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120 Reasons to Reject Christianity

Not if you commit the sin against the Holy Spirit.
We've had threads about this on the old IIDB. Basically, the conclusion was that no one really knows what does 'blaspheming the Holy Spirit' mean. Some more liberal Christians insisted this means that there's really no possibility to commit this kind of sin. No one liked my proposal that this could also mean that anything we do at all can amount to blaspheming the HS because e.g. how does one know opening a banana on the wrong end is not a case of blasphemy of this kind?

I first encountered this in a wonderful book by George Borrow, in which one character is a poor demented man who believes he is condemned to hell forever because he committed this sin; and nobody can convince him otherwise because nobody can figure out what it is supposed to be.
 
The very document (Donation of Constantine) bestowing legitimacy, territory,spiritual and temporal power (and infallibility) to the Popes was a forgery.

All the Popes have knowingly been living a lie for the sake of power.!
http://www.britannica.com/topic/Donation-of-Constantine

When it comes to power grubbing, another document is the infamous Syllabus of Errors.

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9syll.htm

X. ERRORS HAVING REFERENCE TO MODERN LIBERALISM
77. In the present day it is no longer expedient that the Catholic religion should be held as the only religion of the State, to the exclusion of all other forms of worship. -- Allocution "Nemo vestrum," July 26, 1855.
78. Hence it has been wisely decided by law, in some Catholic countries, that persons coming to reside therein shall enjoy the public exercise of their own peculiar worship. -- Allocution "Acerbissimum," Sept. 27, 1852.
79. Moreover, it is false that the civil liberty of every form of worship, and the full power, given to all, of overtly and publicly manifesting any opinions whatsoever and thoughts, conduce more easily to corrupt the morals and minds of the people, and to propagate the pest of indifferentism. -- Allocution "Nunquam fore," Dec. 15, 1856.
80. The Roman Pontiff can, and ought to, reconcile himself, and come to terms with progress, liberalism and modern civilization.- -Allocution "Jamdudum cernimus," March 18, 1861.
 
We've had threads about this on the old IIDB. Basically, the conclusion was that no one really knows what does 'blaspheming the Holy Spirit' mean. Some more liberal Christians insisted this means that there's really no possibility to commit this kind of sin. No one liked my proposal that this could also mean that anything we do at all can amount to blaspheming the HS because e.g. how does one know opening a banana on the wrong end is not a case of blasphemy of this kind?

I first encountered this in a wonderful book by George Borrow, in which one character is a poor demented man who believes he is condemned to hell forever because he committed this sin; and nobody can convince him otherwise because nobody can figure out what it is supposed to be.
Religiouspeak really is its own language, containing words like sin and hell which unlike typical language have no meaning outside the cult understanding. Words like miracle and supernatural and god and grace legitimize their religion because it's as if these things are real now that there are words.

In actuality it's personal ontology at work. If a person thinks magic is real they're going to think gods are real, and magic spells and bogeymen and succubi, and go out there and find their chosen delusion to cherish. Lumpy is one of those. You'd think a person would just say, "Sure, I know people don't fly so these stories are horse dung." But for ontological reasons, most of it unconscious, a person will say it's true because there really are gods and sins. Observing this behavior is nothing short of astonishing, perhaps because it is so surreal.

I think, though, it's worth noting that the vast majority of the religious community go about their lives as if these stories are hokum, the difference being between what they state they believe and their actual behavior 24/7. An observer would conclude they tell stories and engage in certain behaviors occasionally but would conclude they don't try to fly, jump off bridges, or act like their sex organs are anything special, and dismiss the minimum of strange behavior as just an oddity of natural selection, no different than enjoying a movie.
 
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Comparing Jesus Christ to the pagan myths is childish and silly. The difference is obvious.

Horus, Osirus, Perseus, Promethus, Mithras, Hercules, Bacchus.

Each of these epic hero-god myths was around for centuries before their stories were reheated with your favorite hero-god's name inserted in place of their names.

But these are not historical persons, or alleged historical persons, who reportedly did miracle acts. My claim is that the accounts we have of Jesus performing these acts is evidence (not proof) that he did these acts, which indicates that he had super-human power. And there are no other cases of such miracle-workers in history, i.e., actual historical persons, for whom we have evidence.

That's cute, how you dismiss some people as 'historical persons' and accept Jesus as a historical person, for the express purpose of being able say that only Jesus was 'historical,' so you can then establish that he was, therefore, historical, because he's the only person (you'll allow) on the list.

It's just a teensy bit circular, though.

No, it's possible these "pagan" figures were really historical, i.e., Horus, Osirus, Perseus, Promethus, Mithras, Hercules, Bacchus. The best guess is that they were real persons who gradually became mythologized into something superhuman, over many centuries.

But it's more difficult to establish them as historical than it is to establish Jesus as historical, because we have specific information about the historical Jesus, from 40-70 years after he lived. I.e., documents from that period, soon after the events, and which give specific information about him, such as when and where he lived.

But for the pagan figures we don't have this information. And what written record we do have about them is many centuries later than they lived, if they lived at all. So their historicity is less certain than that of Jesus. That should be obvious. Something so elementary as this shouldn't have to be explained.


How would you go about establishing that these stories were made up, not handed down from actual events?

Maybe some of it is NOT "made up" and really did happen. But it's less certain than the Jesus events, for which we have evidence much closer to the actual time that they allegedly happened.

Also, for miracle events, we need evidence much closer to the time they allegedly happened than 1000 years later. And also we need more than only one source from that closer time. Such as we have for the Jesus miracle events, i.e., 4 (5) sources.


I mean, besides just SAYING SO and expecting people on this forum to still be willing to accept your say-so as meaning more than a crap?

So, when do you claim the stories about Horus, Osiris, Perseus, etc., first appeared in the written records which have survived down to us? And when do you claim those events actually happened (if they did happen).

My say-so crap is that those persons (if they were real) probably lived before 2000 BC and that our first record of them is around 500 BC or later. (If this is off by 1 or 2 centuries this way or that, it makes little difference.)

Like the real St. Nicholas lived about 400 AD and our first record of him flying in a sleigh across the sky with his reindeer doesn't appear until more than 1000 years later. Why shouldn't we assume something similar happened in the case of Horus, Osiris, Perseus, etc.?

While by contrast, it's obvious that the Jesus legend cannot have originated this way and so requires a much different explanation.
 
We have as much evidence for the Jesus events as we have for most of the other historical events we believe.

So your evidence that Jesus was a reputed psychic all boils down to one of the literary devices from the myth that has been thoroughly debunked? Hint: The "trial" of Jesus in a Sanhedrin court never happened.

But there was a "trial" which probably involved some members of the Sanhedrin. Maybe it was not an official proceeding.

David Flusser, a Jewish scholar, suggests this possibility:

If, then, there was a session of the Sanhedrin before the crucifixion of Jesus, it must have resembled the arbitrary assembly of distinguished Sadducees who later condemned James, the Lord's brother, to death.

Was it an official assembly of the Sanhedrin that condemned Jesus to death? [The Gospel of] John knew nothing about it, and in the whole of Luke . . . a verdict of the supreme court is not even mentioned. Mark was the first to alter the ancient report.

David Flusser, Jesus, Hebrew University Magnes Press, 2001; p. 146

Flusser seems to blame the Mark account for the problems of the trial account. He seems to mean a later redactor, not an early Mark, who relied on "the ancient report" and altered it.

Flusser: He attempted to portray a session of the judiciary passing judgment. Matthew subsequently based his account upon Mark.

And Flusser gives more credibility to the Luke and John accounts. Where the events described are incompatible with what is known about the procedures of the official Sanhedrin, it was the Mark account, and reliance on it, that is to blame.


Atheos:
  • Error #1: The Sanhedrin convened at the high priest's house
    Mark mentioned that the Sanhedrin met in the house of the high priest while all our other sources on the Sanhedrin tells us that the council does not convene anywhere else except in the Chamber of the Hewn Stone in the Temple. [5]
  • Error #2: The Sanhedrin met at night
    The Sanhedrin was said to have convened immediately after Jesus was arrested and taken to the high priest's house. This was after the Passover supper and the prayer at Gethsemane which makes the council meet around 9 to 10pm at night. This is again incompatible with what we know of the procedures of the Sanhedrin which disallows nocturnal meetings. [6]
  • Error #3: The Sanhedrin conveyed on the Passover
    To add to the absurdity, this night, if we are to believe the synoptic chronology, was Passover eve and by Jewish reckoning already the 15th of Nisan, Passover itself. As many eminent Jewish scholars have pointed out, this is simply inconceivable, given the strict ruling of no council meetings on the Sabbath, and on religious feast days, such as the Passover. [7] We quote the Jewish scholar, Joseph Klausner from his book Jesus of Nazareth (New York 1925):
    the Sadducees themselves would not have conducted even a simple judicial inquiry either on the night of the Passover or the first day of the Passover...the mishnah lays it down that capital cases may not be judged on the eve of a Sabbath or on the eve of a festival to avoid delay should the case not be finished that day, since all trials were forbidden on a Sabbath or a festival. [8]
  • Error #4: The Sanhedrin pronounced the death sentence immediately
    Another procedural impossibility is given in Mark 14:64 which includes the sentence: they all condemned him as worthy of death. This means that the sentence was passed on the same day instead of the prescribed interval of twenty four hours. These procedural flaws in the Markan account weighs heavily against any claims of historicity for the episode described there.

... the high priest's assertion (Mark 14:64) that Jesus committed blasphemy in his reply (Mark 14:62-63) makes no sense. It was not an offence for a Jew to claim to be the messiah because eventually, according to their belief, someone has got to be he. It is no blasphemy, though of course it could be a mistake, in claiming the title of messiah for oneself. [12] The claim Jesus made, as being seated at the right hand of God does not necessarily have any divine connotation for himself, as the Jewish scholar Rabbi Morris Goldstein stated:


Use of the phrase "Son of the Blessed" or "Son of God" was no capital crime. The reference to sitting at the right hand of power (Mark 14:62) is not greatly different from King David's allusion to himself sitting at the right hand of God (Psalms 110:1), at all events, it is nowhere indicated as blasphemy.


Flusser explains how an illegal meeting of the Sanhedrin might take place:

In 62 A.D., the Sadducean high priest, Annas [Ananus], convened a session of the Sanhedrin at which the Lord's brother James and other Christians were indicted before the judges, and condemned to be stoned. The Pharisees engineered the deposition of Annas, because in their opinion, the session had been illegal . . .

Here is the Josephus account of this:

. . . but this younger Ananus, who, as we have told you already, took the high priesthood, was a bold man in his temper, and very insolent; he was also of the sect of the Sadducees, who are very rigid in judging offenders, above all the rest of the Jews, as we have already observed; . . . he brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned; but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done; they also sent to the king [Agrippa], desiring him to send to Ananus that he should act so no more, for that what he had already done was not to be justified; nay, some of them went also to meet Albinus . . . and informed him that it was not lawful for Ananus to assemble a sanhedrin without his consent; whereupon Albinus complied with what they said, and wrote in anger to Ananus, and threatened that he would bring him to punishment for what he had done; on which king Agrippa took the high priesthood from him, . . .
Antiquities, Book 20, ch. 9, 199-203

One further point to add to this picture, helping to explain reasonably what happened -- This is from a speech by a 7th-Day-Adventist lawyer, Lewis Walton, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9D46yW4ym0 , which seems to have the ring of truth on this one point, even if not on others, and that is that the rules of the Sanhedrin were such that it was very difficult to get a conviction in a death-penalty case, and the members of the Sanhedrin had a strong responsibility to defend the accused and to disallow false evidence or improper charges. And the only accusers or prosecutors were those of the public who attended and made charges, while the court per se provided only defense and not prosecutors. (Someone will correct this if it's not accurate.)

So a reasonable explanation about this "trial" which violated the rules is that there was ambiguity for the Sadducees who made up the Sanhedrin: Josephus says they were tough on the accused (the Josephus account above), and yet, the rules of the Sanhedrin were favorable to the accused and made it difficult to convict.

So doesn't it seem credible that other "trials" like that of James may have occurred? Isn't this the best explanation of what happened to Jesus? I.e., because the rules of the Sanhedrin were so favorable to the accused, in some cases a sham "trial" was held which violated the procedural rules and made it easier to get a "conviction."


As to the reports that members of the Sanhedrin spat on Jesus and struck him, this is just as incredible in the proceedings of that highly dignified body as if it were reported of the high court of England or the supreme court of the United States.

The scenes of the physical abuse don't say it was members of the Sanhedrin who did this, though you can easily interpret the Mt and Mk accounts that way. But it was probably the soldiers or guards who did it.

Flusser accepts it as a genuine description of the behavior of the guards, though he tries to interpret it as some kind of game that might have been played with prisoners generally. But he makes a poor case for this. The word "Prophesy" almost certainly means something that involves using psychic power, or power from a divine source, but Flusser was able to find one obscure use of the word "prophesy" which might have the meaning of "guessing" rather than that of making a pronouncement using paranormal or divine power.

But Flusser accepts that the scene did take place. And also that the "trial" did take place but that it was not an official session of the Sanhedrin. This makes much more sense than discarding the entire trial of Jesus as fiction.

Here is an explanation of the scene from David Strauss:

. . . and blows on the head and cheek, to which it is added, in Luke also, that he was blindfolded, then struck on the face, and scoffingly asked to attest his messianic second sight by telling who was the giver of the blow.
David Strauss, The Life of Jesus Critically Examined, p. 657.

The footnote to this tries to explain the meaning of the Matthew version which omits the blindfold:

Matthew does not mention the blindfolding, and appears to imagine that Jesus named the person who maltreated him, whom he saw, but did not otherwise know.

Here, the meaning of "Prophesy!" is taken in the sense of showing supernormal power, but since the blindfold is omitted, Strauss takes it to mean that Jesus named to them the one who struck him, even though he didn't know that person. This is really a stretch -- a desperate attempt to make sense of the words "Prophesy! Who is it that struck you?"

This shows the difficulty of making sense of the words when an important element is omitted. But the problem is solved by recognizing that it was an actual incident and that the witnesses who reported it left part of it out. What else better explains this scene?


Originally Posted by Lumpenproletariat
This shows the difficulty of making sense of the words when an important element is omitted. But the problem is solved by recognizing that it was an actual incident and that the witnesses who reported it left part of it out. What else better explains this scene?

We don't have witness reports.

We don't have such reports for virtually ALL of our historical facts before 1000 AD. Again, you keep criticizing the gospel accounts for being the same kind of evidence we have for virtually ALL our history of the period.

My point above was that the gospel writers/editors must have been relying on earlier reports and were not "making up" anything in this incident. Each one (or at least Mt and Mk) left something out of the picture which would have explained what happened in this incident. By omitting an important element, they give us an account which in itself does not make sense. But they simply gave us what was in their sources.

Their incomplete accounts are best explained as being derived from earlier sources, and each writer/editor was lacking an element in his sources which would have made the account complete, so it would make sense. How did they have these earlier sources which alone did not tell the complete story? Isn't the best explanation that these earlier sources originated from eye witnesses who each saw or heard something, but also missed part of what happened, and so passed on only the part they witnessed?

So it's best explained as having originated from direct witnesses to the event.


We have accounts of alleged events that were written years after they were supposed to have occurred.

The same as the accounts we have for virtually ALL our historical record before 1000 AD. Yet, what we do have was based on earlier reports, most of which were derived from original witnessed accounts, probably oral at first.

Most of the Jesus events fit this description, as with virtually all the other historical events or accounts which we believe. It began with real events, witnessed and reported and passed on until they were finally written down. That's the most we can hope for.


And as we know, it is hard to determine the details of an event that happened months, weeks or even days ago.

But we get the general picture of what happened, just as for all other historical events. We can question "the details" of virtually all the events in the historical record. Some of those details are not accurate. We make the best of what we have. Those who insist the gospel accounts are accurate in every detail are not to be taken seriously. One can believe in Christ without being enslaved to every word in those accounts. Just as we can believe the historical record generally.


Another difficulty is that accurate reporting was not really a top priority in ancient times.

Debatable. But if so, it shows the difficulty of believing ANY of the historical record in reporting those events. And yet there's much of it that we can reasonably believe.


Embellishing events for the sake of promoting one's religion was most probably not frowned upon.

Also for the sake of one's political aims. Yet this doesn't mean the accounts should not be believed. Critical judgment is exercised with all the historical sources, including the gospel accounts, and with this we can determine what happened, generally.


The Gospel accounts cannot be taken as accurate and reliable report of the events they describe.

They can be taken as accurate and reliable just as much as most other sources. There's no basis for cutting out this one source only with your censorship scissors and tossing it into the fire based only on prejudice.

It's fine to apply extra critical judgment to these accounts, because of the miracle stories, and requiring extra sources instead of only one, which extra sources we do have for the Jesus events. There's a vast amount of history which we accept based on less evidence than we have for the Jesus events.
 
Originally Posted by Lumpenproletariat
This shows the difficulty of making sense of the words when an important element is omitted. But the problem is solved by recognizing that it was an actual incident and that the witnesses who reported it left part of it out. What else better explains this scene?

We don't have witness reports.

We don't have such reports for virtually ALL of our historical facts before 1000 AD. Again, you keep criticizing the gospel accounts for being the same kind of evidence we have for virtually ALL our history of the period.

You made mention of witnesses. I was responding to the reference ''witnesses who reported it.''

My point above was that the gospel writers/editors must have been relying on earlier reports and were not "making up" anything in this incident. Each one (or at least Mt and Mk) left something out of the picture which would have explained what happened in this incident. By omitting an important element, they give us an account which in itself does not make sense. But they simply gave us what was in their sources.

That is not the same as having ''witnesses who reported it.'' We have no such thing. What we have is an authors narrative relating to an oral tradition/account of events which may make mention of witnesses, ''witnesses'' who may or may not have existed, but if present at the time may have been mistaken or mislead.
 
The gospel writers/editors relied on EARLIER SOURCES and did not "make up" the stories.

Originally Posted by Lumpenproletariat
This shows the difficulty of making sense of the words when an important element is omitted. But the problem is solved by recognizing that it was an actual incident and that the witnesses who reported it left part of it out. What else better explains this scene?

We don't have witness reports.

We don't have such reports for virtually ALL of our historical facts before 1000 AD. Again, you keep criticizing the gospel accounts for being the same kind of evidence we have for virtually ALL our history of the period.

You made mention of witnesses. I was responding to the reference ''witnesses who reported it.''

My point above was that the gospel writers/editors must have been relying on earlier reports and were not "making up" anything in this incident. Each one (or at least Mt and Mk) left something out of the picture which would have explained what happened in this incident. By omitting an important element, they give us an account which in itself does not make sense. But they simply gave us what was in their sources.

That is not the same as having ''witnesses who reported it.''

What they had was SOURCES, and we don't know if any of these were "witnesses."


We have no such thing.

What WE TODAY have are the final accounts from the writers/editors who had earlier SOURCES. I.e., written or oral reports. Not necessarily direct witness reports. We don't know what direct witnesses they had, if any. But those sources, originating from something earlier, if they were not direct witnesses, had something which derived from original direct witnesses, from back at the actual events.

Not that we KNOW this for a fact, proven beyond all doubt, but rather, this best explains why we have a report here of an incident which is INCOMPLETE in each of the 3 accounts (or the Mt and Mk accounts).

I.e., we have an anomaly of 2 (3) accounts each of which is incomplete, or does not make sense by itself. And yet it's reported, because this writer/editor had these sources before him and he reported it, so he DID NOT MAKE IT UP, but reported what he had in his limited sources.

And this is best explained if these sources originated from direct witnesses back when the original event happened. So I'm giving a reason to believe the reported incident is derived from an actual event, because this can explain why we have 2 (3) stories which are each incomplete. I.e., the final writer/redactor would not make up an INcomplete story.


What we have is an author's narrative relating to an oral tradition/account of events . . .

Possibly written. Probably both oral and written. And this narrative is BASED ON EARLIER SOURCES the author had before him. He did not "make up" his narrative, the details of it, but rather based it on the sources he had.

. . . which may make mention of witnesses, ''witnesses'' who may or may not have existed, but if present at the time may have been mistaken or misled.

Of course, as with ALL events reported in the history of that time. So the gospel accounts are no more or less reliable than most other accounts we rely on for our knowledge of those historical events.

Fine, we agree.
 
If you could just produce these "sources" then we could be certain they had sources. Then you'd simply have to provide evidence that these "sources" were reliable as well. That's a pretty tall order considering the non-negotiable requirement that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. People who believe every extraordinary claim made by an anonymous and questionable source are the reason we have thousands upon thousands of hoaxes listed on Snopes.com and growing every day. Not to mention the fact that people who are willing believe extraordinary claims made by questionable sources uncorroborated by equally extraordinary evidence is the reason we have religions.

Of course, as with ALL events reported in the history of that time. So the gospel accounts are no more or less reliable than most other accounts we rely on for our knowledge of those historical events.

Fine, we agree.

For the umpteenth time, here's how it works:

Some Anonymous Person said:
I have a brother named Bill.

This is a mundane claim that most people can accept without corroboration. This is analogous to the 99% of history we accept because of uncorroborated written testimony.

Some Anonymous Person said:
My brother Bill is the world's tallest man. He stands 24 feet 7 3/8 inches.

This is not a mundane claim, and it wouldn't matter if it was written today, 10 years ago or 2000 years ago, just reading it on a piece of paper would not be enough for anyone sensible to believe it. Seeing the claim parroted 20 times in later renditions of the same story wouldn't help either.

As we have said over and over again: The Jesus myth is a sequence of extremely extraordinary claims that are corroborated only by the single most atrocious form of evidence - anonymous stories. Anonymous stories are enough for us to believe someone had a brother named Bill. Anonymous stories are never going to be enough for reasonable people to believe a man can fly like Superman.

Take away the flying like Superman, walking on water like Poseidon, healing people like Aesclepius, etc., and I could buy that an itinerant preacher named Jesus may have been a faith-healer similar to thousands roaming the planet today; that he pissed off some religious leaders of his day and managed to get his ass crucified. I could buy that his followers exaggerated claims about the nature of the "miracles" he performed over several decades until we ended up with the incredible feats of magic reported in GMark. You don't want to buy that version for obvious reasons. But what you cannot do is demonstrate that this very plausible scenario did not, in fact, happen. You can also not demonstrate that the scenario of "the miracles happened exactly as described" is more plausible than "stories of his miracles have been greatly exaggerated."

But you can't even get past step 1: There is no evidence Jesus ever existed. The entire story could have been made up from whole cloth. It could be exactly like the story of Superman, telling the enthralling tale of an extraordinary individual who never actually existed.
 
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Of course, as with ALL events reported in the history of that time. So the gospel accounts are no more or less reliable than most other accounts we rely on for our knowledge of those historical events.

Fine, we agree.
Do you keep pretending this is true to make your favorite myth stories seem possible or do you really not understand the differences between
a claim that Julius Caesar existed and exerted political power over a people that left evidence of their existence,
and
a claim that Jesus rose after he died and flew up into the sky?
 
I wanna know what "sources" the NT writers had for Jesus' words to the Sanhedrin...Jesus' pow-wow with Pilate, which was by the sound of it a private consultation...the "Magnificat" (right, some hillbilly woman is spouting poetry about her pregnancy and it gets recorded 60 years later)...stuff Jesus said or things he did when the disciples fell asleep on the last night. I'm sure there's a Bible code somewhere and I can read every 17th or 33rd letter to find the mysterious answer.
 
I wanna know what "sources" the NT writers had for Jesus' words to the Sanhedrin...Jesus' pow-wow with Pilate, which was by the sound of it a private consultation...the "Magnificat" (right, some hillbilly woman is spouting poetry about her pregnancy and it gets recorded 60 years later)...stuff Jesus said or things he did when the disciples fell asleep on the last night. I'm sure there's a Bible code somewhere and I can read every 17th or 33rd letter to find the mysterious answer.
Those gods do work in mysterious ways.
 
Of course, as with ALL events reported in the history of that time. So the gospel accounts are no more or less reliable than most other accounts we rely on for our knowledge of those historical events.

Fine, we agree.
Do you keep pretending this is true to make your favorite myth stories seem possible or do you really not understand the differences between
a claim that Julius Caesar existed and exerted political power over a people that left evidence of their existence,
and
a claim that Jesus rose after he died and flew up into the sky?

This has been pointed out to Lumpy many times. Lumpy makes no distinction between his favorite supernatural claims (Jesus' corpse rising up from the dead and flying into the sky) from events that are not prohibited by the laws of the universe (Caesar conquering Gaul). I am certain that Lumpy understands the distinction, but is unwilling to acknowledge it because it undermines the premise of his argument that modern historians routinely accept historical accounts of supernatural events as fact. Lumpy's behavior is dishonest, and he cannot be shamed into honesty.
 
I wanna know what "sources" the NT writers had for Jesus' words to the Sanhedrin...Jesus' pow-wow with Pilate, which was by the sound of it a private consultation...the "Magnificat" (right, some hillbilly woman is spouting poetry about her pregnancy and it gets recorded 60 years later)...stuff Jesus said or things he did when the disciples fell asleep on the last night. I'm sure there's a Bible code somewhere and I can read every 17th or 33rd letter to find the mysterious answer.

There are no sources. Lumpy is making up shit as usual. Apparently that sort of behavior is ok when you are trying to defend the divinity of Christ.
 
I wanna know what "sources" the NT writers had for Jesus' words to the Sanhedrin...Jesus' pow-wow with Pilate, which was by the sound of it a private consultation...the "Magnificat" (right, some hillbilly woman is spouting poetry about her pregnancy and it gets recorded 60 years later)...stuff Jesus said or things he did when the disciples fell asleep on the last night. I'm sure there's a Bible code somewhere and I can read every 17th or 33rd letter to find the mysterious answer.

There are no sources. Lumpy is making up shit as usual. Apparently that sort of behavior is ok when you are trying to defend the divinity of Christ.

Yes, "lying for Jesus" has been officially blessed. Those who do are granted special dispensation for any of their faults, guaranteeing them a seat on the dais next to Jesus in heaven.
 
I wanna know what "sources" the NT writers had for Jesus' words to the Sanhedrin...Jesus' pow-wow with Pilate, which was by the sound of it a private consultation...the "Magnificat" (right, some hillbilly woman is spouting poetry about her pregnancy and it gets recorded 60 years later)...stuff Jesus said or things he did when the disciples fell asleep on the last night. I'm sure there's a Bible code somewhere and I can read every 17th or 33rd letter to find the mysterious answer.

And many more (jesus alone in the desert, etc.).

The most plausible explanation is that authors of fiction do stuff like this all the time.
 
Lumpenproletariat logic:

You claim to have a car in your garage.

I claim to have a dragon in my garage.

There is no evidence whatsoever for either claim.

Therefore both claims have exactly the same evidence.

Therefore both claims are exactly as plausible as each other.

Lots of people have cars in their garages.

Your claim is therefore highly plausible.

My claim is therefore also highly plausible.

Therefore you would be an idiot NOT to believe that I have a dragon in my garage.
 
Yeah, but it would be INCONCEIVABLE that the dragon is invisible :cheeky: Other than that, the logic seems impenetrable...
 
You claim to have a car in your garage.

I claim to have a dragon in my garage.
And while people may claim to have a Lamborghini in their garage, or a Sherman tank, or a 1:10,000th scale model of the Death Star made of Legos, which usually turn out to be lies, you're the ONLY one claiming to have a dragin on your garage. Thus, your claim is much more credible than lies which may SEEM similar but don't stand up to scrutiny.
 
You claim to have a car in your garage.

I claim to have a dragon in my garage.
And while people may claim to have a Lamborghini in their garage, or a Sherman tank, or a 1:10,000th scale model of the Death Star made of Legos, which usually turn out to be lies, you're the ONLY one claiming to have a dragin on your garage. Thus, your claim is much more credible than lies which may SEEM similar but don't stand up to scrutiny.

Exactly.
 
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