16 Nobel Prize Winning Economists Warn Trump Will Ruin Economy

[barbos]

Russia has similar problem with people from Central Asia. But they are relatively liberal, anyone who wants to come for work can do so legally.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Punish employers who are found to have employees who are not permitted to work.

It's really not that difficult.

Start handing out $10K fines, per illegal hiring, and you'd see huge changes to the USA immigration policy.

Tom

The funny thing is that Illegals being "illegal" gives employers that hire them leverage to depress wages.

 

[TomC]

Punish employers who are found to have employees who are not permitted to work.

It's really not that difficult.

Start handing out $10K fines, per illegal hiring, and you'd see huge changes to the USA immigration policy.

Tom

The funny thing is that Illegals being "illegal" gives employers that hire them leverage to depress wages.

Depressed wages and they keep consumption/prices up. It's not like they get a discount at the store or gas station.
What's not to like, if you're a member of the investor class.
Ya know, the people who can to buy Congress critters. Any surprise that they just can't come up with immigration reform that's effective and humane?
Tom

 

[RVonse]

Punish employers who are found to have employees who are not permitted to work.

It's really not that difficult.

Start handing out $10K fines, per illegal hiring, and you'd see huge changes to the USA immigration policy.

Tom

The funny thing is that Illegals being "illegal" gives employers that hire them leverage to depress wages.

Depressed wages and they keep consumption/prices up. It's not like they get a discount at the store or gas station.
What's not to like, if you're a member of the investor class.
Ya know, the people who can to buy Congress critters. Any surprise that they just can't come up with immigration reform that's effective and humane?
Tom

No surprise at all.

But it is certainly worth noting that even though the uni parties will never do anything effective, there is at least one party that is admitting there is a problem needing immediate attention to be fixed. And that party is NOT the democrats.

You can not fix a problem until you get your head out of the ground.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Punish employers who are found to have employees who are not permitted to work.

It's really not that difficult.

Start handing out $10K fines, per illegal hiring, and you'd see huge changes to the USA immigration policy.

Tom

The funny thing is that Illegals being "illegal" gives employers that hire them leverage to depress wages.

Depressed wages and they keep consumption/prices up. It's not like they get a discount at the store or gas station.
What's not to like, if you're a member of the investor class.
Ya know, the people who can to buy Congress critters. Any surprise that they just can't come up with immigration reform that's effective and humane?
Tom

No surprise at all.

But it is certainly worth noting that even though the uni parties will never do anything effective, there is at least one party that is admitting there is a problem needing immediate attention to be fixed. And that party is NOT the democrats.

You can not fix a problem until you get your head out of the ground.

Okay. Please tell me what the republican party is doing about the problem? (As an aside, what the hell has the republican congress done in the last two years?)

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Punish employers who are found to have employees who are not permitted to work.

It's really not that difficult.

Start handing out $10K fines, per illegal hiring, and you'd see huge changes to the USA immigration policy.

Tom

The funny thing is that Illegals being "illegal" gives employers that hire them leverage to depress wages.

Depressed wages and they keep consumption/prices up. It's not like they get a discount at the store or gas station.
What's not to like, if you're a member of the investor class.
Ya know, the people who can to buy Congress critters. Any surprise that they just can't come up with immigration reform that's effective and humane?
Tom

No surprise at all.

But it is certainly worth noting that even though the uni parties will never do anything effective, there is at least one party that is admitting there is a problem needing immediate attention to be fixed. And that party is NOT the democrats.

You can not fix a problem until you get your head out of the ground.

The Republicans signed off on a massive corporate stock buyback tax cut. The Dems and GOP were complicit in sending off our manufacturing overseas. The GOP want to get rid of minimum wages and unions.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Russia has similar problem with people from Central Asia. But they are relatively liberal, anyone who wants to come for work can do so legally.

And why do you think that Russia is allowing migrants to move to Russia to work? So that they can Shanghai them:

Russia rounds up thousands of migrants to send to Ukraine war: Reports

Russian media outlets report authorities enlisted migrants detained on New Year's Eve into the military.

www.newsweek.com

 

[Elixir]

Russia has similar problem with people from Central Asia. But they are relatively liberal, anyone who wants to come for work can do so legally.

And why do you think that Russia is allowing migrants to move to Russia to work? So that they can Shanghai them:

Russia rounds up thousands of migrants to send to Ukraine war: Reports

Russian media outlets report authorities enlisted migrants detained on New Year's Eve into the military.

www.newsweek.com

Yeah, relying on cannon fodder requires … cannon fodder. Migrants, NK’s undesirables and whoever they can arrest for petty crimes - they all get to go get shot at.
It’s easy to see how their lack of motivation has afflicted Russian military ops.

 

[ZiprHead]

Punish employers who are found to have employees who are not permitted to work.

It's really not that difficult.

Start handing out $10K fines, per illegal hiring, and you'd see huge changes to the USA immigration policy.

Tom

The funny thing is that Illegals being "illegal" gives employers that hire them leverage to depress wages.

Depressed wages and they keep consumption/prices up. It's not like they get a discount at the store or gas station.
What's not to like, if you're a member of the investor class.
Ya know, the people who can to buy Congress critters. Any surprise that they just can't come up with immigration reform that's effective and humane?
Tom

No surprise at all.

But it is certainly worth noting that even though the uni parties will never do anything effective, there is at least one party that is admitting there is a problem needing immediate attention to be fixed. And that party is NOT the democrats.

You can not fix a problem until you get your head out of the ground.

Okay. Please tell me what the republican party is doing about the problem? (As an aside, what the hell has the republican congress done in the last two years?)

What has the Republican party EVER done (since Reagan) for the little guy?

 

[TomC]

You can not fix a problem until you get your head out of the ground.

The problem is that US citizens will give jobs by the millions, but not documents.

We've had waves of immigrants before and that's what Made America Great.
Tom

 

[ZiprHead]

Just announced today that border crossings are at the lowest they've been in three years.

 

[thebeave]

Just announced today that border crossings are at the lowest they've been in three years.

Do the Democrats think that's a good thing or a bad thing? Or a "don't care"? I can never remember.

 

[TomC]

Just announced today that border crossings are at the lowest they've been in three years.

Do the Congress critters think that's a good thing or a bad thing? Or a "don't care"? I can never remember.

Fixed your post.

My belief is that they don't care as long as the gravy keeps flowing.
Tom

 

[Elixir]

Just announced today that border crossings are at the lowest they've been in three years.

Do the Democrats think that's a good thing or a bad thing? Or a "don't care"? I can never remember.

Nobody cares. "Border crisis" is a useful tool for a lot of people in a lot of different ways. It might be a bad thing for the few people whose family member is murdered by an "illegal", but most everyone else is busy scrimping to afford some chicken, or making bank off people scrimping to afford some chicken.

 

[thebeave]

Just announced today that border crossings are at the lowest they've been in three years.

Do the Democrats think that's a good thing or a bad thing? Or a "don't care"? I can never remember.

Nobody cares. "Border crisis" is a useful tool for a lot of people in a lot of different ways. It might be a bad thing for the few people whose family member is murdered by an "illegal", but most everyone else is busy scrimping to afford some chicken, or making bank off people scrimping to afford some chicken.

So, then why is Biden even bothering with the border and why is Ziprhead announcing such yawn worthy "breaking news"?

Plus, I thought it was racist to try to keep brown skinned people from crossing the border into the US. Or maybe I missed the memo declaring that its no longer racist.

 

[laughing dog]

Punish employers who are found to have employees who are not permitted to work.

It's really not that difficult.

Start handing out $10K fines, per illegal hiring, and you'd see huge changes to the USA immigration policy.

Tom

The funny thing is that Illegals being "illegal" gives employers that hire them leverage to depress wages.

Depressed wages and they keep consumption/prices up. It's not like they get a discount at the store or gas station.
What's not to like, if you're a member of the investor class.
Ya know, the people who can to buy Congress critters. Any surprise that they just can't come up with immigration reform that's effective and humane?
Tom

No surprise at all.

But it is certainly worth noting that even though the uni parties will never do anything effective, there is at least one party that is admitting there is a problem needing immediate attention to be fixed. And that party is NOT the democrats.

You can not fix a problem until you get your head out of the ground.

The Democrats agreed to a bipartisan compromise that was scuttled by Trump which indicates your analysis is not grounded in reality.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Until we solve identity theft there's not much that can be done about illegals.

That's nonsense.

What's your proposal that will actually work?

Punish employers who are found to have employees who are not permitted to work.

Don't knock it until you've tried it - I know that you believe that it wouldn't work, but basing policy on belief is stupid.

The problem is not that I think it wouldn't work, but that I think it would make a bigger problem.

Instead of working under a completely fictitious identity they'll work under a stolen one.

That's slanderous nonsense.

Slanderous?? Who in the world am I supposedly slandering?

What, you think that your assuming that all undocumented workers will turn to identity theft at the drop of a hat diesn't slander undocumented workers as a class?

They're already working illegally. Making them resort to identity theft isn't really changing it for them all that much.

The ones that knowingly hire illegals are small, they don't add up to all that many jobs.

And that is one of the least accurate clams in the history of the Internet. There are estimated to be over seven million non-citizens working in the USA without the lawful right to do so.

Try again, your argument doesn't say what you think it says. There are three categories of illegals:

It doesn't matter a whit to my argument how many "categories" you wish to invent.

My point is that your 7 million number includes a bunch that won't be caught by what you are asking for.

None of which changes the fact that the ONLY way they could not know that they are employing people without the right to work, is that they don't WANT to know.

Hiding behind 'plausible deniability' is bullshit; A clerk who sells liquor to a twelve year old with a fake ID does so not because he believes the customer to be twenty one, but because he believes that the fake ID covers his arse when he is brought to book for his actions.

They can suspect. But if you ask them to quit hiring those they suspect of being illegal you're going to cause big problems for legal immigrants. Especially those who do not yet have their final documentation with the anti-tamper stuff.

I put the woman at my former employer into brain freeze this way. At the time it was one from column A (suitable indications of identity), one from column B (suitable indications of work permission). I've used my social security card a few times in my life, I've used my passport dozens of times. Of course I provided the document that was more readily at hand. It's right there in column A and it's right there in column B. "But it doesn't have your social security number"--yeah, but note it is in column B. "But you have to have two documents"--no. Since then the form has been reworked multiple times, now I see there's a column A that lists things which are both ID and work permission (passport is right at the top of the list), or one from B (identity) and one from C (permission.)

A fascinating, if irrelevant and byzantine, anecdote. Thanks so much for sharing.

The point was to illustrate the level of skill (lack thereof) of an awful lot of people doing the document checks.

3) If you're an independent contractor there's no document check whatsoever. You simply fill out a form, that's it.

Documents are a smokescreen. The employers of illegal workers know. The documents exist to give them an excuse to pretend not to know. And you and I both know this.

How do they know?

Is my wife with a foreign passport, a social security card that says "not valid for employment" and a letter from immigration allowed to work or not? There's absolutely no anti-tamper in either the social security card or the letter. The former would be trivial to duplicate if you had suitable paper. The latter was on ordinary paper. During that period she never worked for a place bigger than maybe 30 people, probably no more than 20. Considerably smaller that the place I put the HR person into brain freeze. You think they're familiar with what the documentation should look like?! Especially since most of that time we were in small town USA.

It includes every single last one of them. And rightly so.

If a person is found working unlawfully, he is arrested and deported. He may also face other punishments.

If a person is found employing an unlawful worker, he suffers zero punishment of any kind.

Then why is the owner of the duck place in jail?

Of course, if the worker in question has a convincing but fake set of documents, the situation is totally different. In that case, the worker is arrested and deported, and may also face other punishments; While the employer suffers zero punishment of any kind.

Until the employers face non-trivial sanction, the number of unlawfully employed persons will not fall. As soon as they do, it will fall precipitously.

The problem is that you haven't shown how to avoid throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Your position, that Americans should not face punishment for breaking the law, if they can pretend to have made a cursory effort to avoid breaking the law, is quite possibly reasonable; But if so it should be applied equally to their employees. If the immigration department won't accept the worker's ID, then nor should their employer have.

If you get fined despite having done a document check, then you will learn to check more carefully next time.

If you fine them after they made a reasonable effort you'll ensure in the future that they're not going to bother with the document check, just not hire anyone who seems to be an immigrant.

Look at the rules for alcohol sales. Don't check, they get busted. They're not expected to catch good fakes, though.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Until we solve identity theft there's not much that can be done about illegals.

Instead of working under a completely fictitious identity they'll work under a stolen one.

Really? I remember that in the early 1990's a decree went out from Caesar Williamus that all the employees would be checked. Supposedly -- and this actually happened where I was employed -- everyone was required to present a birth certificate! (I don't remember if passport could be substituted.)

How many undocumented workers actually have valid-looking U.S. birth certificates?

My wife is a US citizen. She does not have anything that resembles a US birth certificate.

For that matter, she doesn't really have a birth certificate at all. The document we provided amounted to an official statement that this is what the records say.

The ones that knowingly hire illegals are small, they don't add up to all that many jobs.

Cite? I think most employers of very low-wage workers are either aware, or deliberately try to avoid becoming aware.

The thing is only the very small places can actually hope to get away with hiring under the table.

 

[barbos]

Russia has similar problem with people from Central Asia. But they are relatively liberal, anyone who wants to come for work can do so legally.

And why do you think that Russia is allowing migrants to move to Russia to work? So that they can Shanghai them:

Russia rounds up thousands of migrants to send to Ukraine war: Reports

Russian media outlets report authorities enlisted migrants detained on New Year's Eve into the military.

www.newsweek.com

These are not migrants, they have russian citizenship. They were merely registered in Voenkomats.
That being said, your beloved Elensky did try to send foreign students to the battle.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No surprise at all.

But it is certainly worth noting that even though the uni parties will never do anything effective, there is at least one party that is admitting there is a problem needing immediate attention to be fixed. And that party is NOT the democrats.

You can not fix a problem until you get your head out of the ground.

What you don't understand is that it's one party making stupid noise about it while blocking efforts to actually do anything.

Most of the people aren't sneaking across the border in the first place, no possible fence can stop those who don't cross the fence in the first place.

And in practice fences are far easier to cut than to build.