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120 Reasons to Reject Christianity

With a different angle of perspective, these myths of animals talking may not contradict the biblical scriptures at all.
I never said they contradicted Genesis.
I am just saying that a talking snake in an origin myth is not so very singular or unique that it MUST be connected to the second most powerful entity in the pantheon.
 
Learner said:
I and practically everyone (believer or non believer) has always known the serpent in the garden of Eden to be known and referred to as Satan.
For Christians by the understanding of the NT. Portrayals of evil is easily associated with serpents and demons. Obviously to us this all the latter part of the biblical addition because these things were yet to come from the view of the OT or Torah.
The point I was trying to get at was your sweep statement, now bolded above, which is quite obviously very Christian centric and really not a very accurate statement. Why would anyone outside of the Christian and Muslim believers “know this”? Why would a non-Christian think this? Why would a Jew, or a Hindu, or a Buddhist, or a Taoist, or a Sikh think this?

Yes there are quite a few bishops and preachers that have different ideas to the scriptures. What I can not understand is why John Shelby does not believe in what Jesus says regarding hell. Christians should follow the words of Christ.
Probably my favorite religious quip: What is the difference between liberal Christians and God-Breathed-Bible Christian? The liberal Christians realize that they are eating at a cafeteria.

Why do my in-laws think Jesus comment about ‘two swords being enough’ supports their absolutist gun rights and barely contained violence views? Why were evangelicals the biggest supporters of the invasion of Iraq? Why have evangelicals been the biggest supporter of torture as informational gathering technique over those not hyper religious? Why do so many Christians allow women to teach them? Why don’t Christian parents make sure their daughters all dress like missionary Baptists? Why did Christians fight against slavery in centuries past? Why aren’t all Christians like the pacifist Mennonites & Amish? Why do so many evangelical Christians tout the 10 Commandments, yet ignore the Sabbath? Why do preachers ignore the hordes of gluttony within their pews as they tear into those horrible gays again and again?

FWIW, the below would be a decent description of my current understanding of the Genesis snake:
http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/...-interpretation/how-the-serpent-became-satan/

]Introduced as “the most clever of all of the beasts of the field that YHWH God had made,” the serpent in the Garden of Eden is portrayed as just that: a serpent. Satan does not make an appearance in Genesis 2–3, for the simple reason that when the story was written, the concept of the devil had not yet been invented. Explaining the serpent in the Garden of Eden as Satan would have been as foreign a concept to the ancient authors of the text as referring to Ezekiel’s vision as a UFO (but Google “Ezekiel’s vision” now, and you’ll see that plenty of people today have made that connection!). In fact, while the word satan appears elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament, it is never a proper name; since there is no devil in ancient Israel’s worldview, there can’t yet have been a proper name for such a creature.

I could agree to some point like my mention above, about additions to the Biblical scriptures and yet to come. Scriptures does not stop just where the Torah ends. Regarding the snake I use the above.
Scripture most certainly does end at the Tanakh for Jews. As for us non-theists, only realize there is no cannon.
 
I never said they contradicted Genesis.
I am just saying that a talking snake in an origin myth is not so very singular or unique that it MUST be connected to the second most powerful entity in the pantheon.

I wasn't arguing against your post ,but you have highlighted something I found interesting.
 
It is implied in the narrative that the serpent was an entirely different creature before its punishment for its own role in the fall, as were Adam and Eve, pain in childbirth, etc, being their consequences. The serpent being transformed from what it was to crawl/slither upon the earth and be trodden under heels.

Which was not the fate of Satan, who is later described walking up and down, to and throe upon the earth, unpunished and non transformed to slither or crawl.

I could consider this and well pointed. I have just come across a theologian Pete Enns who would agree with you. He suggests that all the animals could talk and comunicate with God at that time. It does make sense to me regarding just an "ordinary" snake meaning this was the norm :
this was not an ordinary snake. If it is by this concept, then all snakes should be talking.

Pete Enns pointed out something much similar to your post that the serpent had legs previous to its demise.

He writes;
Genesis 3:1 presents the serpent simply as an animal. But how to explain his ability to talk? Some interpreters suggested that at first all animals were able to talk. The second century BC book of Jubilees says that when Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden, “the mouth of all the beasts and cattle and birds and whatever walked or moved was stopped from speaking because all of them used to speak with one another with one speech and one language” (3:28). Philo said that, “in olden times…snake could speak with a man’s voice” (On Creation 156).
The historian Josephus said, “at that time all living things spoke the same language” (Jewish Antiquities 1:41). - See more at:
http://biologos.org/blogs/guest/gen...preters-a-crafty-serpent#sthash.7obaIywH.dpuf


This may contradict present Christian understanding (mine especially) of Eden yet it would more importantly better "explain" old discrepencies in Christianity and progress continues . I agree with the author that says Christianity (mainstream) has to be rethinked.

Another Christian I should give credit to (lost the link) Explained the question of "how on earth could Noah round up all the animals even with a few people at hand?
He pointed out that Noah didn't need to. God comunicates with animals and viceversa.

"And of every living thing of all flesh, . . . two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive" (Genesis 6:19-20).

The donkey that spoke; numbers 22:28

Similar things regarding the dragon as well as talking animals in every culture.
 
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Learner, if you choose to believe this it sadly indicates you've given up learning and taken to believing things simply because someone imagines them.

It is entirely possible that all animal life possessed the ability to speak the King's English upon being created in the Garden of Eden. It is equally possible that the universe was created  Last Thursday (or even just 5 minutes ago according to Bertrand Russell) and everything we think we remember are just fake memories implanted in our heads by the trickster god who put us here.

The clear scientific evidence is quite conclusive that no snake species has the cranial capacity for a brain large enough to form the abstract references necessary for speech, nor do any of them have the vocal equipment necessary to produce speech. Additionally, the idea that magic fruit trees can offer the eater instant knowledge of subjects they do not already know or offer eternal youth and immortality have been pretty well quashed under the weight of scientific endeavor.

The moment one starts magicking problems off the table learning stops and fantasy takes over. Any theory based on magic is immune to falsification and therefore no longer subject to rational evaluation.

Some of us are just fine with that foundation underpinning their understanding of the world. If that's what you desire in your quest for learning so be it. But my advice is that this is not the path to learning, it is the chair of confirmation.
 
Even if somehow we were wrong and there was a talking snake way back then, it is sickening to think that the omniscient/omnipotent god would punish humans for all eternity for being doubtful of such an idea, and with it doubtful of other claims made by the Christian religion. If someone describes a talking animal, it would make the most sense for you to be skeptical of that claim, and then with it other religious claims made by that person.

*We should not be eternally condemned to Hell for being skeptical and reasonable*

So even if the God made its existence widely known, the last thing I would do is worship such a thing (for this reason, among other moral objections).

Brian
 
I believe it because it says so in the scriptures even when I can't fathom it, being at odds with the usual life experience of ever seeing such a thing.
Yeah but it doesn’t say in the Bible that it’s an historical event. Some Jews and Christians think that it can be both true but not an historical event. And, again, that animals talked with people before the world became a fallen and hostile place, with animals and humans fearing one another, is something shared across mythology and fable generally. If there's a truth in any of them, it's not that they're literal events but that they signify something about humanity generally.

And isn't there some figurative language in this Genesis story? Consider this: Did God mean it literally or figuratively when he said that Adam and Eve would die on the very day that they ate fruit from the tree? Or was he talking about mortality and/or becoming in some sense spiritually dead in a more general and figurative way?

Why is the serpent the bad “person” here anyway? The serpent says that if they eat the fruit they won’t die. What happens when they eat the fruit? They don’t die! The serpent says if they eat the fruit their eyes will be opened. And what happens when they eat the fruit? According to the text “And the eyes of both were opened”. The serpent said they’d become as gods knowing good and evil. And what happens when they eat the fruit? As God himself says “Behold man has become as one of us, knowing good and evil”.

Looks like the only deceivers in the tale are God, Adam and Eve.

Note that God’s complaint isn’t that they were disobedient but that they were getting too powerful so needed to be curbed from becoming godlike and immortal. He doesn't want humans becoming more like "us" (whoever all the other gods are); it's a theme that comes up again (tower of babel).

Anyway, seems to me that to get at what the myth says means reading it and finding what the words there on the page imply, rather than just insert later Christian’s evaluations and then claim you're being true to the text. There's a problem if you want to believe whatever the scripture itself says, but then apply whatever post hoc crap that Christians have interposed into the tale in later centuries.

And ultimately there’s no reading a story like this without taking it figuratively to some extent, or you derive no universal meaning from it. Because if it’s just literal history then it’s nothing but some mundane details about an alleged past event. To signify more than something like "Joe got up and ate oatmeal for breakfast", it has to have a mythic element to it.
 
Learner, if you choose to believe this it sadly indicates you've given up learning and taken to believing things simply because someone imagines them.
Not at all. It has an explanatory idea close to the text. It also means opening a little more to a wider perspective.

It is entirely possible that all animal life possessed the ability to speak the King's English upon being created in the Garden of Eden. It is equally possible that the universe was created  Last Thursday (or even just 5 minutes ago according to Bertrand Russell) and everything we think we remember are just fake memories implanted in our heads by the trickster god who put us here.
Russell's discription is not unlike the fallen evil trickster of the bible. Reminds me of an interesting movie, "Dark City" but I get your point.
The clear scientific evidence is quite conclusive that no snake species has the cranial capacity for a brain large enough to form the abstract references necessary for speech, nor do any of them have the vocal equipment necessary to produce speech. Additionally, the idea that magic fruit trees can offer the eater instant knowledge of subjects they do not already know or offer eternal youth and immortality have been pretty well quashed under the weight of scientific endeavor.
Perhaps theres some correlation with what is said that humans have reptile brains,so would be true in a sense (I say lightly) I don't know.

The moment one starts magicking problems off the table learning stops and fantasy takes over. Any theory based on magic is immune to falsification and therefore no longer subject to rational evaluation.

Some of us are just fine with that foundation underpinning their understanding of the world. If that's what you desire in your quest for learning so be it. But my advice is that this is not the path to learning, it is the chair of confirmation.

I understand where you're coming from. I need no confirmation ! I do this to find some way to explain/discuss with non believers and anyone else. Perhaps more so because I did the opposite to try and get people to walk away from Christianity. Make amends if you will.
 
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Genesis 3:1 presents the serpent simply as an animal. But how to explain his ability to talk? Some interpreters suggested that at first all animals were able to talk.

So how do we explain this singularly unexplainable thing? Easy, by suggesting a multitude of other similarly unexplainable things. That way, the first unexplainable thing is no longer solitary, which eliminates the problem that it's singular. And since we've now accepted that it was commonplace for animals to talk, it's no longer unexplainable for a serpent to talk. Problem solved.

Another Christian I should give credit to (lost the link) Explained the question of "how on earth could Noah round up all the animals even with a few people at hand?
He pointed out that Noah didn't need to. God comunicates with animals and viceversa.

Hard to picture koala bears swimming from Australia to Mesopotamia with a year's supply of eucalyptus leaves on their backs, no matter how compelling God's command might be.

But hey, If It's In The Bible Then It Must Be True.™
 
Originally Posted by Learner
I and practically everyone (believer or non believer) has always known the serpent in the garden of Eden to be known and referred to as Satan.
The point I was trying to get at was your sweep statement, now bolded above, which is quite obviously very Christian centric and really not a very accurate statement. Why would anyone outside of the Christian and Muslim believers “know this”? Why would a non-Christian think this? Why would a Jew, or a Hindu, or a Buddhist, or a Taoist, or a Sikh think this?

I think we are misunderstanding each other (my fault). "Everyone knows or is reffering" is not the suggestion to believing that Christian belief is true but are aware of what Christians believe in. For example I know /know of as a Christian the Islamic ,Sikh, Hindus and Jewish God or deities.


Why do my in-laws think Jesus comment about ‘two swords being enough’ supports their absolutist gun rights and barely contained violence views? Why were evangelicals the biggest supporters of the invasion of Iraq? Why have evangelicals been the biggest supporter of torture as informational gathering technique over those not hyper religious? Why do so many Christians allow women to teach them? Why don’t Christian parents make sure their daughters all dress like missionary Baptists? Why did Christians fight against slavery in centuries past? Why aren’t all Christians like the pacifist Mennonites & Amish? Why do so many evangelical Christians tout the 10 Commandments, yet ignore the Sabbath? Why do preachers ignore the hordes of gluttony within their pews as they tear into those horrible gays again and again?

Would you be surprised that Jesus would agree with you and be against a lot of what you mention above? He warns us about it. Even I have mentioned somewhere on the forum how odd it is that pastors or priest would bless tanks and warships. It is not the same Christianity as the early church where it was forbidden to go to war. This caused so much problems to the Roman military that many converts in the army were refusing to fight.
About the Sabbath ..thats for another discussion.

Scripture most certainly does end at the Tanakh for Jews. As for us non-theists, only realize there is no cannon.
What can I say as a Christian.
 
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Even I have mentioned somewhere on the forum how odd it is that pastors or priest would bless tanks and warships. It is not the same Christianity as the early church where it was forbidden to go to war.
But it is the same as Christ telling his disciples to bring swords.

The chaplains I've heard are usually very careful not to bless a warship for the sake of fighting a war, but carefully bless the men and woman aboard her. They may mention a hope that the prowess of the military will deter violence, which I believe was the point of swords carried by the disciples. If you look like you can take care of yourself, you will need to take care of yourself less often.

Also, the military is pretty superstitious. So invoking a skybeast that's nominally on your side is useful. Like a lucky rabbit's foot or not wearing red, floppy clothes while walking past the bull's pen.
 
Even if somehow we were wrong and there was a talking snake way back then, it is sickening to think that the omniscient/omnipotent god would punish humans for all eternity for being doubtful of such an idea, and with it doubtful of other claims made by the Christian religion. If someone describes a talking animal, it would make the most sense for you to be skeptical of that claim, and then with it other religious claims made by that person.

*We should not be eternally condemned to Hell for being skeptical and reasonable*

So even if the God made its existence widely known, the last thing I would do is worship such a thing (for this reason, among other moral objections).

Brian

I'll come back to you on that. I'm learning from those who can explain a particular understanding. It may not be so black and white. Evil doers and sinners are not the same is the gist of it,I'll try and see its merits.
 
Even I have mentioned somewhere on the forum how odd it is that pastors or priest would bless tanks and warships. It is not the same Christianity as the early church where it was forbidden to go to war.
But it is the same as Christ telling his disciples to bring swords.

The chaplains I've heard are usually very careful not to bless a warship for the sake of fighting a war, but carefully bless the men and woman aboard her. They may mention a hope that the prowess of the military will deter violence, which I believe was the point of swords carried by the disciples. If you look like you can take care of yourself, you will need to take care of yourself less often.
My take on the swords was Jesus used these swords to symbolize himself as a rebel because there was no real reason to arrest him and now there is. (I think we covered this somewhere) But I don't argue the point the chaplains blessing the crew.

Also, the military is pretty superstitious. So invoking a skybeast that's nominally on your side is useful. Like a lucky rabbit's foot or not wearing red, floppy clothes while walking past the bull's pen.
You maybe right here. Besides It would be difficult for God to hear the prayers of both sides doing the same thing. As with the civil wars . Much like two boxers kneeling down in opposite corners praying. I do wonder what they are praying about.Then again I think they would be undoubtedly decent fellows who were not praying to God to win the fight.
 
The point I was trying to get at was your sweep statement, now bolded above, which is quite obviously very Christian centric and really not a very accurate statement. Why would anyone outside of the Christian and Muslim believers “know this”? Why would a non-Christian think this? Why would a Jew, or a Hindu, or a Buddhist, or a Taoist, or a Sikh think this?

I think we are misunderstanding each other (my fault). "Everyone knows or is reffering" is not the suggestion to believing that Christian belief is true but are aware of what Christians believe in. For example I know /know of as a Christian the Islamic ,Sikh, Hindus and Jewish God or deities.
Ah that is what you were stumbling towards. Yeah, sure enough generally. We are good.

Why do my in-laws think Jesus comment about ‘two swords being enough’ supports their absolutist gun rights and barely contained violence views? Why were evangelicals the biggest supporters of the invasion of Iraq? Why have evangelicals been the biggest supporter of torture as informational gathering technique over those not hyper religious? Why do so many Christians allow women to teach them? Why don’t Christian parents make sure their daughters all dress like missionary Baptists? Why did Christians fight against slavery in centuries past? Why aren’t all Christians like the pacifist Mennonites & Amish? Why do so many evangelical Christians tout the 10 Commandments, yet ignore the Sabbath? Why do preachers ignore the hordes of gluttony within their pews as they tear into those horrible gays again and again?

Would you be surprised that Jesus would agree with you and be against a lot of what you mention above? He warns us about it. Even I have mentioned somewhere on the forum how odd it is that pastors or priest would bless tanks and warships. It is not the same Christianity as the early church where it was forbidden to go to war. This caused so much problems to the Roman military that many converts in the army were refusing to fight.
If (and a huuuuuge IF), the character Jesus came to life out of the pages of the Gospels, I think he would have a particular dislike of modern evangelicals, much as this character wasn't real fond of those pharisees.

About the Sabbath ..thats for another discussion.
Ah, live to die another day :D
 
But it is the same as Christ telling his disciples to bring swords.

The chaplains I've heard are usually very careful not to bless a warship for the sake of fighting a war, but carefully bless the men and woman aboard her. They may mention a hope that the prowess of the military will deter violence, which I believe was the point of swords carried by the disciples. If you look like you can take care of yourself, you will need to take care of yourself less often.
My take on the swords was Jesus used these swords to symbolize himself as a rebel because there was no real reason to arrest him and now there is. (I think we covered this somewhere) But I don't argue the point the chaplains blessing the crew.
I know this recently got covered in the Politics forum (see linky for details), as it is sometimes funny to read non-theists arguing about theological intrepetations. Yeah, I would agree generally with your interpretation...
http://talkfreethought.org/showthre...r-Guns-Guns-Do&p=212851&viewfull=1#post212851
 
Even if somehow we were wrong and there was a talking snake way back then, it is sickening to think that the omniscient/omnipotent god would punish humans for all eternity for being doubtful of such an idea, and with it doubtful of other claims made by the Christian religion. If someone describes a talking animal, it would make the most sense for you to be skeptical of that claim, and then with it other religious claims made by that person.

*We should not be eternally condemned to Hell for being skeptical and reasonable*

So even if the God made its existence widely known, the last thing I would do is worship such a thing (for this reason, among other moral objections).

Brian


I'll come back to you on that. I'm learning from those who can explain a particular understanding. It may not be so black and white. Evil doers and sinners are not the same is the gist of it,I'll try and see its merits.

God does not punish people for being open-minded.
In fact the bible itself invites us to study and test all things.
 
But it is the same as Christ telling his disciples to bring swords.

The chaplains I've heard are usually very careful not to bless a warship for the sake of fighting a war, but carefully bless the men and woman aboard her. They may mention a hope that the prowess of the military will deter violence, which I believe was the point of swords carried by the disciples. If you look like you can take care of yourself, you will need to take care of yourself less often.
My take on the swords was Jesus used these swords to symbolize himself as a rebel because there was no real reason to arrest him and now there is. (I think we covered this somewhere) But I don't argue the point the chaplains blessing the crew...

In actual fact Jesus tells his disciples to take nothing with them.
See Luke 9:3 which is unequivocal.
People who claim the highly ambiguous and enigmatic Luke 22 is proof of Jesus' approval of sword fights need to account for this...

"Put away your sword,” Jesus told him. “Those who use the sword will die by the sword"
 
Yeah but it doesn’t say in the Bible that it’s an historical event. Some Jews and Christians think that it can be both true but not an historical event.

Not being an expert or biblical scholar myself, I would say that people groups of varied nations ,the geographical names of Cities and places mentioned in the bible indicate historical events.(To some degree not quite todays standards)
And, again, that animals talked with people before the world became a fallen and hostile place, with animals and humans fearing one another, is something shared across mythology and fable generally. If there's a truth in any of them, it's not that they're literal events but that they signify something about humanity generally.
Maybe mabe not, but yes there is a main theme across the mythology as you say. gods,dragons,human sacrifices and worshippers. Ancient gods with small g does not conflict with the bible as with the talking animals if we were to include the nephilim that once roamed the earth, God of the bible says he is the one true God. Jesus, Jude and James for example quotes Enoch which should be of some validity to Christians regarding the book of Enoch.

(brb)
 
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