trouble getting pain meds from one, I do wonder if he has some bias against his black patients. The same guy approved narcotics for me about 8 years ago. I wonder why. My friend is a dear person who would never abuse a drug and it angers me that she is suffering with pain. She and I are the exact same age.

My surgeon was a good one but I still suffer from rather awful knee pain, but that is common among about 20 to 30% of people who have had knee replacements, so I don't blame him.

Ok...I've said enough and I hope you get my point, but I am glad that you have received good care from your providers.
 
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What is this thread about? :unsure:

Since it's all over the place, let me add a bit. First of all, I looked up the average age for when a doctor starts to practice and it's between 25 and 29, hardly middle age. Of course that varies as I read about an NP recently who wanted to become an MD and she was just accepted to medical school at age 70. One of my former doctors had a Phd in engineering and then went to med school so she was close to 40 when she started to practice. She was brilliant intellectually, but also a space head in many ways. I was tempted to add all the times I've been misdiagnosed or mistreated by doctors, but that would take up way too much room. I despise most doctors. I prefer an NP for primary care and I've only known two who weren't very competent.

Also, doctors don't heal anyone. They give advice and write prescriptions. There are very few I've known who I would trust. Some do surgery or other procedures etc. But, people who live healthy lifestyles and follow good medical advice are healed by their own behavior. Some surgeons are excellent, while others often fuck things up. So many doctors are assholes and many aren't that bright regardless of how many years they spent in school. Btw, one of the residents where I volunteer is a retired OBGyn doc and I recently found out that he spent time in prison for botching up abortions, like leaving a dead fetus in the woman. This happened more than once.

My bro in law is a dentist and he's not that smart, despite taking all those science courses required for his dental degree from Emory. He voted for Trump twice. Is that enough evidence to support my claim that's he's not that bright?
But they have big student loans! So they totally need incomes of $250k out of residency after all of their staff and facilities and supplies are paid for! It’s absolutely necessary that they charge about $100 per visit and have about 20 visits per day!

They only generate around $1.4 million in revenue a year, they’re barely scraping by what with those student loans and all!
Well of course all of that $100 goes straight into the bank accounts of doctors. D’oh.
Basic math, only involving elementary level arithmetic. Think about it a bit.
Oh, I have.

I don’t think you have.
I said they bring in $1.4 million as revenue. You said they take home $250k as income. Those aren’t in contradiction. How much comes in the door, less operating expenses, leaves personal income as the result.
 
Ah, I believe all education is valuable in and of itself.

I do not see the value of education as being how many bucks you can turn on it.
Education for personal growth is a fine thing, I suppose. But if someone gets governme Hacked loans or grants, I think there should be a reasonable likelihood that they don’t default and can pay them back. I don’t think that’s unreasonable.

But this is also missing most of my point. Making guaranteed loans available to pretty much anyone for any degree has created degree inflation. It allowed a massive increase in the number of people with degrees… so employers now require degrees for jobs that genuinely don’t need a degree at all. There’s absolutely no reason that a claims processor needs a degree, it takes no higher ed to do the job.

But because everyone needs a degree, everyone needs to go to college. And they need a loan to get a degree. And the loans are guaranteed. And the money is paid directly to the school, which faces zero financial risk. And which also faces no oversight or limits on their tuition.

Artificially induced demand paired with zero financial risk. Is it any wonder tuition costs have risen around three times faster than inflation?
I guess that you and I think of things in a fundamentally different ways.

I think that anyone should be able to pursue whatever degree or degrees or level of education or training that they aspire to abd can handle.
I think that’s a fine utopian ideal. I don’t think society should be expected to foot the bill for personal hobbies. I don’t think anyone should be denied education, but I do think federally backed and guaranteed loans should benefit society, not just provide pleasure for the individual.

There are many, many ways to acquire knowledge for personal growth. Libraries, publications, even auditing classes are all available and I encourage them. Go learn things and be curious… but not all of it needs a degree.
I think it is a profound mistake to force most students to take on enormous student debt in order to have a shot at post secondary education.
I think asking what a student is going to do with that degree is a reasonable thing to ask. No, they shouldn’t need to take on enormous debt, but a huge amount of that education isn’t taken on with an eye to being self-sufficient in the future. Nobody has to take on loans if they don’t think they’ll be able to repay them. There are many, many ways to learn.
I believe that among the driving forces behind increasing requirements for ever more degrees as a way to keep ‘certain people’ out of some fields and safely in ‘their lane’
I think you’re extremely wrong and mislead on this. Especially as it simply isn’t what’s happening in the real world. This is a purely supply-demand result.
 
What is this thread about? :unsure:

Since it's all over the place, let me add a bit. First of all, I looked up the average age for when a doctor starts to practice and it's between 25 and 29, hardly middle age. Of course that varies as I read about an NP recently who wanted to become an MD and she was just accepted to medical school at age 70. One of my former doctors had a Phd in engineering and then went to med school so she was close to 40 when she started to practice. She was brilliant intellectually, but also a space head in many ways. I was tempted to add all the times I've been misdiagnosed or mistreated by doctors, but that would take up way too much room. I despise most doctors. I prefer an NP for primary care and I've only known two who weren't very competent.

Also, doctors don't heal anyone. They give advice and write prescriptions. There are very few I've known who I would trust. Some do surgery or other procedures etc. But, people who live healthy lifestyles and follow good medical advice are healed by their own behavior. Some surgeons are excellent, while others often fuck things up. So many doctors are assholes and many aren't that bright regardless of how many years they spent in school. Btw, one of the residents where I volunteer is a retired OBGyn doc and I recently found out that he spent time in prison for botching up abortions, like leaving a dead fetus in the woman. This happened more than once.

My bro in law is a dentist and he's not that smart, despite taking all those science courses required for his dental degree from Emory. He voted for Trump twice. Is that enough evidence to support my claim that's he's not that bright?
But they have big student loans! So they totally need incomes of $250k out of residency after all of their staff and facilities and supplies are paid for! It’s absolutely necessary that they charge about $100 per visit and have about 20 visits per day!

They only generate around $1.4 million in revenue a year, they’re barely scraping by what with those student loans and all!
Well of course all of that $100 goes straight into the bank accounts of doctors. D’oh.
Basic math, only involving elementary level arithmetic. Think about it a bit.
Oh, I have.

I don’t think you have.
I said they bring in $1.4 million as revenue. You said they take home $250k as income. Those aren’t in contradiction. How much comes in the door, less operating expenses, leaves personal income as the result.
I’m sorry if I misunderstood you: I was pointing out that whatever fee you pay for a doctor’s visit is not their personal money. Instead, your fee pays for all of the infrastructure costs and all of the costs of all of the other labor involved in running even a tiny practice.
 
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