• Welcome to the Internet Infidels Discussion Board.

52 Palestinian protesters killed at border

Except when it doesn't. Remember that year long ceasefire when Hamas first came to power in Gaza that was broken when Israel sent in a strike team that killed about a half dozen Gazans? Remember when the IDF kidnapped those two guys in Lebanon and when Hezbollah grabbed Israeli soldiers in response Israel went berserk and started a war? Remember when Israel sent undercover cops to join the peaceful demonstrations in the West Bank, and the undercover guys threw rocks so the IDF could use force on the Palestinians?
I don't recall that last one, but the shaky ceasefire in 2008 and the Israeli raid you are referring to was to dismantle a tunnel from Gaza to Israel. It was not unprovoked. And the start of the Lebanon war is an even more clear cut example that violence is met with violence.

In any case, Israel has an agenda in West Bank to secure more land, so that's usually an exception to the rule.

All in all, the six-week protests were mostly a failure to Hamas. They failed to breach the fence, they failed to stop or delay the US embassy opening in Jerusalem, and the international community is lukewarm at best responding to the death toll. Maybe if they had curbed the violence from the start and set themselves more reasonable goals, for example reclaiming part of the no-mans's land, the outcome could have been different.

I doubt Hamas seriously attempted to breach the fence, and I highly doubt anyone anywhere thought a demonstration by Palestinians was going to stop Donald Trump from stroking his ego to the point of orgasm by being the President who formally recognized Jerusalem as Israel's capitol.
Hamas clearly meant to breach the fence, that was their stated goal for the protests and they brought fence cutters and IEDs for that very purpose. As for preventing the embassy, maybe they didn't think that it was very likely, but nevertheless if there had been a delay, at least Hamas could claim some victory.

Anyway, what exactly do you think is a reasonable goal for the people of Gaza? Israel doesn't recognize their right to any part of Palestine, keeps them penned inside a ghetto, controls their food supply, commerce, and resources, and continues to displace non-Jews in the West Bank. What is a reasonable response to that?
The best thing for the people in Gaza is to protest the restrictions on food, resources and commerce. Best way to do it is non-violent protest and building up their infrastructure. And likewise, the most efficient way for Gazans to help stop the displacement of Palestinians in West Bank is to live well and behave themselves. Every time Hamas fires rockets from Gaza or tries to breach the fence or attacks a checkpoint, the Israeli public is nudged slightly to the side of the settlers, while actually doing nothing to deter the latter. If Gazan show that withdrawal of settlements is met with peace, that would put pressure (albeit not necessarily enough) for Israel to do the same in West Bank.

If Hamas wants to break the blockade, the way to do it is small steps. Don't try to breach the fence, just get closer to the fence and get some of the land back that Israel designated as a no-man's land.
 
I don't recall that last one, but the shaky ceasefire in 2008 and the Israeli raid you are referring to was to dismantle a tunnel from Gaza to Israel. It was not unprovoked. And the start of the Lebanon war is an even more clear cut example that violence is met with violence.

You made a sweeping statement about Israel responding to violence with violence, and to calm with calm, that is easily disproven. You claimed it was long-standing policy. That, too, is easily disproven. Israel kidnapped 2 men from Lebanon shortly after the Syrians withdrew and the Israelis thought they could get away with it. Israeli violence was met with Lebanese violence which was met with even more Israeli violence.

Israel responds to whatever it damn well pleases in any way it damn well pleases.

In any case, Israel has an agenda in West Bank to secure more land, so that's usually an exception to the rule.

Israel's long-standing policy wrt Palestinians is aggression. Theft of land and resources, ethnic cleansing, keeping a captive population confined in Gaza, it's all part of the violence and it's all inherent in the Zionism of guys like Netanyahu and Adelson.

I doubt Hamas seriously attempted to breach the fence, and I highly doubt anyone anywhere thought a demonstration by Palestinians was going to stop Donald Trump from stroking his ego to the point of orgasm by being the President who formally recognized Jerusalem as Israel's capitol.
Hamas clearly meant to breach the fence, that was their stated goal for the protests and they brought fence cutters and IEDs for that very purpose. As for preventing the embassy, maybe they didn't think that it was very likely, but nevertheless if there had been a delay, at least Hamas could claim some victory.

Anyway, what exactly do you think is a reasonable goal for the people of Gaza? Israel doesn't recognize their right to any part of Palestine, keeps them penned inside a ghetto, controls their food supply, commerce, and resources, and continues to displace non-Jews in the West Bank. What is a reasonable response to that?
The best thing for the people in Gaza is to protest the restrictions on food, resources and commerce. Best way to do it is non-violent protest and building up their infrastructure. And likewise, the most efficient way for Gazans to help stop the displacement of Palestinians in West Bank is to live well and behave themselves. Every time Hamas fires rockets from Gaza or tries to breach the fence or attacks a checkpoint, the Israeli public is nudged slightly to the side of the settlers, while actually doing nothing to deter the latter. If Gazan show that withdrawal of settlements is met with peace, that would put pressure (albeit not necessarily enough) for Israel to do the same in West Bank.

If Hamas wants to break the blockade, the way to do it is small steps. Don't try to breach the fence, just get closer to the fence and get some of the land back that Israel designated as a no-man's land.

IOW, surrender to their new overlords. Be grateful Israel lets them have food. Be thankful they have electricity for a few hours each day. Don't fight. That will only make things worse. It amazes me sometimes how much Zionist apologetics sounds like what wife beaters and child abusers say to their victims. Behave, do as you're told, don't get uppity, "now look at what you made me do" as they crush any resistance to their absolute rule.

Palestinians who get close to the fence get shot. Palestinians working on their own land get shot. Palestinians get shot walking on a sidewalk, standing in an open area during a peaceful protest, and for no apparent reason.

Your suggestion that they 'live well' assumes they are allowed to live at all. That's not a given. And even if it was, they should 'live well' where? They can't do that while they are slowly being extirpated from their homes in the West Bank or imprisoned in Gaza.
 
You made a sweeping statement about Israel responding to violence with violence, and to calm with calm, that is easily disproven. You claimed it was long-standing policy. That, too, is easily disproven. Israel kidnapped 2 men from Lebanon shortly after the Syrians withdrew and the Israelis thought they could get away with it. Israeli violence was met with Lebanese violence which was met with even more Israeli violence.
I could not find a source for that kidnapping, or when it happened. The best I could find was Hezbollah shelling IDF positions on 29th of June 2005. Was the capture in response to that, or vice versa? If the latter, please provide a source.

In any case, Hezbollah has been attacking IDF intermittently since the Israeli withdrawal from southern Lebanon in 2000. This falls squarely in the category of meeting violence with violence.

Israel's long-standing policy wrt Palestinians is aggression. Theft of land and resources, ethnic cleansing, keeping a captive population confined in Gaza, it's all part of the violence and it's all inherent in the Zionism of guys like Netanyahu and Adelson.
Theft of land and resources and ethnically cleansing west bank is an exception, because Israel wants those things regardless of what Palestinians do about it. And the blockade of Gaza was a response to Hamas violently taking power in Gaza in 2007.

I doubt Hamas seriously attempted to breach the fence, and I highly doubt anyone anywhere thought a demonstration by Palestinians was going to stop Donald Trump from stroking his ego to the point of orgasm by being the President who formally recognized Jerusalem as Israel's capitol.
Hamas clearly meant to breach the fence, that was their stated goal for the protests and they brought fence cutters and IEDs for that very purpose. As for preventing the embassy, maybe they didn't think that it was very likely, but nevertheless if there had been a delay, at least Hamas could claim some victory.

Anyway, what exactly do you think is a reasonable goal for the people of Gaza? Israel doesn't recognize their right to any part of Palestine, keeps them penned inside a ghetto, controls their food supply, commerce, and resources, and continues to displace non-Jews in the West Bank. What is a reasonable response to that?
The best thing for the people in Gaza is to protest the restrictions on food, resources and commerce. Best way to do it is non-violent protest and building up their infrastructure. And likewise, the most efficient way for Gazans to help stop the displacement of Palestinians in West Bank is to live well and behave themselves. Every time Hamas fires rockets from Gaza or tries to breach the fence or attacks a checkpoint, the Israeli public is nudged slightly to the side of the settlers, while actually doing nothing to deter the latter. If Gazan show that withdrawal of settlements is met with peace, that would put pressure (albeit not necessarily enough) for Israel to do the same in West Bank.

If Hamas wants to break the blockade, the way to do it is small steps. Don't try to breach the fence, just get closer to the fence and get some of the land back that Israel designated as a no-man's land.

IOW, surrender to their new overlords. Be grateful Israel lets them have food. Be thankful they have electricity for a few hours each day. Don't fight. That will only make things worse. It amazes me sometimes how much Zionist apologetics sounds like what wife beaters and child abusers say to their victims. Behave, do as you're told, don't get uppity, "now look at what you made me do" as they crush any resistance to their absolute rule.
I didn't say they shouldn't find; but rather they should choose their battles. If they are so keen on food an electricity, why not protest for food and electricity rather than storming the fence? There is no way Israel would ever let them breach the border and run amok in Israel and that's a non-starter.

Previous wars started by Hamas are main reason for the lack of electricity. Power plants and lines tend to get damaged, and that makes Gaza even more dependent on Israeli electricity and fuel. If they had half a brain, they'd be protesting at the Egyptian border and demanding to import more fuel through the Rafah crossing.

Warning shots for approaching the fence.

West Bank.

Part of the recent violent protest organized by Hamas.

The article is behind a pay-wall, but I suspect this happened also in West Bank?

Your suggestion that they 'live well' assumes they are allowed to live at all. That's not a given. And even if it was, they should 'live well' where? They can't do that while they are slowly being extirpated from their homes in the West Bank or imprisoned in Gaza.
I'm talking about Gaza. Of course living well is relative. But seeing what you've got and building up infrastructure and pushing for slow easing of blockade, as well as reclaiming no-man's land would be far more effective than starting a shooting war every 12 to 18 months that turns the entire strip to rubble.
 
Hamas admits that 50 out of 62 dead on Monday were their operatives.
50 of Dead in Gaza Protests Were Hamas Activists, Says Senior Hamas Official
In addition to that, Islamic Jihad admitted that three were their fighters. No word from Fatah and PFLP.

No better proof that we are dealing with "peaceful and unarmed protesters" who are being shot at indiscriminately by the "Zionists" than the fact that the vast majority of the dead are terrorists.
 
Provide the evidence.
Evidence that would satisfy you would be impossible to find.

The fact that they are terrorists does not necessarily mean that they were participating in violent activity this time. That is called reason.
No, that is called being willfully obtuse. And you are almost being a 180° angle!
While I think it highly probable they were violent, that is not evidence that they were.
The evidence is what shows you that it is "highly probable" they were violent. And probability is usually all we have in the real world. That is true in science (using statistics to determine whether study results are good enough to reject the null hypothesis) and law ("beyond a reasonable doubt" is a probabilistic criterion really)
According to Wikipedia, there are up to 50,000 Qassam Brigades (Hamas terror wing) fighters. That is ~5% of adult population of Gaza. To have at least 8 out of 15 dead be Hamas fighters by chance (necessary if you are claiming they were not violent and IDF shot indiscriminately at peaceful protesters), probability would be 0.000018%, which means that the null hypothesis can be safely rejected.
The numbers are even worse for 50/62 from this Monday.

I can understand that you believe they were violent and that you may have reasons (good or bad) for your belief, your belief that they were, in fact, violent does make it so.
So how do you explain the numbers?

That is according to the IDF, hardly a disinterested source.
As opposed to Hamas sources?
Btw,
Sderot homes hit with heavy machine gun fire from Gaza, army says
But of course, you do not believe anything the Israeli army says ...
I don't routinely argue that cellphones or flashes of metal are real threats - you do.
Neither do I. But when chasing a suspect, in the dark, with lots of movement, shiny objects can be mistaken for guns. Pro tip: don't run form police, but if you do, drop anything you are carrying.
Another pro tip: do not try to infiltrate a well-defended border.
 
Evidence that would satisfy you would be impossible to find.
Wrong.
No, that is called being willfully obtuse. And you are almost being a 180° angle!
No, as any fairminded person knows, it is called basic reasoning 101.
The numbers are even worse for 50/62 from this Monday.
Which means 12 were not operatives.

So how do you explain the numbers?
I don't need to explain anything. You are the one who claimed these people necessarily instigated violence. So far, all you have is an inference based on bigoted poor reasoning.

As opposed to Hamas sources?
No. But coming from someone who routinely discounts any claim from a party with vested interested, your hypocrisy in this situation is duly noted.
But of course, you do not believe anything the Israeli army says ...
Not with independent corroboration. Just like I don't believe Hamas says without independent corrobation.
Neither do I. But ...
Thank you for proving my point with your tacit admission. You do in order to defend pointless and needless killing of brown people by state authority.
 
IDF captured a Palestinian protester who says the protest was a Hamas ploy to divert attention from awful humanitarian situation in Gaza:

Ynet news said:
https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-5262718,00.html

Detained rioter says Hamas uses women, children as arms to stay in power

Captured rioter who infiltrated Israel through Gaza border tells IDF interrogators Hamas orchestrated border protests so general public in the strip will not 'turn' on them in light of the dismal humanitarian situation there.

(...)

"Hamas organized the demonstrations so that people would not 'turn' on them," he affirmed, explaining that the humanitarian situation in the strip has gotten so bad that Hamas planned out the March of Return protests to let people blow off steam, and did so in a way that would help their cause.

Their plan, as well as their propaganda, he said, worked.

"Hamas controls everything in the strip. Hamas sends us messages to our Facebook accounts and to our cellphones. They come to mosques handing leaflet saying to go to the fence. When there's electricity, and televisions can be turned on all you can see is the march. People got worn down and bored, and I'm one of those people," he said.

The detainee also seemed to back Israel's assertion that Hamas uses women and children as human shields in the protests.

"They tell women to go forward. They say to the woman: Go ahead, you are a woman, and the Israeli army does not shoot at women. They tell small children: Go ahead, the army does not shoot at small children. They tell a child to go ahead and he goes, it's a little boy. They deceive him," he laments.
Business as usual for Hamas.
 
I could not find a source for that kidnapping, or when it happened. The best I could find was Hezbollah shelling IDF positions on 29th of June 2005. Was the capture in response to that, or vice versa? If the latter, please provide a source.

In any case, Hezbollah has been attacking IDF intermittently since the Israeli withdrawal from southern Lebanon in 2000. This falls squarely in the category of meeting violence with violence.

Israel didn't withdraw from the Sheba'a Farms, recognized as Lebanese territory by both the Lebanese and the international community. Israel hasn't declared it's northern border anymore than its declared its eastern one. Anyway, the current clash has roots in the late 19th century. It is indeed one of violence meeting with violence, and there's no end in sight.

Theft of land and resources and ethnically cleansing west bank is an exception, because Israel wants those things regardless of what Palestinians do about it. And the blockade of Gaza was a response to Hamas violently taking power in Gaza in 2007.

It's not an exception. It's how Israeli Zionists have operated since the 1940s. Heck, it's how European colonists have operated for centuries.

First they sort the indigenous population and decide who can stay and who'll be forced out. The unwanted are forced into reservations or ethnic zones with few resources and almost no economic development that isn't controlled by the colonizers, with barriers and separation walls to keep them penned and powerless. Then comes the excuses for why it's okay for the colonizers to imprison an entire population that way, with all the crying and hand-wringing about how much the 'backwards' people on the reservations hate their benefactors who oh-so-generously allow them to have food and water out of the goodness of their hearts.

You think the establishment of a walled off ghetto full of unwanted Semitic people is something new? You think their decision to protest, to fight, to try to escape is wrongheaded or foolish? I think it follows a well known pattern.

I doubt Hamas seriously attempted to breach the fence, and I highly doubt anyone anywhere thought a demonstration by Palestinians was going to stop Donald Trump from stroking his ego to the point of orgasm by being the President who formally recognized Jerusalem as Israel's capitol.
Hamas clearly meant to breach the fence, that was their stated goal for the protests and they brought fence cutters and IEDs for that very purpose. As for preventing the embassy, maybe they didn't think that it was very likely, but nevertheless if there had been a delay, at least Hamas could claim some victory.

Anyway, what exactly do you think is a reasonable goal for the people of Gaza? Israel doesn't recognize their right to any part of Palestine, keeps them penned inside a ghetto, controls their food supply, commerce, and resources, and continues to displace non-Jews in the West Bank. What is a reasonable response to that?
The best thing for the people in Gaza is to protest the restrictions on food, resources and commerce. Best way to do it is non-violent protest and building up their infrastructure. And likewise, the most efficient way for Gazans to help stop the displacement of Palestinians in West Bank is to live well and behave themselves. Every time Hamas fires rockets from Gaza or tries to breach the fence or attacks a checkpoint, the Israeli public is nudged slightly to the side of the settlers, while actually doing nothing to deter the latter. If Gazan show that withdrawal of settlements is met with peace, that would put pressure (albeit not necessarily enough) for Israel to do the same in West Bank.

If Hamas wants to break the blockade, the way to do it is small steps. Don't try to breach the fence, just get closer to the fence and get some of the land back that Israel designated as a no-man's land.

IOW, surrender to their new overlords. Be grateful Israel lets them have food. Be thankful they have electricity for a few hours each day. Don't fight. That will only make things worse. It amazes me sometimes how much Zionist apologetics sounds like what wife beaters and child abusers say to their victims. Behave, do as you're told, don't get uppity, "now look at what you made me do" as they crush any resistance to their absolute rule.
I didn't say they shouldn't find; but rather they should choose their battles. If they are so keen on food an electricity, why not protest for food and electricity rather than storming the fence? There is no way Israel would ever let them breach the border and run amok in Israel and that's a non-starter.

Previous wars started by Hamas are main reason for the lack of electricity. Power plants and lines tend to get damaged, and that makes Gaza even more dependent on Israeli electricity and fuel. If they had half a brain, they'd be protesting at the Egyptian border and demanding to import more fuel through the Rafah crossing.

Been there, done that.

Your suggestion of Palestinians getting better conditions through peaceful demonstrations and forswearing violence would be a lot more convincing if that was actually happening in the West Bank. But since all it seems to be doing is making it easier for Zionists to take over more and more land, it looks more like wishful thinking than anything reality based.


Palestinians murdered by Israelis. You think the Gazans are any safer?


So, it's okay to shoot people standing in an open area during a peaceful protest if you just call it a violent protest? Or are you equating the peaceful guy with a violent guy because of his national origin?

The article is behind a pay-wall, but I suspect this happened also in West Bank?

It's another case of a Palestinian who was minding his own business but was murdered by Israelis anyway.

You want to make the case that Palestinians will be safe from harm as long as they're peaceful. But that's not the reality. They aren't safe from harm even when they aren't edging in close to the separation wall as you suggest.

Your suggestion that they 'live well' assumes they are allowed to live at all. That's not a given. And even if it was, they should 'live well' where? They can't do that while they are slowly being extirpated from their homes in the West Bank or imprisoned in Gaza.
I'm talking about Gaza. Of course living well is relative. But seeing what you've got and building up infrastructure and pushing for slow easing of blockade, as well as reclaiming no-man's land would be far more effective than starting a shooting war every 12 to 18 months that turns the entire strip to rubble.

They can't build up their infrastructure unless Israel allows it. Israel doesn't allow it.

Gaza has off-shore natural gas deposits. Do you honestly think the Israelis will allow them to develop those resources on their own, to their own benefit, and charge Israelis fair market price for it?

Gaza grows flowers and produce for the European market. Do you honestly think Israel allows them to control that trade, to choose their own trading partners and negotiate their own contracts freely, to ship their goods to market and receive payment without obstacles or interference?

It doesn't happen that way. Just like Israel doesn't allow the Palestinians to control their own water supplies. Everything goes through Israeli businesses or Israeli government agencies, for the benefit Israelis, just like every attempt to improve life on the Reservations here in the US went through white owned companies and the BIA. It's going to take more than a cheerful, positive, Pollyanna attitude to change that.
 
Last edited:
I could not find a source for that kidnapping, or when it happened. The best I could find was Hezbollah shelling IDF positions on 29th of June 2005. Was the capture in response to that, or vice versa? If the latter, please provide a source.

In any case, Hezbollah has been attacking IDF intermittently since the Israeli withdrawal from southern Lebanon in 2000. This falls squarely in the category of meeting violence with violence.
Israel didn't withdraw from the Sheba'a Farms, recognized as Lebanese territory by both the Lebanese and the international community. Israel hasn't declared it's northern border anymore than its declared its eastern one.
No, the Shebaa farms are Syrian territory and part of Golan. Neither Syria nor UN considers the land Lebanese. Only reason why Hezbollah does so is that they can keep up the "resistance" mythos for their own political reasons even after the Israeli withdrawal.

Theft of land and resources and ethnically cleansing west bank is an exception, because Israel wants those things regardless of what Palestinians do about it. And the blockade of Gaza was a response to Hamas violently taking power in Gaza in 2007.

It's not an exception. It's how Israeli Zionists have operated since the 1940s. Heck, it's how European colonists have operated for centuries.
To be clear, when I said "long-standing policy" I'm talking about past decade or so. Not ancient history.

First they sort the indigenous population and decide who can stay and who'll be forced out. The unwanted are forced into reservations or ethnic zones with few resources and almost no economic development that isn't controlled by the colonizers, with barriers and separation walls to keep them penned and powerless. Then comes the excuses for why it's okay for the colonizers to imprison an entire population that way, with all the crying and hand-wringing about how much the 'backwards' people on the reservations hate their benefactors who oh-so-generously allow them to have food and water out of the goodness of their hearts.

You think the establishment of a walled off ghetto full of unwanted Semitic people is something new? You think their decision to protest, to fight, to try to escape is wrongheaded or foolish? I think it follows a well known pattern.
If the people in Gaza wanted to escape, Egypt would be a better destination than Israel.

Anyway, what exactly do you think is a reasonable goal for the people of Gaza? Israel doesn't recognize their right to any part of Palestine, keeps them penned inside a ghetto, controls their food supply, commerce, and resources, and continues to displace non-Jews in the West Bank. What is a reasonable response to that?
The best thing for the people in Gaza is to protest the restrictions on food, resources and commerce. Best way to do it is non-violent protest and building up their infrastructure. And likewise, the most efficient way for Gazans to help stop the displacement of Palestinians in West Bank is to live well and behave themselves. Every time Hamas fires rockets from Gaza or tries to breach the fence or attacks a checkpoint, the Israeli public is nudged slightly to the side of the settlers, while actually doing nothing to deter the latter. If Gazan show that withdrawal of settlements is met with peace, that would put pressure (albeit not necessarily enough) for Israel to do the same in West Bank.

If Hamas wants to break the blockade, the way to do it is small steps. Don't try to breach the fence, just get closer to the fence and get some of the land back that Israel designated as a no-man's land.

IOW, surrender to their new overlords. Be grateful Israel lets them have food. Be thankful they have electricity for a few hours each day. Don't fight. That will only make things worse. It amazes me sometimes how much Zionist apologetics sounds like what wife beaters and child abusers say to their victims. Behave, do as you're told, don't get uppity, "now look at what you made me do" as they crush any resistance to their absolute rule.
I didn't say they shouldn't find; but rather they should choose their battles. If they are so keen on food an electricity, why not protest for food and electricity rather than storming the fence? There is no way Israel would ever let them breach the border and run amok in Israel and that's a non-starter.

Previous wars started by Hamas are main reason for the lack of electricity. Power plants and lines tend to get damaged, and that makes Gaza even more dependent on Israeli electricity and fuel. If they had half a brain, they'd be protesting at the Egyptian border and demanding to import more fuel through the Rafah crossing.

Been there, done that.

Your suggestion of Palestinians getting better conditions through peaceful demonstrations and forswearing violence would be a lot more convincing if that was actually happening in the West Bank. But since all it seems to be doing is making it easier for Zionists to take over more and more land, it looks more like wishful thinking than anything reality based.
The people in West Bank undeniably do have better living conditions than Gaza. And risk of zionists taking more land is not likely to occur in Gaza. All in all, Gaza is in a lot better position than West Bank in a lot of ways: they have access to Egypt not patrolled by Israel, they have access to mediterranean (sans blockade), the border fence with Israel is actually at the internationally recognized border, and they have no internal checkpoints or Israeli settlers.


Palestinians murdered by Israelis. You think the Gazans are any safer?
Yes.


So, it's okay to shoot people standing in an open area during a peaceful protest if you just call it a violent protest? Or are you equating the peaceful guy with a violent guy because of his national origin?
When you participate in a violent riot, even if you yourself don't happen to do anything but stand around, there is a chance of getting hit as collateral damage. And that's assuming this guy wasn't doing anything else, a claim that should be taken with a grain of salt given that considerable majority of the victims were Hamas members.

The article is behind a pay-wall, but I suspect this happened also in West Bank?

It's another case of a Palestinian who was minding his own business but was murdered by Israelis anyway.

You want to make the case that Palestinians will be safe from harm as long as they're peaceful. But that's not the reality. They aren't safe from harm even when they aren't edging in close to the separation wall as you suggest.
And that's why it's important to make the distinction between West Bank and Gaza. In latter, there are far more many places where either Israeli settlers or soldiers may bump into Palestinians.

Your suggestion that they 'live well' assumes they are allowed to live at all. That's not a given. And even if it was, they should 'live well' where? They can't do that while they are slowly being extirpated from their homes in the West Bank or imprisoned in Gaza.
I'm talking about Gaza. Of course living well is relative. But seeing what you've got and building up infrastructure and pushing for slow easing of blockade, as well as reclaiming no-man's land would be far more effective than starting a shooting war every 12 to 18 months that turns the entire strip to rubble.

They can't build up their infrastructure unless Israel allows it. Israel doesn't allow it.

Gaza has off-shore natural gas deposits. Do you honestly think the Israelis will allow them to develop those resources on their own, to their own benefit, and charge Israelis fair market price for it?
How does storming the fence help with that?

Gaza grows flowers and produce for the European market. Do you honestly think Israel allows them to control that trade, to choose their own trading partners and negotiate their own contracts freely, to ship their goods to market and receive payment without obstacles or interference?
How does storming the fence help with that?

It doesn't happen that way. Just like Israel doesn't allow the Palestinians to control their own water supplies. Everything goes through Israeli businesses or Israeli government agencies, for the benefit Israelis, just like every attempt to improve life on the Reservations here in the US went through white owned companies and the BIA. It's going to take more than a cheerful, positive, Pollyanna attitude to change that.
And storming the fence is supposed to change it, how exactly?
 
Which means 12 were not operatives.
Not of Hamas. Three belonged to splitter groups."]Islamic Jihad terrorist wing[/URL].
One of them was 16. Which means than in the eyes of anti-Israel propaganda he was just an "innocent child" or something.
We do not know how many belonged to terrorist wings of Fatah, PFLP and smaller splitter groups.

52/61 is a vast majority. And that does not mean none of the other 9 were not involved in violence either.

I don't need to explain anything. You are the one who claimed these people necessarily instigated violence. So far, all you have is an inference based on bigoted poor reasoning.
I have an inference based on facts on the ground and background facts about Hamas and Gaza. And you obviously have no idea what "bigoted" means.
Again, explain the numbers.
Thank you for proving my point with your tacit admission.
You have evidently also forgotten what "no" means. It does not mean an admission, tacit or otherwise.

- - - Updated - - -

The place is truly dangerous for irony meters.
Especially with you around to set them off all the time.
 
52/61 is a vast majority.
So what. That is not evidence that they
1) initiated violence, or 2) participated in violence. Basically your argument is "Hamas is violent. These people are Hamas. Ergo, they must have been violent". That is fine as an inference, but it is not evidence. Please try to use some reason for a change.
And that does not mean none of the other 9 were not involved in violence either.
Basic reason indicates it doesn't mean they were either. Please try to use some reason for a change.

I have an inference based on facts on the ground and background facts about Hamas and Gaza. And you obviously have no idea what "bigoted" means.
I know an inference pulled out of a bigoted ass when I see it.
You have evidently also forgotten what "no" means. It does not mean an admission, tacit or otherwise.
You used a “No, but” which means you gave an excuse which is a tacit admission by exception. If you were familiar with reason, you’d know that. Please try to use some reason for a change.

Especially with you around to set them off all the time.
Projection is form of narcissism not analysis.
 
No, the Shebaa farms are Syrian territory and part of Golan. Neither Syria nor UN considers the land Lebanese. Only reason why Hezbollah does so is that they can keep up the "resistance" mythos for their own political reasons even after the Israeli withdrawal.

The Sheba'a Farms were part of the Ottoman Empire, and there was no dispute over administration until the Empire fell. It became part of the French Mandate for Syria and Lebanon, not the British Mandate for Palestine. In the 1920s and 1930s that area paid taxes to the government of Lebanon and in the 1940s and 1950s the government of Lebanon was the one issuing land deeds there. It wasn't until the 1950s that the Syrians took over. In any event, it was not part of the (grossly unfair) Partition Plan that gave tacit approval for the creation of a Jewish State in Palestine. Israel has no legitimate claim to it, no matter how much anyone wants to quibble over whether it truly belongs to Lebanon or Syria.

The Israelis claim to have annexed the Farms. The Lebanese, the Syrians, and the international community considers that an illegal act of outright theft. Saying Israel withdrew from Southern Lebanon isn't entirely accurate as long as Israel occupies the Sheba'a Farms and plants colonies there.

Theft of land and resources and ethnically cleansing west bank is an exception, because Israel wants those things regardless of what Palestinians do about it. And the blockade of Gaza was a response to Hamas violently taking power in Gaza in 2007.

It's not an exception. It's how Israeli Zionists have operated since the 1940s. Heck, it's how European colonists have operated for centuries.
To be clear, when I said "long-standing policy" I'm talking about past decade or so. Not ancient history.

Then you should say "recent policy".

First they sort the indigenous population and decide who can stay and who'll be forced out. The unwanted are forced into reservations or ethnic zones with few resources and almost no economic development that isn't controlled by the colonizers, with barriers and separation walls to keep them penned and powerless. Then comes the excuses for why it's okay for the colonizers to imprison an entire population that way, with all the crying and hand-wringing about how much the 'backwards' people on the reservations hate their benefactors who oh-so-generously allow them to have food and water out of the goodness of their hearts.

You think the establishment of a walled off ghetto full of unwanted Semitic people is something new? You think their decision to protest, to fight, to try to escape is wrongheaded or foolish? I think it follows a well known pattern.
If the people in Gaza wanted to escape, Egypt would be a better destination than Israel.

What if they want to go home? What if they want their human rights respected and upheld? What if they don't want to start over with absolutely nothing in a place where they never lived, and resent having to due to the blatant racism and religious bigotry that demands they remain separate from Jews in Israel?

You are talking about the ethnic cleansing of Palestine. You are openly supporting it. And that's interesting because I don't think you are in favor of ethnic cleansing or state sponsored bigotry in general.

You don't appear to support white supremacists and segregationists who want to keep blacks out of their neighborhoods and Native Americans confined to reservations, or to purge Tutsis from Hutu areas, or to banish the Armenians from Kosovo. Why are you arguing that the Palestinians should leave their homeland and cede it to the Israelis? Why do you support ethnic cleansing in Palestine?

Anyway, what exactly do you think is a reasonable goal for the people of Gaza? Israel doesn't recognize their right to any part of Palestine, keeps them penned inside a ghetto, controls their food supply, commerce, and resources, and continues to displace non-Jews in the West Bank. What is a reasonable response to that?
The best thing for the people in Gaza is to protest the restrictions on food, resources and commerce. Best way to do it is non-violent protest and building up their infrastructure. And likewise, the most efficient way for Gazans to help stop the displacement of Palestinians in West Bank is to live well and behave themselves. Every time Hamas fires rockets from Gaza or tries to breach the fence or attacks a checkpoint, the Israeli public is nudged slightly to the side of the settlers, while actually doing nothing to deter the latter. If Gazan show that withdrawal of settlements is met with peace, that would put pressure (albeit not necessarily enough) for Israel to do the same in West Bank.

If Hamas wants to break the blockade, the way to do it is small steps. Don't try to breach the fence, just get closer to the fence and get some of the land back that Israel designated as a no-man's land.

IOW, surrender to their new overlords. Be grateful Israel lets them have food. Be thankful they have electricity for a few hours each day. Don't fight. That will only make things worse. It amazes me sometimes how much Zionist apologetics sounds like what wife beaters and child abusers say to their victims. Behave, do as you're told, don't get uppity, "now look at what you made me do" as they crush any resistance to their absolute rule.
I didn't say they shouldn't find; but rather they should choose their battles. If they are so keen on food an electricity, why not protest for food and electricity rather than storming the fence? There is no way Israel would ever let them breach the border and run amok in Israel and that's a non-starter.

Previous wars started by Hamas are main reason for the lack of electricity. Power plants and lines tend to get damaged, and that makes Gaza even more dependent on Israeli electricity and fuel. If they had half a brain, they'd be protesting at the Egyptian border and demanding to import more fuel through the Rafah crossing.

Been there, done that.

Your suggestion of Palestinians getting better conditions through peaceful demonstrations and forswearing violence would be a lot more convincing if that was actually happening in the West Bank. But since all it seems to be doing is making it easier for Zionists to take over more and more land, it looks more like wishful thinking than anything reality based.
The people in West Bank undeniably do have better living conditions than Gaza. And risk of zionists taking more land is not likely to occur in Gaza. All in all, Gaza is in a lot better position than West Bank in a lot of ways: they have access to Egypt not patrolled by Israel, they have access to mediterranean (sans blockade), the border fence with Israel is actually at the internationally recognized border, and they have no internal checkpoints or Israeli settlers.

The Palestinian people of the West Bank are being crowded into ever shrinking strips of land, surrounded by IDF forces and separation barriers, with Jews-only communities being built on land stolen from them. If this pattern doesn't change in the near future they will be in the exact same position as the people of Gaza - trapped into an economically depressed enclave surrounded by barriers and barbed wire, dependent on the Israeli government for food, water, electricity, etc.

It's the same series of steps that led to the creation of the Gaza Strip and the imprisonment of the population. All that's missing are the truckloads of refugees literally dumped on the Palestinian side by Zionists seeking to remove them from anything valuable enough to claim for Israel.

If your suggestion of peaceful demonstrations and 'living well' was a viable plan then the West Bank Palestinians wouldn't still be subject to removal by Israelis, or having their orchards uprooted and burned, or having their wells confiscated and destroyed.


Which you suggest they should do as they reclaim no-man's-land.


Palestinians murdered by Israelis. You think the Gazans are any safer?
Yes.


So, it's okay to shoot people standing in an open area during a peaceful protest if you just call it a violent protest? Or are you equating the peaceful guy with a violent guy because of his national origin?
When you participate in a violent riot, even if you yourself don't happen to do anything but stand around, there is a chance of getting hit as collateral damage. And that's assuming this guy wasn't doing anything else, a claim that should be taken with a grain of salt given that considerable majority of the victims were Hamas members.

He wasn't participating in a violent riot. He posted the video right there in the link I provided. He was just standing there out in the open, no where near to the Israeli position, just talking as he made his recording, when an Israeli sniper shot him.

You say Palestinians should engage in peaceful protest. I highlighted your words to that effect above. But what does it take for a Palestinian to be seen as a peaceful protester by you? In what way was that guy in the video not peacefully protesting?

The article is behind a pay-wall, but I suspect this happened also in West Bank?

It's another case of a Palestinian who was minding his own business but was murdered by Israelis anyway.

You want to make the case that Palestinians will be safe from harm as long as they're peaceful. But that's not the reality. They aren't safe from harm even when they aren't edging in close to the separation wall as you suggest.
And that's why it's important to make the distinction between West Bank and Gaza. In latter, there are far more many places where either Israeli settlers or soldiers may bump into Palestinians.

Your suggestion that they 'live well' assumes they are allowed to live at all. That's not a given. And even if it was, they should 'live well' where? They can't do that while they are slowly being extirpated from their homes in the West Bank or imprisoned in Gaza.
I'm talking about Gaza. Of course living well is relative. But seeing what you've got and building up infrastructure and pushing for slow easing of blockade, as well as reclaiming no-man's land would be far more effective than starting a shooting war every 12 to 18 months that turns the entire strip to rubble.

They can't build up their infrastructure unless Israel allows it. Israel doesn't allow it.

Gaza has off-shore natural gas deposits. Do you honestly think the Israelis will allow them to develop those resources on their own, to their own benefit, and charge Israelis fair market price for it?
How does storming the fence help with that?

Gaza grows flowers and produce for the European market. Do you honestly think Israel allows them to control that trade, to choose their own trading partners and negotiate their own contracts freely, to ship their goods to market and receive payment without obstacles or interference?
How does storming the fence help with that?

It doesn't happen that way. Just like Israel doesn't allow the Palestinians to control their own water supplies. Everything goes through Israeli businesses or Israeli government agencies, for the benefit Israelis, just like every attempt to improve life on the Reservations here in the US went through white owned companies and the BIA. It's going to take more than a cheerful, positive, Pollyanna attitude to change that.
And storming the fence is supposed to change it, how exactly?

By making it harder for people like you to ignore the gross violation of human rights and the undiluted bigotry at the heart of Israeli policies towards Palestinians.

People are trapped in Gaza because racists and religious bigots want their land but don't want them. The US supports it because racists and religious bigots have enough influence in Congress to make it so, and because it's profitable. That could change if enough people care about the situation in Gaza to change it. But no one will care if no one even notices.
 
The Sheba'a Farms were part of the Ottoman Empire, and there was no dispute over administration until the Empire fell. It became part of the French Mandate for Syria and Lebanon, not the British Mandate for Palestine. In the 1920s and 1930s that area paid taxes to the government of Lebanon and in the 1940s and 1950s the government of Lebanon was the one issuing land deeds there. It wasn't until the 1950s that the Syrians took over. In any event, it was not part of the (grossly unfair) Partition Plan that gave tacit approval for the creation of a Jewish State in Palestine. Israel has no legitimate claim to it, no matter how much anyone wants to quibble over whether it truly belongs to Lebanon or Syria.

The Israelis claim to have annexed the Farms. The Lebanese, the Syrians, and the international community considers that an illegal act of outright theft. Saying Israel withdrew from Southern Lebanon isn't entirely accurate as long as Israel occupies the Sheba'a Farms and plants colonies there.

Theft of land and resources and ethnically cleansing west bank is an exception, because Israel wants those things regardless of what Palestinians do about it. And the blockade of Gaza was a response to Hamas violently taking power in Gaza in 2007.

It's not an exception. It's how Israeli Zionists have operated since the 1940s. Heck, it's how European colonists have operated for centuries.
To be clear, when I said "long-standing policy" I'm talking about past decade or so. Not ancient history.

Then you should say "recent policy".

First they sort the indigenous population and decide who can stay and who'll be forced out. The unwanted are forced into reservations or ethnic zones with few resources and almost no economic development that isn't controlled by the colonizers, with barriers and separation walls to keep them penned and powerless. Then comes the excuses for why it's okay for the colonizers to imprison an entire population that way, with all the crying and hand-wringing about how much the 'backwards' people on the reservations hate their benefactors who oh-so-generously allow them to have food and water out of the goodness of their hearts.

You think the establishment of a walled off ghetto full of unwanted Semitic people is something new? You think their decision to protest, to fight, to try to escape is wrongheaded or foolish? I think it follows a well known pattern.
If the people in Gaza wanted to escape, Egypt would be a better destination than Israel.

What if they want to go home? What if they want their human rights respected and upheld? What if they don't want to start over with absolutely nothing in a place where they never lived, and resent having to due to the blatant racism and religious bigotry that demands they remain separate from Jews in Israel?

You are talking about the ethnic cleansing of Palestine. You are openly supporting it. And that's interesting because I don't think you are in favor of ethnic cleansing or state sponsored bigotry in general.

You don't appear to support white supremacists and segregationists who want to keep blacks out of their neighborhoods and Native Americans confined to reservations, or to purge Tutsis from Hutu areas, or to banish the Armenians from Kosovo. Why are you arguing that the Palestinians should leave their homeland and cede it to the Israelis? Why do you support ethnic cleansing in Palestine?

Anyway, what exactly do you think is a reasonable goal for the people of Gaza? Israel doesn't recognize their right to any part of Palestine, keeps them penned inside a ghetto, controls their food supply, commerce, and resources, and continues to displace non-Jews in the West Bank. What is a reasonable response to that?
The best thing for the people in Gaza is to protest the restrictions on food, resources and commerce. Best way to do it is non-violent protest and building up their infrastructure. And likewise, the most efficient way for Gazans to help stop the displacement of Palestinians in West Bank is to live well and behave themselves. Every time Hamas fires rockets from Gaza or tries to breach the fence or attacks a checkpoint, the Israeli public is nudged slightly to the side of the settlers, while actually doing nothing to deter the latter. If Gazan show that withdrawal of settlements is met with peace, that would put pressure (albeit not necessarily enough) for Israel to do the same in West Bank.

If Hamas wants to break the blockade, the way to do it is small steps. Don't try to breach the fence, just get closer to the fence and get some of the land back that Israel designated as a no-man's land.

IOW, surrender to their new overlords. Be grateful Israel lets them have food. Be thankful they have electricity for a few hours each day. Don't fight. That will only make things worse. It amazes me sometimes how much Zionist apologetics sounds like what wife beaters and child abusers say to their victims. Behave, do as you're told, don't get uppity, "now look at what you made me do" as they crush any resistance to their absolute rule.
I didn't say they shouldn't find; but rather they should choose their battles. If they are so keen on food an electricity, why not protest for food and electricity rather than storming the fence? There is no way Israel would ever let them breach the border and run amok in Israel and that's a non-starter.

Previous wars started by Hamas are main reason for the lack of electricity. Power plants and lines tend to get damaged, and that makes Gaza even more dependent on Israeli electricity and fuel. If they had half a brain, they'd be protesting at the Egyptian border and demanding to import more fuel through the Rafah crossing.

Been there, done that.

Your suggestion of Palestinians getting better conditions through peaceful demonstrations and forswearing violence would be a lot more convincing if that was actually happening in the West Bank. But since all it seems to be doing is making it easier for Zionists to take over more and more land, it looks more like wishful thinking than anything reality based.
The people in West Bank undeniably do have better living conditions than Gaza. And risk of zionists taking more land is not likely to occur in Gaza. All in all, Gaza is in a lot better position than West Bank in a lot of ways: they have access to Egypt not patrolled by Israel, they have access to mediterranean (sans blockade), the border fence with Israel is actually at the internationally recognized border, and they have no internal checkpoints or Israeli settlers.

The Palestinian people of the West Bank are being crowded into ever shrinking strips of land, surrounded by IDF forces and separation barriers, with Jews-only communities being built on land stolen from them. If this pattern doesn't change in the near future they will be in the exact same position as the people of Gaza - trapped into an economically depressed enclave surrounded by barriers and barbed wire, dependent on the Israeli government for food, water, electricity, etc.

It's the same series of steps that led to the creation of the Gaza Strip and the imprisonment of the population. All that's missing are the truckloads of refugees literally dumped on the Palestinian side by Zionists seeking to remove them from anything valuable enough to claim for Israel.

If your suggestion of peaceful demonstrations and 'living well' was a viable plan then the West Bank Palestinians wouldn't still be subject to removal by Israelis, or having their orchards uprooted and burned, or having their wells confiscated and destroyed.


Which you suggest they should do as they reclaim no-man's-land.


Palestinians murdered by Israelis. You think the Gazans are any safer?
Yes.


So, it's okay to shoot people standing in an open area during a peaceful protest if you just call it a violent protest? Or are you equating the peaceful guy with a violent guy because of his national origin?
When you participate in a violent riot, even if you yourself don't happen to do anything but stand around, there is a chance of getting hit as collateral damage. And that's assuming this guy wasn't doing anything else, a claim that should be taken with a grain of salt given that considerable majority of the victims were Hamas members.

He wasn't participating in a violent riot. He posted the video right there in the link I provided. He was just standing there out in the open, no where near to the Israeli position, just talking as he made his recording, when an Israeli sniper shot him.

You say Palestinians should engage in peaceful protest. I highlighted your words to that effect above. But what does it take for a Palestinian to be seen as a peaceful protester by you? In what way was that guy in the video not peacefully protesting?

The article is behind a pay-wall, but I suspect this happened also in West Bank?

It's another case of a Palestinian who was minding his own business but was murdered by Israelis anyway.

You want to make the case that Palestinians will be safe from harm as long as they're peaceful. But that's not the reality. They aren't safe from harm even when they aren't edging in close to the separation wall as you suggest.
And that's why it's important to make the distinction between West Bank and Gaza. In latter, there are far more many places where either Israeli settlers or soldiers may bump into Palestinians.

Your suggestion that they 'live well' assumes they are allowed to live at all. That's not a given. And even if it was, they should 'live well' where? They can't do that while they are slowly being extirpated from their homes in the West Bank or imprisoned in Gaza.
I'm talking about Gaza. Of course living well is relative. But seeing what you've got and building up infrastructure and pushing for slow easing of blockade, as well as reclaiming no-man's land would be far more effective than starting a shooting war every 12 to 18 months that turns the entire strip to rubble.

They can't build up their infrastructure unless Israel allows it. Israel doesn't allow it.

Gaza has off-shore natural gas deposits. Do you honestly think the Israelis will allow them to develop those resources on their own, to their own benefit, and charge Israelis fair market price for it?
How does storming the fence help with that?

Gaza grows flowers and produce for the European market. Do you honestly think Israel allows them to control that trade, to choose their own trading partners and negotiate their own contracts freely, to ship their goods to market and receive payment without obstacles or interference?
How does storming the fence help with that?

It doesn't happen that way. Just like Israel doesn't allow the Palestinians to control their own water supplies. Everything goes through Israeli businesses or Israeli government agencies, for the benefit Israelis, just like every attempt to improve life on the Reservations here in the US went through white owned companies and the BIA. It's going to take more than a cheerful, positive, Pollyanna attitude to change that.
And storming the fence is supposed to change it, how exactly?

By making it harder for people like you to ignore the gross violation of human rights and the undiluted bigotry at the heart of Israeli policies towards Palestinians.

People are trapped in Gaza because racists and religious bigots want their land but don't want them. The US supports it because racists and religious bigots have enough influence in Congress to make it so, and because it's profitable. That could change if enough people care about the situation in Gaza to change it. But no one will care if no one even notices.

It smacks of the same insensitivity as the U.S. had for Rwanda, Darfur, and the Congo. No profit in these people....no interest. Doesn't that fit the classic description of Capitalism?
 
This sudden drop in violence confirms two facts that should have been obvious all along:

1) Hamas decides the level of violence used in the protests, and the deaths are due to their decision, not happenstance or inability to control the extremists.

Objection: Since it's orchestrated I don't really think "protests" is the right word.

2) Israel responds to violence with violence, and to calm with calm, as is their long-standing policy.

Something the left will never recognize because that goes against the narrative.

All in all, the six-week protests were mostly a failure to Hamas. They failed to breach the fence, they failed to stop or delay the US embassy opening in Jerusalem, and the international community is lukewarm at best responding to the death toll. Maybe if they had curbed the violence from the start and set themselves more reasonable goals, for example reclaiming part of the no-mans's land, the outcome could have been different.

Actually, they breached it more than once--they just weren't able to exploit the breaches. The IDF wasn't distracted, the breachers were met with sniper fire. And the real reason they quit is that they saw that they weren't going to be able to kidnap anyone. They lost 50 (by their own admission, not IDF data) in that last big push.
 
Except when it doesn't. Remember that year long ceasefire when Hamas first came to power in Gaza that was broken when Israel sent in a strike team that killed about a half dozen Gazans? Remember when the IDF kidnapped those two guys in Lebanon and when Hezbollah grabbed Israeli soldiers in response Israel went berserk and started a war? Remember when Israel sent undercover cops to join the peaceful demonstrations in the West Bank, and the undercover guys threw rocks so the IDF could use force on the Palestinians?

Mind enlightening us as to what incidents you are referring to?

I doubt Hamas seriously attempted to breach the fence, and I highly doubt anyone anywhere thought a demonstration by Palestinians was going to stop Donald Trump from stroking his ego to the point of orgasm by being the President who formally recognized Jerusalem as Israel's capitol.

The whole point of it was to try to kidnap Jews. That's what the Hamas guys were rehearsing before this.
 
You made a sweeping statement about Israel responding to violence with violence, and to calm with calm, that is easily disproven. You claimed it was long-standing policy. That, too, is easily disproven. Israel kidnapped 2 men from Lebanon shortly after the Syrians withdrew and the Israelis thought they could get away with it. Israeli violence was met with Lebanese violence which was met with even more Israeli violence.

I note that you are ignoring the rebutting of your first claim and still beating the drum about the second because we don't recall it.

Your suggestion that they 'live well' assumes they are allowed to live at all. That's not a given. And even if it was, they should 'live well' where? They can't do that while they are slowly being extirpated from their homes in the West Bank or imprisoned in Gaza.

They were "living well" (highest standard of living for Arabs without oil) before they took the path of violence.
 
So what. That is not evidence that they
1) initiated violence, or 2) participated in violence. Basically your argument is "Hamas is violent. These people are Hamas. Ergo, they must have been violent". That is fine as an inference, but it is not evidence. Please try to use some reason for a change.
Basic reason indicates it doesn't mean they were either. Please try to use some reason for a change.

You're the one not using reason.

They aren't in uniform, Israel can't identify them through a sniper scope. For 53 of 62 to be random chance is up there with the standard creationist example of unsmashing a watch. The only reasonable conclusion is that they were targeted based on their behavior--trying to breach the fence.
 
Except when it doesn't. Remember that year long ceasefire when Hamas first came to power in Gaza that was broken when Israel sent in a strike team that killed about a half dozen Gazans? Remember when the IDF kidnapped those two guys in Lebanon and when Hezbollah grabbed Israeli soldiers in response Israel went berserk and started a war? Remember when Israel sent undercover cops to join the peaceful demonstrations in the West Bank, and the undercover guys threw rocks so the IDF could use force on the Palestinians?

Mind enlightening us as to what incidents you are referring to?

I have repeatedly tried to enlighten you through the years. It never seems to work.

You can look up the incidents yourself this time. You can start with the ceasefire between Hamas and Israel when Hamas came to power in Gaza. It's the most recent, and as I recall you were quite adamant in your defense of the raid. Let me know when you remember.

I doubt Hamas seriously attempted to breach the fence, and I highly doubt anyone anywhere thought a demonstration by Palestinians was going to stop Donald Trump from stroking his ego to the point of orgasm by being the President who formally recognized Jerusalem as Israel's capitol.

The whole point of it was to try to kidnap Jews. That's what the Hamas guys were rehearsing before this.

Kidnapping Jews by openly approaching the fence, openly breaching it, walking up to any nearby Jews, picking them up and carrying them off?

Sounds likely.
 
Back
Top Bottom