!0 Commandments versus a legal system

[steve_bank]

A legal system like in the west is not necessarily about morality and justice. It is about maintaining order.o
In the time of Moses although stated as from god, it is really a social legal system.

It promotes order. No adultery or fornication which can lead to conflict. Do not lie or steal, again all about order. Do not bare false witness or make false accusation, again promotes social order and stability.

 

[Valjean]

Why do you single out the West?
I think legal systems in the West -- and i assume you're talking about Europe and the Americas -- tend to be based on abstract principles of fairness and idealism than those in the ancient world. That's not to say this veneer isn't fragile. If people feel threatened or insecure, the desire for order, convention and predictability can still override principle.

 

[steve_bank]

Why do you single out the West?
I think legal systems in the West -- and i assume you're talking about Europe and the Americas -- tend to be based on abstract principles of fairness and idealism than those in the ancient world. That's not to say this veneer isn't fragile. If people feel threatened or insecure, the desire for order, convention and predictability can still override principle.

Fairness and legal systems are not the same.

sometimes the obliviously guilty go free because of the way the system works. A system of fixed rules and imperfect people can never be perfect. Sometimes the innocent are convicted. It is about a system that maintains order over chaos and individual justice.

The obvious flip side is the Philippines where the president had been involved in extrajudicial killing of criminals. Or the Argentine death squads. Or Iran and Saudi Arabia.

 

[fromderinside]

Fair, sides, what the hay. Systems to survive need correcting processes. What was fair when women were property isn't fair when women are persons. Correcting processes need be in place to bring legal systems up to current specification of 'fair' and what constitutes 'sides'. Those processes need be adjusted for current conditions and current problems and they need to be constituted demanding continuous process improvement.

Pointing at others, the philippines for instance, is not one of those processes. Processes need be based on evidence of performance which is continuously updated for drivers and consequences using widely agreed to procedures.

Since this is a morality thread one must first accept that morality is an evolving thing not some etched in stone construct.

 

[Politesse]

A legal system like in the west is not necessarily about morality and justice. It is about maintaining order.o
In the time of Moses although stated as from god, it is really a social legal system.

It promotes order. No adultery or fornication which can lead to conflict. Do not lie or steal, again all about order. Do not bare false witness or make false accusation, again promotes social order and stability.

We possess two versions of the Decalogue, but both are part of the actual legal codes of the ancient House of Israel such as they were during the nearly-theocratic Second Temple period. It's not surprising that they have a legal feel.

 

[steve_bank]

A legal system like in the west is not necessarily about morality and justice. It is about maintaining order.o
In the time of Moses although stated as from god, it is really a social legal system.

It promotes order. No adultery or fornication which can lead to conflict. Do not lie or steal, again all about order. Do not bare false witness or make false accusation, again promotes social order and stability.

We possess two versions of the Decalogue, but both are part of the actual legal codes of the ancient House of Israel such as they were during the nearly-theocratic Second Temple period. It's not surprising that they have a legal feel.

All cultures had codes for civil, moral, and religious issues. The Code Of Hammurabi.

Google bible 613 commandments. It pulls out all the biblical dictates. Compared to the Code Of Hammurabi the Hebrew codes were scattered over centuries with no consistency and some rather bizarre crimes and punishments. What you expect of a superstitious tribal culture.

Hardly a moral code for modern times.

 

[Bronzeage]

Every culture known to mankind has their own version of the 10 Commandments. The core of everyone of these is the edict, "Do not kill your friends." The second is "Don't steal your friend's stuff."

These two basic rules are what allows a group of people to live in close proximity, whether it's a tent, a grass hut, or a cave. There's nothing vague about their origin. Humans cannot survive alone. We have to cooperate and without the assurance that our camp mates won't bash our skull while we sleep. Homo sapiens and all the hominids who walked on two legs before, would have gone extinct. Actually, we are the only ones who didn't, so who knows. In any case, it's kept us creating new homo sapiens for a very long time.

The operative words are "friends" and "stuff". In order to benefit from the two rules, we have to know who are our friends, and what is stuff. All the complex legal codes which have been created since the beginning of time were put in place to define these two words. It draws a circle around the group and within the group, we know what can be claimed and what cannot.

Beyond that, more rules have to be crafted to define what happens to people who kill friends and steal friend's stuff. The environment has the greatest effect on the sub-rules. If we live on a tropical island where we don't need clothes and all our food grows on trees, property is not going to be a big deal. What difference does it make if I have four coconuts and you have five. Another coconut is going fall to the ground in a minute. In a harsh environment, where food is scarce and either freezing to death or dying of thirst is a constant threat, the sub-rules get very specific and usually very harsh.

One constant problem with codified rules is they tend to stick around, long after the conditions which spawned them are gone. An adulterous wife is no longer a threat to the family's wealth (allowing someone from outside the group to consume resources), so stoning is no longer in order. That kind of thing still happens in some places, mostly because that's the way it's always been done.

There's nothing particularly special about the 10 Commandments of Moses. They just happen to have been the rules of a literate society which passed them on to other literate societies which took cooperation to higher levels than had ever been seen.

As societies and cultures become more complex, which is to say, they have more resources(however they get them), whatever authority rules the day, co-opts the rules and claims they made them up. Maybe it's divine inspiration or just divine right, but it's never something new.

 

[Valjean]

The powers-that-be are concerned with maintaining their power and/or wealth. Their concern is stability and preserving the system that created their power. They craft laws accordingly, to suppress anything or anyone threatening the status quo. Heaven forbid the hoi polloi should ever catch on and demand a piece of the pie.

Best maintain the trappings of democracy and keep the people either happy or squabbling amongst themselves.

 

[fromderinside]

The problem with identifying powers is that there are always many perceived powers which is normal for living things since living things compete for resources. Yet as a social species we need recognize we are one species and that with which we must compete are natural forces and conditions rather than among ourselves for possession and exploitation of such resources. Wasting energy on differentiating among us impedes this primary task of overcoming natural conditions outside our species.

Just a take on what might be another way to approach morality.

 

[HaRaAYaH]

A legal system like in the west is not necessarily about morality and justice. It is about maintaining order.o
In the time of Moses although stated as from god, it is really a social legal system.

It promotes order. No adultery or fornication which can lead to conflict. Do not lie or steal, again all about order. Do not bare false witness or make false accusation, again promotes social order and stability.

We possess two versions of the Decalogue, but both are part of the actual legal codes of the ancient House of Israel such as they were during the nearly-theocratic Second Temple period. It's not surprising that they have a legal feel.

All cultures had codes for civil, moral, and religious issues. The Code Of Hammurabi.

Google bible 613 commandments. It pulls out all the biblical dictates. Compared to the Code Of Hammurabi the Hebrew codes were scattered over centuries with no consistency and some rather bizarre crimes and punishments. What you expect of a superstitious tribal culture.

Hardly a moral code for modern times.

You must stop doing this. It's really not intellectually sound. It's not what the 613 commandments say, it's how Judaism interprets them. All words need interpretation. The US Constitutions seems clear to me, nut it's not what I say it is, it's what the Supreme Court says it is. SO the eye for an eye crap is not literal. In Judaism it's monetary damages. The death penalty stuff. Judaism is opposed to the death penalty. And those 613 rules only apply to Jews.

All laws of any society are about control.

 

[lpetrich]

Why not state them explicitly so that we can all know what we are talking about? Be careful about which version you list, because there is more than one in the Bible and more than one of the usual set of 10.

 

[HaRaAYaH]

Why not state them explicitly so that we can all know what we are talking about? Be careful about which version you list, because there is more than one in the Bible and more than one of the usual set of 10.

The framers felt the Constitution was crystal clear. Humans have trouble with words. Always have, always will.

 

[Politesse]

Why not state them explicitly so that we can all know what we are talking about? Be careful about which version you list, because there is more than one in the Bible and more than one of the usual set of 10.

Your response does not make sense to me. What legal code has ever existed that did not need to be interpreted through some system of jurisprudence? No matter how "clear" a law is, HaRaAYaH's comment would still be relevant.

 

[fromderinside]

The code is clear. What it means to those existing under it is arbitrated in court.

 

[lpetrich]

As to the 10C's, there are three sets. The Exodus 20, Exodus 34, and Deuteronomy 5 sets. The Exod 20 and Deut 5 ones are duplicates, and they are at the beginning of larger law codes. The Exod 34 one is a different one. The Ten Commandments - Both Sets

Fun fact: a little after the Exod 20 set is that one should not walk upon an altar because one will expose oneself if one did.

The Exod 20 / Deut 5 set:

1. I am the Lord your God
2. Don't worship any gods in preference to me (Exod 20) / other than me (Deut 5)
3. Don't make depictions of anything or worship them
4. Don't misuse My name
5. Every seventh day is a holy day, and one must not work on that day
6. Honor your father and mother
7. Do not murder anyone
8. Do not steal anything
9. Do not falsely accuse anyone of anything
10. Do not desire anything that your neighbor owns

The Exod 34 set:

1. Do not worship any god but Me
2. Do not make any agreements with the other people who live on your land
3. Do not make cast-metal statues of gods
4. Observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread
5. Offer your firstborn livestock animals to Me
6. On each seventh day, do not work
7. Observe the Feast of Weeks and the Feast of Ingathering
8. Be sure to make your offerings without yeast
9. Offer your first harvests to Me
10. Do not cook a baby goat in its mother's milk

 

[steve_bank]

All cultures had codes for civil, moral, and religious issues. The Code Of Hammurabi.

Google bible 613 commandments. It pulls out all the biblical dictates. Compared to the Code Of Hammurabi the Hebrew codes were scattered over centuries with no consistency and some rather bizarre crimes and punishments. What you expect of a superstitious tribal culture.

Hardly a moral code for modern times.

You must stop doing this. It's really not intellectually sound. It's not what the 613 commandments say, it's how Judaism interprets them. All words need interpretation. The US Constitutions seems clear to me, nut it's not what I say it is, it's what the Supreme Court says it is. SO the eye for an eye crap is not literal. In Judaism it's monetary damages. The death penalty stuff. Judaism is opposed to the death penalty. And those 613 rules only apply to Jews.

All laws of any society are about control.

Functionally the 10C amd the 613 were all a legal-social system. It defined tribal social bounds and behavior and defined punishments.

It was all a legal system functionally, invoking god is irrelevant which is my point. Saying by the leadership it is all from god who will punish you is just an enforcement tool.

What Jews do today is irrelevant to the discussion. Jews today run from ultra conservative to liberal with different interpretations.

As to words and meaning, the founders put prohibitions in the constitution against religious tests for office and creating laws to promote religion because they understood the issues and conflicts surrounding religion.e Religious law is open to wide interpretations.

If you are uncomfortable on secular discussion of religion then do not read the threads and put me on ignore.

If you want to discuss Jews and the death penalty that would be a political discussion on Israel.

 

[HaRaAYaH]

Functionally the 10C amd the 613 were all a legal-social system. It defined tribal social bounds and behavior and defined punishments.

We agree.

It was all a legal system functionally, invoking god is irrelevant which is my point. Saying by the leadership it is all from god who will punish you is just an enforcement tool..

Well Judaism would disagree with you. I'm not speaking about American Jews today many of whom long ago abandoned any belief in God

What Jews do today is irrelevant to the discussion. Jews today run from ultra conservative to liberal with different interpretations.

This has nothing to do with Jews today.

As to words and meaning, the founders put prohibitions in the constitution against religious tests for office and creating laws to promote religion because they understood the issues and conflicts surrounding religion.e Religious law is open to wide interpretations.

They also prohibited the government from interfering with the free exercise of religion. They did not want one religion dominating the government. It's clear the founders expected a secular government and a religious society.

If you are uncomfortable on secular discussion of religion then do not read the threads and put me on ignore..

I;m not uncomfortable being around people who disagree with me. I expect people here will challenge my beliefs and I have no issue with it. I'll have an intellectual conversation with anyone, I just want it based on reality.

If you want to discuss Jews and the death penalty that would be a political discussion on Israel.

Well, here you go again. Your knowledge of the subject matter is limited.

I said Judaism is opposed to the death penalty not Jews of today.

A Sanhedrin that puts a man to death once in seven years is called a murderous one. R. Eleazar ben Azariah says 'Or even once in 70 years.' R. Tarfon and R. Akiva said, 'If we had been in the Sanhedrin no death sentence would ever have been passed

That's three sages from the Talmudic era, not three guys from the mens club at the local shul. The Rabbis erected every possible barrier to the implementation of the death penalty. So again, my point is this: You can disagree with whatever any region teaches about anything but you have to argue (to be intellectually honest) against what the religion holds, not what the text says. The Torah (the five books of Moses) contain about 80,000 words, Yet, the Babylonian Talmud which is basically an interpretation of the same is 1.8 million words.

 

[HaRaAYaH]

The Jewish Version:
The Exod 20 / Deut 5 set:

1. I am the Lord your God
2. Don't worship any gods in preference to me Don't make depictions of anything or worship them
3. Don't misuse My name
4. Remember the Sabbath day & keep it holy.
5. Honor your father and mother
6. Do not murder anyone
7. Do not commit adultery
8. Do not steal anything
9. Do not falsely accuse anyone of anything
10. Do not desire anything that your neighbor owns

The first five are considered commandments between god and man and the second 5 are between man and man

 

[lpetrich]

Fun fact. In the Book of Exodus, Moses gets very mad when he sees his fellow Israelites worship a golden statue of a bull. In his rage, he smashes the first set of tablets of the Law, the Exodus-20 set. But God obligingly makes a second set of tablets of the Law, the Exodus-34 set.

Why Christians get the 10 commandments wrong | Salon.com by Valerie Tarico

That’s what makes all of the pages devoted to useless things like tribal spats, genealogies, rules for slaveholders, menstrual rituals, misogynist trash talk and loquacious donkeys such a wasted opportunity. But even that would be less painful if core moral mandates like the Ten Commandments were of higher caliber.

Secularists had a good laugh a few years back, when Stephen Colbert nailed Georgia Representative Lynn Westmoreland, who had co-sponsored a bill requiring display of the Ten Commandments in the House and Senate chambers. “What are the Ten Commandments?” asked Colbert. Westmoreland came up with three.

VT's statement of them:

Exodus 20, KJV:
1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5. Honour thy father and thy mother, that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
6. Thou shalt not kill.
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8. Thou shalt not steal.
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

Exodus 34, KJV:
1. Thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
2. Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.
3. The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep.
4. All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male.
5. Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest.
6. Thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.
7. Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven.
8. Neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning.
9. The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the Lord thy God.
10. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

 

[HaRaAYaH]

My favorite version of the 10 commandments:

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI1JJZuopig[/YOUTUBE]