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2020 Redistricting v Gerrymandering Setback

Speaking as someone in Australia how is the claim of gerrymandering made?
is it because of the shape of the seats?

In Australia we have some oddly shaped seats but no one claims gerrymandering because of that. Our seats follow population densities so it is to be expected that some seats will have odd shapes.
 
Speaking as someone in Australia how is the claim of gerrymandering made?
is it because of the shape of the seats?

In Australia we have some oddly shaped seats but no one claims gerrymandering because of that. Our seats follow population densities so it is to be expected that some seats will have odd shapes.

It's districts which end up having weird shapes because they have been designed for partisan advantage. Basically packing most of the other party's voters into as few districts as possible.

The name comes from Elbridge Gerry, then (early 19th century) Governor of Massachusetts and an newspaper cartoon of an odd-shaped district he conceived.
800px-The_Gerry-Mander_Edit.png
 
get rid of "districts"

You have no complaint about gerrymandering if you favor the nutty system of having Congressional districts. Nothing in the Constitution requires this districting nonsense. Both Parties play power-politics games with the boundaries when they're in power.

As long as you think "districts" make sense, you're part of the problem and deserve the gerrymandering you get. There's no solution to this except to abolish congressional districts altogether.

Each state can do this on its own, without federal approval. Each state can form its own system of choosing the representatives, without any need for the arbitrary and nutty district boundaries. The Constitution requires no such thing.

There is a goofy federal statute about it, but any state could repudiate this law and organize its own representatives according to something simpler. Nothing could be done to impose the stupid districting system upon a state if it simply repudiates districts and allows voters to elect representatives according to something more rational.

E.g., a state could choose at-large representatives (state-wide), elected by all the voters throughout the state, where the top vote-getters would be elected (e.g., if the number of representatives is to be 10, the top 10 vote-getters would be the winners), independent of so-called "districts" drawn by the gerrymanderers. A contrary federal law could not be enforced to prevent this. Nothing could be done to prevent a state from taking an alternative approach to choosing its representatives.


A simple system would be to have a "primary" election in which every voter could vote for 2 of the candidates on the list, followed by the general election where each voter would choose one candidate from the list.
 
You have no complaint about gerrymandering if you favor the nutty system of having Congressional districts.

I tend to agree with you, Rags. But it would greatly diminish the power of the Two Parties, and thus has a snowball's chance in a blast furnace of getting implemented.
 
As mentioned in #12, Congressional apportionment has been a hot potato for over two centuries; and Congress has often changed the algorithm or the number of seats AFTER the census results were already in. The R's would certainly be thinking about that ("Reverse the steal") if they were in control.

Just for fun, I checked what the results would be for alternate methods.

The Jefferson algorithm — law of the land for the first six censuses — for 435 seats using the 2020 census would have produced very different results from the present Hamilton-Hill algorithm.
Losers under Jefferson: AL, ME, MN, MT, NE, NH, NM, OR, RI
Winners under Jefferson: 2 seats each CA, NY, TX; 1 each FL, OH, PA

The Adams algorithm — proposed by J.Q. Adams but never adopted — would have also led to very different apportionment, though opposite from the Jefferson effects.
Losers under Adams: 2 seats CA; 1 each FL, IL, TX
Winners under Adams: DE, ID, SD, UT, WV

The Hamilton and Webster algorithms — each law of the land at some point — would have corrected the moot "unfairnesses" I mentioned in #14.
Losers under Webster or Hamilton: MT, RI
Winners under Webster or Hamilton: NY, OH

Finally, the Dean algorithm would have the effect of giving one of MN's seats to DE.


Or, as another study, consider the effect of using the Huntington-Hill algorithm, but changing the size of Congress:
440 - AZ, FL, NY, OH, TX each gain
439 - FL, NY, OH, TX each gain
438 - NY, OH, TX each gain
437 - NY, OH each gain
436 - NY gains 1
435 - ("status quo")
434 - MN loses 1
433 - MN, MT each lose
432 - CA, MN, MT each lose
431 - CA, CO, MN, MT each lose
430 - CA, CO, MN, MT, OR each lose​

Almost all the alternatives I've explored here would be neutral or help the R's. An exception is increasing the House size to 436: New York gets the new seat! (And the D's can argue that they're eliminating the possibility of a pesky 269-269 ev tie.)
 
There is an alternative to single-member districts that is widely used.

Proportional representation.

There are several forms, but a simple form of it is party-list PR. One votes for a party and each party gets seats in proportion to how many votes it received.

An alternative is single transferable vote. It's a relative of instant runoff voting, but with both winners and losers dropping out as the count proceeds, and with the ballots for each winner being either culled or downweighted to make the results proportional.

Downweighting? Culling? Here's how it works. One calculates a victory quota:
Q = (total votes) / ((number of seats) + 1)
One then compares each candidate's number of top votes V to Q. If the candidate with the largest V also has V >= Q, then that candidate is a winner. Culling: removing Q out of the V ballots that elected that winner. Downweighting: starting out with every ballot having a weight of 1, and then multiplying the winner's ballot's weights by (1 - Q/V).

Without that culling/downweighting step, a partisan vote would make the vote a version of general ticket with IRV for the slates of candidates.

General ticket: voting for complete slates of candidates as if they were single candidates. It is the general result of extending single-winner systems to multiple winners without some culling or downweighting step for winners.
 
Speaking as someone in Australia how is the claim of gerrymandering made?
is it because of the shape of the seats?

In Australia we have some oddly shaped seats but no one claims gerrymandering because of that. Our seats follow population densities so it is to be expected that some seats will have odd shapes.

Redistricting in the US is generally done by the party that is in power for a state. So to put it in Australian terms, imagine if the premiers get to redistrict the states how they see fit. A slight conflict of interest. And it's pretty obvious when gerrymandering occurs. If a party gets only 45% of the total votes in a state, but control 60% of the seats, it's pretty obvious the districts were gerrymandered. It happened in Australia as well - just do a quick search of how Joh Bjelke-Petersen ran Queensland during the 70s and 80s.

And as always; when in doubt, just ask John Oliver:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-4dIImaodQ[/youtube]
 
Speaking as someone in Australia how is the claim of gerrymandering made?
is it because of the shape of the seats?

In Australia we have some oddly shaped seats but no one claims gerrymandering because of that. Our seats follow population densities so it is to be expected that some seats will have odd shapes.
The US is complicated as there is a need to try and make certain everyone is represented. Thankfully computers can help do that well. They can also help to reduce representation by either stuffing too many Dems or Reps into fewer districts (Ohio, Florida) or spreading out supporters in districts (Maryland). It is a thing that both parties are guilty of, but the Republicans really went overboard in states like Texas, North Carolina, and Ohio.

So Ohio is a purple (or was purple), voting for Obama in '08 and '12, yet in Ohio, Democrats only have 25% of the House seats. And looking at the district mapping, you can understand why (if you are from the area). Around Toledo, the gerrymandering stuffs Democrats into a district that runs all the way to Cleveland! This allows two districts underneath the Toledo district to then use geography and overwhelm the remainder of Lucas County which is still Democrat voting.

Gerrymandering is unethical, leads to crazy people getting elected, but SCOTUS won't touch it, because creating a 'fair' standard for calling out Gerrymandering is extraordinarily hard... for lawyers to understand (lawyers are pathetic when it comes to solving problems). And so we are stuck with several states still having the party in power, draw the lines. It is ridiculous.

Ohio had a referendum several years back on having a non-partisan board redraw lines every 10 years (as required by the Constitution), but there was so much advertising against it on TV, that never actually explained why you should vote against the referendum, other than 'unaccountable' people being in charge. The referendum failed. Recently, a naive redistricting bill was affirmed by the voters that promised virgin angels would oversee the redistricting process and people would promise to be nice. I actually voted against it, because it had fewer teeth than a newborn baby.
 
Speaking as someone in Australia how is the claim of gerrymandering made?
is it because of the shape of the seats?

In Australia we have some oddly shaped seats but no one claims gerrymandering because of that. Our seats follow population densities so it is to be expected that some seats will have odd shapes.

This explains gerrymandering quite simply.

KENSOBMKNQ7ILKFUNRZ2H6JPWA.png

Basically gerrymandering is the pols choosing their voters instead of the voters choosing their pols.
 
What if we did it backwards. Primary is the General Election. The primary would be the vote for the party. And the General election for the people that serve.

The trouble however is if you are 50-50 with an odd number of seats. Also 'perfect representation' only works in certain cases. Montana has two seats in the House now. If the vote is 70-30 or 60-40 for the red team, what is the basis take the first 50 and then it is 50-15 and 20-15 (2 GOP seats) or 50-0, and 20-30 (1 seat each)?

Ultimately, thanks to computers, districting can be done quick and efficiently (well, not according to Ohio who says they don't have enough time to do it?!?!), and we should be capable of legal districting with virtually no partisan BS. But this is America and there isn't anything good we can't screw up.

Democracy is a pain in the butt!
 
Even if we fixed the district boundaries, the state boundaries are de facto another form of gerrymandering.
 
Speaking as someone in Australia how is the claim of gerrymandering made?
is it because of the shape of the seats?

In Australia we have some oddly shaped seats but no one claims gerrymandering because of that. Our seats follow population densities so it is to be expected that some seats will have odd shapes.

Redistricting in the US is generally done by the party that is in power for a state. So to put it in Australian terms, imagine if the premiers get to redistrict the states how they see fit. A slight conflict of interest. And it's pretty obvious when gerrymandering occurs. If a party gets only 45% of the total votes in a state, but control 60% of the seats, it's pretty obvious the districts were gerrymandered. It happened in Australia as well - just do a quick search of how Joh Bjelke-Petersen ran Queensland during the 70s and 80s.
IIRC Sir Joh took over a gerrymander in Qld that Labour had introduced and refined it greatly. Beaten at their own game.

The Australian system of having independent parliamentary electoral commissions for each state and the commonwealth works quite well. Not perfect but probably the best we can manage.

Plus if the yanks could get more to vote instead of their quite pathetic turnouts that would be most useful.
 
(This post is directed at Ziprhead)
You are starting your image above based upon a divisons between red & blue. Why is that important? Ignore that division and go solely by numbers.
Base your electorates only upon the amount of people within them i.e. each electorate has N voters +/-% rather than how the electorate voted previously will eliminate a lot (not all) of any bias.
 
Various miscellaneous comments about gerrymandering.

(1) I don't remember all the details of this, and I'm not going to Google. But there was a situation a few years ago (2016? or 2018?) in North Carolina(?) that infuriated me. The Republicans gerrymandered their state egregiously; courts kept ruling against the redistricting; the Rs kept stalling or going back to the drawing-board to come up with just an alternate obviously-gerrymandered map. Finally, a judge ruled against the latest effort BUT said that it had to stand because (due to all the stalling and obstruction) there wasn't time to do yet another redistricting.

This infuriated me. When time was running out, the court should have appointed a special master to draw the district lines unilaterally. Once this didn't happen, the judge should have stepped in with some remedy, e.g. don't allow NC to send any Representatives to Washington until a fair election could be held.

(2) There is some gerrymandering which is supported by "liberals" and, indeed, may be ordered by a judge! For example, suppose that several districts each have 30% or 35% Hispanics. Outnumbered in every district, the Hispanics are unable to elect a single legislator despite that their total numbers imply they should have some. To remedy this, some districtings have been mandated to ensure that minorities do get to elect a Representative.

I regard such kluges as just more evidence that proportional representation is good; constituency-based representation is obsolete. It made sense in the olden days; but with high mobility, geographical community is much less meaningful.

(3) One message-board moron proposed an arbitrary districting. For example, to make ten districts from a state one could use the final digit of the Social Security Number to assign districts to voters. Since those digits are random, if the Orange Party had 52% of the voters state-wide, the Law of Large Numbers tells us they would be almost certain to get about 52% in EVERY district. The Purple Party with 48% would get zero Representatives.

Speaking as someone in Australia how is the claim of gerrymandering made?
is it because of the shape of the seats?

In Australia we have some oddly shaped seats but no one claims gerrymandering because of that. Our seats follow population densities so it is to be expected that some seats will have odd shapes.

(4) What criteria should be used to create districts? Many odd-shaped districts result from linking similar areas together. For example Ohio's District 9 lumps many lake-side neighborhoods together. Maybe that's good? If such a districting were the only way to ensure a Representative for some minority it would be applauded!

"Compactness" has been proposed as a criterion. Compactness isn't easy to measure (some definitions need the district perimeter, but — cf fractals — boundary lines that follow a river have no well-defined length) and anyway, districting is about voters, not about land.

Best may be to look at the final results. If the Purple Party has 45% of the voters but gets just one seat, something must be wrong? Again, the conclusion is that proportional representation would be better. As implied up-thread, to divide a state split 55-45 in favor of the Orange Party into twenty districts, one might theoretically finish with all 20 seats held by Orange, or as few as 2 held by Orange. What split would be fair? 11-9 would be the proportional split, but even if districting were done by a computer algorithm ignorant of party distribution, a result of 12-8 or 13-7 would be more probable than 11-9. (Indeed 20-0 would be the result if party and location are uncorrelated.)

One proposal is to compare the Orangeness of the mean district with the Orangeness of the median district. These numbers should be about the same if districting is "fair." Note, however, that a districting which gives ALL districts to the Orange would usually do quite well on this measure!

(5) The easiest way to know whether partisan gerrymandering is at work, is just to listen to the gerrymanderers themselves. They don't keep their projects secret. The daughter of one Republican hack waited until her Dad was dead, then "blew the whistle" on him.

(6) R's will be eager to go "Whine, whine, whine. Goose gander. The D's gerrymander also. Whine, whine, lie."

It is certainly true that Ds have gerrymandered in the past, and there is still some D gerrymandering in the present day. But a huge majority of partisan gerrymandering in recent decades is done by the Rs. This is very logical. The essence of D philosophy is fairness, help for minorities, restoring democracy, etc. The Rs are now completely dominated by lying and cheating — their only guiding philosophy is the do whatever it takes to keep the super-rich in charge and exploit everyday Americans.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Here is a "Redistricting Laboratory". I've not yet clicked on it; someone might want to play there and give a report.
 
It is certainly true that Ds have gerrymandered in the past, and there is still some D gerrymandering in the present day. But a huge majority of partisan gerrymandering in recent decades is done by the Rs. This is very logical. The essence of D philosophy is fairness, help for minorities, restoring democracy, etc. The Rs are now completely dominated by lying and cheating — their only guiding philosophy is the do whatever it takes to keep the super-rich in charge and exploit everyday Americans.

Whichever political party stands to gain most from gerrymandering will support it. Right now that’s the Republicans due to the relative unpopularity of their political policies, to the extent that they have any coherent ones.

As you have given in one of your examples, Democrats can argue in support of gerrymandering even while ostensibly supporting fairness.
 
It is certainly true that Ds have gerrymandered in the past, and there is still some D gerrymandering in the present day. But a huge majority of partisan gerrymandering in recent decades is done by the Rs. This is very logical. The essence of D philosophy is fairness, help for minorities, restoring democracy, etc. The Rs are now completely dominated by lying and cheating — their only guiding philosophy is the do whatever it takes to keep the super-rich in charge and exploit everyday Americans.

Whichever political party stands to gain most from gerrymandering will support it. Right now that’s the Republicans due to the relative unpopularity of their political policies, to the extent that they have any coherent ones.

As you have given in one of your examples, Democrats can argue in support of gerrymandering even while ostensibly supporting fairness.

Re-reading this post and seeing the hint at policy incoherence, I wonder if you would agree with the following statement:

Political opinion from the misbegotten right isn't even catering to the super-rich much; instead they have bizarrely constructed a mannequin of their favorite supporter -- a cross between Joe the Plumber and Donald Trump (throw in an Archie Bunker who picked the wrong news channel) -- and are worshipping it, much like a pagan god. As a body, the GOP is literally confused and deranged, and (seemingly?) being steered by clowns on Facebook or Parler.

@ Mr. Shadowy : Stipulating that the italicized comment may be slightly exaggerated, would you otherwise see fit to agree with it? If so, I'd be happy to co-endorse your comments as well.
 
I don’t think they are as confused and/or deranged as you might imply. My evidence is the stark hypocrisy they frequently exhibit. That is, they understand how to craft a logical argument when it is their favor to do so, but also know how to construct an opposite and misleading argument when it is in their favor to do that.

I’d almost have more respect for them if they just had crazy ideas and values but stuck to them rather than them having no moral or ethical integrity, which their hypocrisy demonstrates.

Now, there are a few politicians for whom it is difficult to distinguish between their intelligence level and the level of the supporters they appear to be catering too. Ron Johnson is a good example. But for the most part I think it’s simply craven partisanship rather than religious zeal behind their actions.
 
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