120 Reasons to Reject Christianity

[DBT]

I really don't agee ...

Whether you disagree or not is irrelevant. The god of the tribe of Israel in it its earliest form is portrayed as a god of war, a protector of the tribe which evolves over time into a universal creator.

Are you reffering to the Caananites El and the supposedly lesser deity Yahweh? It is not true this is the same God as the one that created Adam and Eve by Christianity. Parts are true as in Elohim but only in the context of false gods. There is confusion of course with gods, and I don't doubt Christians know or believe this as deliberate corrupted gospel as Jesus warned us about.

The tribe of Israel borrowed and adapted many ideas and myths from surrounding cultures in order to build an identity and culture of their own, Adam and Eve, the flood, Noah, the god's of older cultures, etc.

For example;

''For who in the skies compares to Yahweh, who can be likened to Yahweh among the sons of gods (bênê ’Elîm). Psalm 89:6


When the Most High ['elyon] apportioned the nations, when he divided humankind, he fixed the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God/gods [bene 'elohim]; YHWH’s portion was/is his people, Jacob his allotted share. Deut. 32.8-9 (NRSV)

God ['elohim] has taken his place in the divine council ['adat 'el] in the midst of the gods ['elohim] he holds judgement. Ps. 82.1 (NRSV)

’elohîm ('God') stands in the council of ’el he judges among the gods (elohim). Psalm 82.1


''Yahweh is a warrior. Yahweh is his NAME'' Ex 15:3;

 

[Learner]

Whether you disagree or not is irrelevant. The god of the tribe of Israel in it its earliest form is portrayed as a god of war, a protector of the tribe which evolves over time into a universal creator.

The tribe of Israel had enemies and God of the tribe will understandably be portrayed as a God of war amongst fighting nations. Likewise with the opposing nations and the portrayal of their war gods.

The tribe of Israel borrowed and adapted many ideas and myths from surrounding cultures in order to build an identity and culture of their own, Adam and Eve, the flood, Noah, the god's of older cultures, etc.

For example;

''For who in the skies compares to Yahweh, who can be likened to Yahweh among the sons of gods (bênê ’Elîm). Psalm 89:6

Not disputing with the notion above as it is mentioned in the bible that the Israelites adapted or worshipped other gods like those from the Canaanites. The verse Psalm 89:6 in your post does seem to indicate that Yahweh is but one amongst others like him . It is confusing and misleading understandably. But If it is written as below ;

Psalm 89:6 King James Version : For who in the heaven can be compared unto the Lord? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the Lord?

Here, there is only one Lord ... One "true" God is the obvious understanding. Sons of the mighty are below the status for being gods.

When the Most High ['elyon] apportioned the nations, when he divided humankind, he fixed the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God/gods [bene 'elohim]; YHWH’s portion was/is his people, Jacob his allotted share. Deut. 32.8-9 (NRSV)

Not sure what you mean here with Deut.32.8-9 because further down there is mention of the false lesser gods that came later. As you mentioned; borrowing from others around them.

Deut.32.17 - 21

16They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.

17They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.

18Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.

19And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.

20And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

21They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

’elohîm ('God') stands in the council of ’el he judges among the gods (elohim). Psalm 82.1


''Yahweh is a warrior. Yahweh is his NAME'' Ex 15:3;

Psalm.82.1 is a simlar scenario to Psalm. 89.6 above.

"Yahweh is a warrior Yahweh is his name" This is to me a celebration in song like fashion after defeating the Egyptians. Example " When marvelling at things or by means of being successful after some challenges in the world we say (mainly believers) who is the greatest designer,engineer, artist painter of them all?" and so forth.

 

[Lion IRC]

I really don't agree ...

Whether you disagree or not is irrelevant.

Learner's opinion is no less 'relevant' than your opinion.

The god of the tribe of Israel in it its earliest form is portrayed as a god of war...

No He isn't.
I have a different 'opinion' about how He is portrayed. And you can't just CLAIM that your interpretation is the one true dogma - unless you're a fundy. (Are you?)

 

[Juma]

Whether you disagree or not is irrelevant.

Learner's opinion is no less 'relevant' than your opinion.

...The god of the tribe of Israel in it its earliest form is portrayed as a god of war, a protector of the tribe which evolves over time into a universal creator.

No He isn't.
I have a different 'opinion' about how He is portrayed. And you can't just CLAIM that your interpretation is the one true dogma - unless you're a fundy. (Are you?)

How he is portayed is no opinion. That is a fact. So what are your argument that this fact is not a god of war?

 

[Lion IRC]

I think I can make a strong case (scripturally) that God - the peacemaker - only becomes involved in wars in order to hasten an end to war.

And that (scripturally) it is always humans who start wars, not God.

 

[Lion IRC]

Let's start at he beginning. Who is the first one to shed blood? Cain.

Does God slaughter Cain in revenge?
Does God instigate or support a blood feud?
No!
God emphatically makes clear that nobody should harm this 'marked' protected man.

Why? Because God does not want tribal humans killing each other.

 

[Lion IRC]

Who is next? Lamech?
An apparent descendant of Cain. And a murderer.
Where is this war-like God swooping down and inciting a war?

 

[Lion IRC]

On to Genesis 6.
Where is God's supposed war-like involvement in all the war and killing leading up Genesis 6 - by which time God sees a need for Himself to once again intervene and take action to STOP the rise of violence.

 

[none]

Not sure what the point is

 

[Learner]

No 120 reasons to reject Christianity

 

[Keith&Co.]

No 120 reasons to reject Christianity

Eh.
I have my own problems with Kyroot's 1352 arguments.
But then, even if they're all discarded, i still have no reason to accept Christainity, either.

 

[Learner]

No 120 reasons to reject Christianity

Eh.
I have my own problems with Kyroot's 1352 arguments.
But then, even if they're all discarded, i still have no reason to accept Christainity, either.

Fair enough and I read your early post to Kyroot which was a fair reply for the seriousness of the debate on this thread.

 

[bilby]

Hey! What's all this 'discussion of the OP' nonsense??

I thought we had left that behind about 2,500 posts ago.

 

[Learner]

Quite right ...


so..

On to Genesis 6.
Where is God's supposed war-like involvement in all the war and killing leading up Genesis 6 - by which time God sees a need for Himself to once again intervene and take action to STOP the rise of violence.

So unlike a God of War

Gen:6
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.

 

[Lion IRC]

So God destroys the wickedness and washes things clean with a global Flood to reset the clock. (Because He doesn't like humans murdering and waring against each other.)

What happens then? Does God start a war? Does He incite violence in the hearts of men? No!
Genesis 8 ends with a promise from God and that should be the end of the matter. We should have learned our lesson and put evil out of our heart. And Genesis 9 should be the start of a new chapter beginning - as it does - with a blessing from God upon mankind and a warning against killing.
"Whoever sheds man’s blood, by man his blood shall be shed.
For in the image of God He made man."

...then what comes next? Genesis 12 and a peaceful Abraham being threatened by a violent man who will kill Abraham if he cant take his wife Sarah for his own. (Murder/adultery).

 

[Lion IRC]

...and God knows that this scenario of an evil Pharoah is untenable and will lead to even worse things so God intervenes and Abraham and Sarah are saved.

See the peaceable Abraham resolving potential conflict with Lot the way God wants us to ;

"So Abram said to Lot, “Please let there be no strife between you and me, nor between my herdsmen and your herdsmen, for we are brothers." (Genesis 13:8 NASB)

And they all lived happily ever after? No.

You guessed it ;
"And it came about in the days of Amraphel king of Shinar, Arioch king of Ellasar, Chedorlaomer king of Elam, and Tidal king of Goiim, that they made war with Bera king of Sodom, and with Birsha king of Gomorrah, Shinab king of Admah, and Shemeber king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela (that is, Zoar)"

Watch what happens next.

 

[DBT]

Whether you disagree or not is irrelevant.

Learner's opinion is no less 'relevant' than your opinion.

Not 'my opinion' at all - the verses I quoted (including the body of evidence as a whole) say what they say regardless of what I may think or what you or Learner would like to believe. The history and development of thought and belief in relation to the god of the bible is clear to see. That the writers of the books of the bible borrowed and adapted stories and ideas from surrounding cultures is clear to see in the evidence.

No He isn't.

You ignore all evidence to the contrary in order to make that assertion.

I have a different 'opinion' about how He is portrayed. And you can't just CLAIM that your interpretation is the one true dogma - unless you're a fundy. (Are you?)

It's not a matter of opinion, but what the bible itself says.

This, for example, is not my opinion;

"Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? "
(Lamentations 3:38)

“The Lord is a man of war,” Exodus 15:3.

"The Lord shall go forth as a mighty man, He shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: He shall cry, yea roar; He shall prevail against His enemies". Isaiah 42:13

Like as the lion and the young lion roaring on his prey . . . so
shall the Lord of hosts come down to fight for Mount Zion" Isa. 31:4

 

[Lion IRC]

Nobody is arguing that God doesn't ever take part in war.
When He chooses to do so He is very violent and fearsome.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

[h=1]Jeremiah 31:33[/h] ³³ But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.


--------------------
This seems not to have happened as promised.

 

[Learner]

Not 'my opinion' at all - the verses I quoted (including the body of evidence as a whole) say what they say regardless of what I may think or what you or Learner would like to believe. The history and development of thought and belief in relation to the god of the bible is clear to see. That the writers of the books of the bible borrowed and adapted stories and ideas from surrounding cultures is clear to see in the evidence.

I have replied to your quoted verses a page back.The body of evidence you mentioned is not sound.
http://talkfreethought.org/showthread.php?3071-120-Reasons-to-Reject-Christianity/page263

You ignore all evidence to the contrary in order to make that assertion.

He agrees with me with the same understanding of the evidence mentioned.