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2020 Election Results

jab

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The Steele Dossier and the stories about pissing Russian hookers have been memory-holed.
Um, there's a big difference between claims o
A tentative "yes" to the other elections referenced. There was a significant portion of the population that thought Putin was behind Trump stealing the 2016 election.

The only flaw is that there isn't a lot of overlap between the people who think 2016 was stolen and the people who think 2020 was stolen. Both had significant numbers, but little overlap.
There is a big difference between alleging widespread misinformation campaigns and hacking of opponents' emails by a foreign power and alleging widespread, systemic ballot tampering by foreign and/ or domestic actors. The first alleges that voters may well have voted based on mistaken beliefs but that their votes were counted accurately; the second alleges that voters' actual votes (the bedrock of elective democracy) were systematically and effectively not counted accurately. The second claim, if believed. undermines faith in a polity's democratic system and the legitimacy of the result, far more thoroughly.
 

ZiprHead

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The Steele Dossier and the stories about pissing Russian hookers have been memory-holed.
Um, there's a big difference between claims o
A tentative "yes" to the other elections referenced. There was a significant portion of the population that thought Putin was behind Trump stealing the 2016 election.

The only flaw is that there isn't a lot of overlap between the people who think 2016 was stolen and the people who think 2020 was stolen. Both had significant numbers, but little overlap.
There is a big difference between alleging widespread misinformation campaigns and hacking of opponents' emails by a foreign power and alleging widespread, systemic ballot tampering by foreign and/ or domestic actors. The first alleges that voters may well have voted based on mistaken beliefs but that their votes were counted accurately; the second alleges that voters' actual votes (the bedrock of elective democracy) were systematically and effectively not counted accurately. The second claim, if believed. undermines faith in a polity's democratic system and the legitimacy of the result, far more thoroughly.
C'mon. You know some people don't do nuance.
 

Jason Harvestdancer

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So you admit that there were indeed a significant portion of the public that believed that Trump was never actually elected due to Putin's interference.

You just claim it was from radical right-wing shill sites like MSNBC and radical right-wing talking heads such as Rachel Maddow.
 

bilby

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So you admit that there were indeed a significant portion of the public that believed that Trump was never actually elected due to Putin's interference.
I don't think there's a significant portion of the public who believes this.

And I think that the difference is the crux of the matter.

A significant portion of the public believes that Trump was elected due to Putin's interference. They don't question the result, but are unhappy about the events that led to a result they didn't like.

Whereas a significant portion of those upset about Biden's victory believe that he was not elected.

That's an important difference in position. It's the difference between claiming that a winning team scored more goals because they cheated, and claiming that a winning team scored fewer goals and then lied about how many goals they scored.

One is plausible; The other is batshit crazy.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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So polled Republican voters are in majority in disfavor of voting for anyone that suggests the 2020 election wasn't stolen by Biden.

article said:
Despite a mountain of evidence showing the 2020 presidential contest wasn’t rigged against Donald Trump, nearly 6 in 10 Republicans and Republican-leaning independents (57 percent) now say they will not vote in upcoming elections for any candidate who admits that Joe Biden won the presidency "fair and square."

Only 17 percent say they would consider voting for a candidate who accurately characterizes Biden’s victory as legitimate.
It is a damn virus.

article said:
Likewise, if the GOP wins control of Congress in November, 56 percent of Republicans say they want the party to launch yet another investigation of the 2020 presidential election — twice the number (28 percent) who say the opposite.
As a reminder, Trump's Campaign contested "election fraud" in the courts ZERO times.
 

Elixir

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We need only read Barbos’ posts to understand how easy it is to get people to believe absurdities. And as Voltaire (?) pointed out, once they believe absurdities, their willingness to commit atrocities is soon to follow.
This country is so full of stupid and lazy, our fate is all but sealed.
 

Elixir

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you admit that there were indeed a significant portion of the public that believed that Trump was never actually elected due to Putin's interference
Nope. Trump WAS actually elected and everyone knows it. The most left-leaning “fake news” media agree. That disinformation was a major contributor to his victory, is likewise not in question.
Your false equivalence reeks of desperation to find Democrats as deluded as trumpsuckers who believe The Big Lie.
Come to think of it, you might be one of them.
Who won the 2020 presidential election, Jason?
 

ZiprHead

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So you admit that there were indeed a significant portion of the public that believed that Trump was never actually elected due to Putin's interference.
Who is the "you" you are addressing?
You just claim it was from radical right-wing shill sites like MSNBC and radical right-wing talking heads such as Rachel Maddow.
Literally no one has claimed that except you.
 

Swammerdami

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So you admit that there were indeed a significant portion of the public that believed that Trump was never actually elected due to Putin's interference.

The word "Democrat" has three silent k's.
Is English your native language? An election outcome can be changed by disinformation campaigns. But can you point to anyone saying "Trump was never actually elected" ?

ETA: I just noticed that Elixir made the same obvious point. Why was Jason confused about this? :confused:
 

Elixir

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But can you point to anyone saying "Trump was never actually elected" ?
No, but it’s easy to find right wing talking head trumpsuckers who will tell you (among other lies) that “lib’ruls” think Cheato was never elected.
Obviously Jason reveres such “sources”.
 

Elixir

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…Elixir made the same obvious point. Why was Jason confused about this?
Let’s see if he answers my question:
“Who won the 2020 presidential election?”
An obvious glutton for right wing propaganda, I suspect he’s a big fan of The Big Lie. That would explain his confusion, but let’s see what he wants to tell us about how he came by his delusions.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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…Elixir made the same obvious point. Why was Jason confused about this?
Let’s see if he answers my question:
“Who won the 2020 presidential election?”
An obvious glutton for right wing propaganda, I suspect he’s a big fan of The Big Lie.
I doubt that. His MO is more about 'the Dems are just as bad'.

Like how the Democrats investigated the Russian connections via an actual... oh wait... that wasn't the Democrats, that was a Trump appointed Dept. of Justice leader who launched an investigation after Trump fired Comey.

Meanwhile, the Trump Campaign didn't take any election fraud cases to court, instead choosing to hold fake legislative hearings.

See, just as bad!
 

Elixir

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“Dems bad too” is a standard response employed by trumpsuckers to divert attention from the absurdities to which they subscribe, i.e. The Big Lie.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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“Dems bad too” is a standard response employed by trumpsuckers right-wingers to divert attention from the absurdities to which they subscribe, i.e. The Big Lie.
FIFY. Moore-Coulter is an old term these days. Heck, it has aged a bit and things have gotten exponentially worse. Comparing the Dems in 2017+ with the GOP in 2021... comparing immunization to the Holocaust.
 

Jason Harvestdancer

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you admit that there were indeed a significant portion of the public that believed that Trump was never actually elected due to Putin's interference
Nope. Trump WAS actually elected and everyone knows it. The most left-leaning “fake news” media agree. That disinformation was a major contributor to his victory, is likewise not in question.
Your false equivalence reeks of desperation to find Democrats as deluded as trumpsuckers who believe The Big Lie.
Come to think of it, you might be one of them.
Who won the 2020 presidential election, Jason?

The electoral vote clearly went to Biden, yet you are now claiming Trump won. How odd.
 

Jason Harvestdancer

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I know you are confused right now, so I will elaborate.

I like that people are starting to doubt outcomes. I just wish there was some overlap between when Team Blue doubts the outcome and when Team Red doubts the outcome. Unfortunately each team only doubt it when their own side loses and thinks the election was perfectly in order when their own side wins. The two teams must have gotten whiplash over the last 6 years, but neither team seems to have noticed how quickly they themselves moved through "it is rigged, no it is good, no it is rigged, no it is good".

I want people to doubt. I want to encourage those who doubted 2016 and those who doubted 2020, because I want doubt. Once again you are confused by consistency.
 

Patooka

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I like that people are starting to doubt outcomes. I just wish there was some overlap between when Team Blue doubts the outcome and when Team Red doubts the outcome. Unfortunately each team only doubt it when their own side loses and thinks the election was perfectly in order when their own side wins. The two teams must have gotten whiplash over the last 6 years, but neither team seems to have noticed how quickly they themselves moved through "it is rigged, no it is good, no it is rigged, no it is good".

I want people to doubt. I want to encourage those who doubted 2016 and those who doubted 2020, because I want doubt. Once again you are confused by consistency.
If you hate reliable democratic processes, just come out and say so. Spare me your false equivalency "both sides are bad" bullshit. Saying you support people flinging shit onto a wall just to see what sticks makes you an obtuse cunt.
 

Jason Harvestdancer

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I don't hate reliable democratic processes, I wish we had them. Instead we have Stacy Abrams and Donald Trump both refusing to concede Georgia. There's nothing in common between refusing to acknowledge a loss and refusing to acknowledge a loss, nothing at all.
 

ZiprHead

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I just wish there was some overlap between when Team Blue doubts the outcome and when Team Red doubts the outcome.
You have yet to provide any significant proof that team blue doubts the outcome of the 2016 presidential election. You're straw-manning.
 

Jason Harvestdancer

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I just wish there was some overlap between when Team Blue doubts the outcome and when Team Red doubts the outcome.
You have yet to provide any significant proof that team blue doubts the outcome of the 2016 election. You're straw-manning.
If you close your eyes you won't ever see any proof.
 

ZiprHead

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I just wish there was some overlap between when Team Blue doubts the outcome and when Team Red doubts the outcome.
You have yet to provide any significant proof that team blue doubts the outcome of the 2016 election. You're straw-manning.
If you close your eyes you won't ever see any proof.
You haven't posted any proof to see except one post from the Huffington Post by someone whom no one has ever heard of on a page labeled "This post was published on the now-closed HuffPost Contributor platform. Contributors control their own work and posted freely to our site."
 

Jimmy Higgins

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I know you are confused right now, so I will elaborate.

I like that people are starting to doubt outcomes. I just wish there was some overlap between when Team Blue doubts the outcome and when Team Red doubts the outcome. Unfortunately each team only doubt it when their own side loses and thinks the election was perfectly in order when their own side wins. The two teams must have gotten whiplash over the last 6 years, but neither team seems to have noticed how quickly they themselves moved through "it is rigged, no it is good, no it is rigged, no it is good".

I want people to doubt. I want to encourage those who doubted 2016 and those who doubted 2020, because I want doubt. Once again you are confused by consistency.
Well, you are confusing false equivalence for consistency.
 

ZiprHead

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I just wish there was some overlap between when Team Blue doubts the outcome and when Team Red doubts the outcome.
You have yet to provide any significant proof that team blue doubts the outcome of the 2016 election. You're straw-manning.
If you close your eyes you won't ever see any proof.
You haven't posted any proof to see except one post from the Huffington Post by someone whom no one has ever heard of on a page labeled "This post was published on the now-closed HuffPost Contributor platform. Contributors control their own work and posted freely to our site."
Not to mention the writer didn't claim Trump didn't win the election. He claimed Trump was so individually bad and his affiliations with Russia were cause to have his electors and Clinton's electors choose a differant person. He suggested John Kasich, another Republican.
 

southernhybrid

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I don't hate reliable democratic processes, I wish we had them. Instead we have Stacy Abrams and Donald Trump both refusing to concede Georgia. There's nothing in common between refusing to acknowledge a loss and refusing to acknowledge a loss, nothing at all.
Not this bullshit again. It's true that Stacey never formally conceded, but unlike Trump, she never once said that she won the election in Georgia. Do you realize that Kemp was the SOS while he was running for governor and that he was the one who was in charge of his own election? He was asked to give up his SOS position many times, in the interest of having a fair, democratic election. There was evidence that he and his buddies removed people from the voting roles while he was running for governor. That is why Stacey didn't formally concede, but not once did she say that she won. There was evidence that Kemp tried to suppress the vote, which made a lot of us a bit suspicious of the outcome, but, unlike Trump and his fools, we all accepted it.

Trump on the other hand continues to this day to lie about the 2020 election, claiming the election was rigged and that he won. And, a high percentage of Republicans believe or are pretending to believe "The Big Lie". Trump asked Raffensberger to "find" votes for him, which was clearly an illegal attempt to overturn the election. Stacey did nothing illegal, by simply not formally conceding. Trump on the other hand has done many things that should put him in legal jeopardy. What is wrong with you? Are you serious, or are you just repeating the bullshit that you probably heard on some nutty right wing broadcast? It's fine to disagree, but don't use bullshit to make your case. It doesn't help your position.
 

ZiprHead

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I don't hate reliable democratic processes, I wish we had them. Instead we have Stacy Abrams and Donald Trump both refusing to concede Georgia. There's nothing in common between refusing to acknowledge a loss and refusing to acknowledge a loss, nothing at all.
Not this bullshit again. It's true that Stacey never formally conceded, but unlike Trump, she never once said that she won the election in Georgia. Do you realize that Kemp was the SOS while he was running for governor and that he was the one who was in charge of his own election? He was asked to give up his SOS position many times, in the interest of having a fair, democratic election. There was evidence that he and his buddies removed people from the voting roles while he was running for governor. That is why Stacey didn't formally concede, but not once did she say that she won. There was evidence that Kemp tried to suppress the vote, which made a lot of us a bit suspicious of the outcome, but, unlike Trump and his fools, we all accepted it.

Trump on the other hand continues to this day to lie about the 2020 election, claiming the election was rigged and that he won. And, a high percentage of Republicans believe or are pretending to believe "The Big Lie". Trump asked Raffensberger to "find" votes for him, which was clearly an illegal attempt to overturn the election. Stacey did nothing illegal, by simply not formally conceding. Trump on the other hand has done many things that should put him in legal jeopardy. What is wrong with you? Are you serious, or are you just repeating the bullshit that you probably heard on some nutty right wing broadcast? It's fine to disagree, but don't use bullshit to make your case. It doesn't help your position.
But to JH, they are equivalent... somehow.
 

Elixir

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Seems that @Jason Harvestdancer has done a runner. Been a week now…
Perhaps revealing his stance on The Big Lie isn’t something he wants to do.
Not that there’s anything wrong with that, of course.
If he did come and answer and nobody has quoted him, I apologize.
 

Elixir

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I know you are confused right now, so I will elaborate.

I like that people are starting to doubt outcomes. I just wish there was some overlap between when Team Blue doubts the outcome and when Team Red doubts the outcome. Unfortunately each team only doubt it when their own side loses and thinks the election was perfectly in order when their own side wins. The two teams must have gotten whiplash over the last 6 years, but neither team seems to have noticed how quickly they themselves moved through "it is rigged, no it is good, no it is rigged, no it is good".

I want people to doubt. I want to encourage those who doubted 2016 and those who doubted 2020, because I want doubt. Once again you are confused by consistency.
I’m glad you admit that you want to destroy public confidence in our electoral process. Public confidence in election integrity is a necessary component of a functional democracy, which is why trump and his rubes have been trying to destroy it for over five years.
You still have not been able to back up your specious assertion that lefties think Cheato didn’t win in 2016, and the power of repetition failed you some time ago on that.

Who won the 2020
* popular vote
* electoral vote and
Was the outcome a result of fraud?

If you answer the above truthfully, there is no excuse for undermining people’s confidence in the integrity of the election.


I saw where you tried to hedge, @Jason Harvestdancer , and admitted tha Joe won the EC.
Which implies that he lost some other way.


In what way did Biden not win the 2020 election, Jason?
 
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Elixir

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It’s fairly obvious that only by pushing false equivalences can Jason rationalize his attacks on election integrity, which are mandated dogma of the Trump Party.
He might even think he favors sound democratic process, but in fact we had it. Until Trump lost and he blew it up with a coup attempt.
There was no massive fraud. Everyone knows that except a few credulous dummies who constitute Cheato’s most rabid support, and the margin of Republicans’ victories, wherever they can arrange it by hook or crook.

But I am not alone in expecting massive fraud in November, should Dems pull any upsets in red States.
 

Jason Harvestdancer

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I know you are confused right now, so I will elaborate.

I like that people are starting to doubt outcomes. I just wish there was some overlap between when Team Blue doubts the outcome and when Team Red doubts the outcome. Unfortunately each team only doubt it when their own side loses and thinks the election was perfectly in order when their own side wins. The two teams must have gotten whiplash over the last 6 years, but neither team seems to have noticed how quickly they themselves moved through "it is rigged, no it is good, no it is rigged, no it is good".

I want people to doubt. I want to encourage those who doubted 2016 and those who doubted 2020, because I want doubt. Once again you are confused by consistency.
I’m glad you admit that you want to destroy public confidence in our electoral process. Public confidence in election integrity is a necessary component of a functional democracy, which is why trump and his rubes have been trying to destroy it for over five years.
You still have not been able to back up your specious assertion that lefties think Cheato didn’t win in 2016, and the power of repetition failed you some time ago on that.

We don't have a functioning democracy though. The system is broken, and public confidence is nothing more than the duct tape holding together the remnants. You need to be able to recognize that there is a problem in the first place before you can start trying to fix it.

Who won the 2020
* popular vote
* electoral vote and
Was the outcome a result of fraud?

If you answer the above truthfully, there is no excuse for undermining people’s confidence in the integrity of the election.


I saw where you tried to hedge, @Jason Harvestdancer , and admitted tha Joe won the EC.
Which implies that he lost some other way.


In what way did Biden not win the 2020 election, Jason?

Fascinating. Let me guess, you are going to try to claim that I never answered who won, even though you admitted you found a post in which I answered you.

The way in which he lost was that he was the second president in a row to have people doubting the legitimacy of the office holder. That's too abstract for you, so you'll say that isn't an answer. You'll want an answer a 3rd grader can understand.

Other people are accusing me of not answering already.
 

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The way in which he lost was that he was the second president in a row to have people doubting the legitimacy of the office holder.

Doubting the legitimacy of an election is hardly something new. In my lifetime, I remember several elections starting with John F. Kennedy where there were many claims of ballot irregularities. Many times there have been supporters of the losing candidate who pushed for lawsuits to contest the election results. But other than Bush v Gore, I don't remember anyone other than President Trump continuing to push the idea that the election was fraudulent for more than a few days, and even Gore conceded fairly rapidly after the court's decision.

Ruth
 

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We have had elections here and there where people doubted the legitimacy. Having two in a row is something different. Many people doubted the 2000 election results, nobody doubted the 2004 election results.
Nobody doubted 2016 either. Everyone doubted the parties involved and their stated level of involvement. That's why the Republican lead senate voted unanimously to conduct an investigation and voted unanimously again in 2019 to ratify the findings.

Basically everybody except you and you alone was concerned with the level of Russian involvement in the 2016 election.

Incidentally Jason, I'm not sure why you give a flying fuck unless you are arguing in bad faith. The Republican mandated investigation seized so many criminal assets the inquiry paid for itself. One of the very few government initiatives that actually made a profit. A true Libertarian who is against government waste should be over the moon about that.
 

Jason Harvestdancer

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We have had elections here and there where people doubted the legitimacy. Having two in a row is something different. Many people doubted the 2000 election results, nobody doubted the 2004 election results.
Nobody doubted 2016 either.

So there weren't any conspiracy theories about Russian hacking, Steele Dossiers, pissing Russian hookers, etc. Good to know.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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I know you are confused right now, so I will elaborate.

I like that people are starting to doubt outcomes. I just wish there was some overlap between when Team Blue doubts the outcome and when Team Red doubts the outcome. Unfortunately each team only doubt it when their own side loses and thinks the election was perfectly in order when their own side wins. The two teams must have gotten whiplash over the last 6 years, but neither team seems to have noticed how quickly they themselves moved through "it is rigged, no it is good, no it is rigged, no it is good".

I want people to doubt. I want to encourage those who doubted 2016 and those who doubted 2020, because I want doubt. Once again you are confused by consistency.
I’m glad you admit that you want to destroy public confidence in our electoral process. Public confidence in election integrity is a necessary component of a functional democracy, which is why trump and his rubes have been trying to destroy it for over five years.
You still have not been able to back up your specious assertion that lefties think Cheato didn’t win in 2016, and the power of repetition failed you some time ago on that.

We don't have a functioning democracy though. The system is broken, and public confidence is nothing more than the duct tape holding together the remnants. You need to be able to recognize that there is a problem in the first place before you can start trying to fix it.

Who won the 2020
* popular vote
* electoral vote and
Was the outcome a result of fraud?

If you answer the above truthfully, there is no excuse for undermining people’s confidence in the integrity of the election.


I saw where you tried to hedge, @Jason Harvestdancer , and admitted tha Joe won the EC.
Which implies that he lost some other way.


In what way did Biden not win the 2020 election, Jason?

Fascinating. Let me guess, you are going to try to claim that I never answered who won, even though you admitted you found a post in which I answered you.

The way in which he lost was that he was the second president in a row to have people doubting the legitimacy of the office holder.
There are so many asterisks that go with that statement to render it misleading bullshit.
 

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So there weren't any conspiracy theories about Russian hacking, Steele Dossiers, pissing Russian hookers, etc. Good to know.
I see, so that because you can find a few randos that means absolutely everybody who didn't vote for Trump in 2016 clearly believed the election was stolen. Good to know. Fuck me sideways "libertarians" suffer from some of the worst cognitive dissonance.
 

Jason Harvestdancer

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So there weren't any conspiracy theories about Russian hacking, Steele Dossiers, pissing Russian hookers, etc. Good to know.
I see, so that because you can find a few randos that means absolutely everybody who didn't vote for Trump in 2016 clearly believed the election was stolen. Good to know. Fuck me sideways "libertarians" suffer from some of the worst cognitive dissonance.
Yeah, MSNBC is just "a few randos".
 

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Mike Pence' chief of staff testified before the J6 committee for several hours today. That's a big one.
 

ZiprHead

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So there weren't any conspiracy theories about Russian hacking, Steele Dossiers, pissing Russian hookers, etc. Good to know.
I see, so that because you can find a few randos that means absolutely everybody who didn't vote for Trump in 2016 clearly believed the election was stolen. Good to know. Fuck me sideways "libertarians" suffer from some of the worst cognitive dissonance.
Yeah, MSNBC is just "a few randos".
Do you have evidence that someone from MSNBC said Trump didn't win the election?
 

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I know you are confused right now, so I will elaborate.

I like that people are starting to doubt outcomes. I just wish there was some overlap between when Team Blue doubts the outcome and when Team Red doubts the outcome. Unfortunately each team only doubt it when their own side loses and thinks the election was perfectly in order when their own side wins. The two teams must have gotten whiplash over the last 6 years, but neither team seems to have noticed how quickly they themselves moved through "it is rigged, no it is good, no it is rigged, no it is good".

I want people to doubt. I want to encourage those who doubted 2016 and those who doubted 2020, because I want doubt. Once again you are confused by consistency.
I’m glad you admit that you want to destroy public confidence in our electoral process. Public confidence in election integrity is a necessary component of a functional democracy, which is why trump and his rubes have been trying to destroy it for over five years.
You still have not been able to back up your specious assertion that lefties think Cheato didn’t win in 2016, and the power of repetition failed you some time ago on that.

We don't have a functioning democracy though. The system is broken, and public confidence is nothing more than the duct tape holding together the remnants. You need to be able to recognize that there is a problem in the first place before you can start trying to fix it.

Who won the 2020
* popular vote
* electoral vote and
Was the outcome a result of fraud?

If you answer the above truthfully, there is no excuse for undermining people’s confidence in the integrity of the election.


I saw where you tried to hedge, @Jason Harvestdancer , and admitted tha Joe won the EC.
Which implies that he lost some other way.


In what way did Biden not win the 2020 election, Jason?

Fascinating. Let me guess, you are going to try to claim that I never answered who won, even though you admitted you found a post in which I answered you.

The way in which he lost was that he was the second president in a row to have people doubting the legitimacy of the office holder. That's too abstract for you, so you'll say that isn't an answer. You'll want an answer a 3rd grader can understand.

Other people are accusing me of not answering already.
You are clearly backpedaling.. You have retreated from a "both sides" position based on a falsehood that "Dems did not believe Donald Trump won the 2016 election" (just like Reps are presently saying Biden did not win the 2020 election), to the weaker position of, "Well, both sides have their doubts about how legit the elected president is"

Uh huh.

OK.

... but maybe shut the fuck up about it being "too abstract" to understand while using completely different words than your retreating, backpeding troll-fail... That's the funny part of your inanity... "Ya, well.. I guess your to stoopid to undertand my subtle meaning when I said the other thing"
lol
 

Elixir

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You are clearly backpedaling.. You have retreated from a "both sides" position based on a falsehood that "Dems did not believe Donald Trump won the 2016 election" (just like Reps are presently saying Biden did not win the 2020 election), to the weaker position of, "Well, both sides have their doubts about how legit the elected president is"

Just in case Jason is wondering, I have absolutely no doubt about who won the 2016 or 2020 presidential elections, and that those results were legitimately attained through a Constitutionally described process. I'll even venture that no Biden voters here harbor other beliefs.
I don't think we have any right wingers on this forum who would dare say the same thing in public.

Why is that? Most of our right wingers will give a wink and a nod to statements like "there was no massive fraud" or "the election was not stolen" but they do not evince that view themselves. Instead, they endorse The Big Lie either tacitly or by implication with smarmy statements about "both sides".
 

Jimmy Higgins

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You are clearly backpedaling.. You have retreated from a "both sides" position based on a falsehood that "Dems did not believe Donald Trump won the 2016 election" (just like Reps are presently saying Biden did not win the 2020 election), to the weaker position of, "Well, both sides have their doubts about how legit the elected president is"

Just in case Jason is wondering, I have absolutely no doubt about who won the 2016 or 2020 presidential elections, and that those results were legitimately attained through a Constitutionally described process. I'll even venture that no Biden voters here harbor other beliefs.
2016 was about any potential conspiracy between the Trump Campaign and Russia to aid in meddling in Trump's favor for favors. Such things like a secret meeting with Moscow affiliates and the top members of the Trump Campaign about information against Hillary Clinton (via emails Trump Jr released), Trump pressing hard on (also firing) Comey to drop investigation into Flynn, among other things. Which all led to Trump's DoJ (not the Democrats) launching the Special Prosecutor investigation.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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You are clearly backpedaling.. You have retreated from a "both sides" position based on a falsehood that "Dems did not believe Donald Trump won the 2016 election" (just like Reps are presently saying Biden did not win the 2020 election), to the weaker position of, "Well, both sides have their doubts about how legit the elected president is"

Just in case Jason is wondering, I have absolutely no doubt about who won the 2016 or 2020 presidential elections, and that those results were legitimately attained through a Constitutionally described process. I'll even venture that no Biden voters here harbor other beliefs.
2016 was about any potential conspiracy between the Trump Campaign and Russia to aid in meddling in Trump's favor for favors. Such things like a secret meeting with Moscow affiliates and the top members of the Trump Campaign about information against Hillary Clinton (via emails Trump Jr released), Trump pressing hard on (also firing) Comey to drop investigation into Flynn, among other things. Which all led to Trump's DoJ (not the Democrats) launching the Special Prosecutor investigation.
There was also one other thing. The huge stabbing pain of the evangelicals voting en masse for Trump, after all of their fucking whining about morality since Monica Lewinsky. We endured 20 or so years of that shit from the "Religious Right", and then they come out, in wild vocal support for Trump... even after "grabbing them by the pussy".
 

Jason Harvestdancer

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There was also one other thing. The huge stabbing pain of the evangelicals voting en masse for Trump, after all of their fucking whining about morality since Monica Lewinsky. We endured 20 or so years of that shit from the "Religious Right", and then they come out, in wild vocal support for Trump... even after "grabbing them by the pussy".

Wow, that came straight out of nowhere. Is that supposed to connect to something somewhere? Does anyone know what you are talking about?
 

ZiprHead

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There was also one other thing. The huge stabbing pain of the evangelicals voting en masse for Trump, after all of their fucking whining about morality since Monica Lewinsky. We endured 20 or so years of that shit from the "Religious Right", and then they come out, in wild vocal support for Trump... even after "grabbing them by the pussy".

Wow, that came straight out of nowhere. Is that supposed to connect to something somewhere? Does anyone know what you are talking about?
Context believes in you even though you may not believe in context.
 

Swammerdami

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There was also one other thing. The huge stabbing pain of the evangelicals voting en masse for Trump, after all of their fucking whining about morality since Monica Lewinsky. We endured 20 or so years of that shit from the "Religious Right", and then they come out, in wild vocal support for Trump... even after "grabbing them by the pussy".

Wow, that came straight out of nowhere. Is that supposed to connect to something somewhere? Does anyone know what you are talking about?

The word "Democrat" has three silent k's.
I can't speak for the other JH, but I can speak for YOU, Mr. Harvestdancer. :)

You seem to believe in a false equivalence. You seem to believe that
(a) R's claiming the 2020 election was stolen and that Trump is the rightful President; die-hard Trumplickers even assaulting the nation's Capitol, committing mayhem and literally smearing shit on the Capitol's walls; R's declaring that Trumnp is the rightful President including Members of Congress and other high-placed R officials; all this despite Biden's popular vote landslide;
and
(b) D's pointing out that Trump's 2016 victory benefited from Kremlin-driven lies, idiosyncrasies in the electoral college system, and events like Comey's last-minute statement, while NEVER ever saying Trump was not legally elected. (Can you cite even ONE single Democrat who says otherwise, excepting obvious clowns?)
... are essentially the same.

Does that sum up your stance pretty well? If not — if I am mistaken about you — please correct this misunderstanding. (Kindly state your recantation with simple words in the form of a sober and objective statement rather than useless nasty invective.)

Can you do that? I'm guessing No and — although I am not authorized to speak for him — I'll guess that Mr. Higgins deviated from the strict topic in a (futile) effort to pound sense into your head.

Disputed elections are as American as apple pie. Naturally many D's were annoyed that Trump won in 2016, and happy to point out connections like Kremlin lies, Facebook and Comey seeming to help Trump, and so on. But they did not challenge the election, let alone declaring it "stolen;" and certainly did NOT smear shit on the Capitol walls.

Recall the 1960 election where Kennedy won both Texas and Illinois through likely foul play. Had Nixon taken both states to court and won both, then Nixon, and not JFK, would have become the 35th President of the United States. Yet he did not do that. Despite (later) being widely condemned as a criminal President, he was enough of a patriot, and had enough respect for the electoral system, to wish JFK a happy Presidency without ever pursuing the probable cheating in Illinois and Texas.

That's right, the behavior of the R's between the 2020 election and the 2021 inauguration (and continuing to the present) is almost unprecedented in American history. Did you really not understand this?

I'm curious why you post your "beliefs" resting on the false equivalence. Do you think you will sway the opinion of any Infidel? When your fellow Infidels read these opinions of yours, what do you think we feel about you and your "knowledge"?
 

TomC

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We have had elections here and there where people doubted the legitimacy. Having two in a row is something different. Many people doubted the 2000 election results, nobody doubted the 2004 election results.
We don't have presidential elections here in the USA.
People vote. But it's not an election of the President.

The president is appointed by the Electoral College. The Electoral College delegates are appointed by state legislatures.
Nothing like a free and fair election. People only seem to notice that when the EC doesn't produce the results they want.

But let's face it, the last time a Republican non-incumbent won the American vote was in the 80s. Two of three incumbents lost, despite the advantages provided by incumbency.
Republicans do not represent the American electorate and haven't in decades.
Tom
 
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