6:00pm Curfew for men

[Toni]

What does that matter? Here you do what leftists generally do: see people only as fungible ciphers for different groups (men/women, whites/blacks/etc., gay/straight) and not as individuals. Violence against an individual should matter whether they share gender, race and so on with their assailant or not.

Some crimes are committed against victims solely because the victim is a member of a particular demographic.

Even if they are minors, it does not necessarily mean that they are "rape victims". A minor can still make a choice to sell sex without being forced into it by anybody.

Such choice to sell is always criminal. The minor is always a victim under the law.

Now to clarify: I do not think sex work by minors should be allowed, but there is a difference between something not being allowed for protection of said minors, and pretending that minors are incapable of making choices and thus pretending them making an illegal choice is somehow the same as "rape".

It seems that you simply do not like to call rape what it is.

It's almost as though we realize that violence against prostitutes will continue, whether prostitution is legal or not. Maybe because we can read studies that show this to be the fact.

Prohibition is not stopping violence against sex workers either. Prohibition did not stop that piece of shit in Georgia from shooting up all those KAMPs.

Prohibition IS about stopping violence against sex workers.

I have read conflicting reports about the shootings in GA: were the businesses 'massage parlors' covering for sex work or explicitly offering sex for money? Or were they legitimate, not sexual therapeutic massage spas? I honestly do not know.

BUT it seems that no matter what sort of business they were, they were targets of violence by a very deluded individual with a newly purchased gun and ammo.

So why are you so adamant about denying people agency and personal freedoms to engage in consensual sex for money?
In aggregate, prohibition of sex work, just like prohibition of alcohol or weed, does far more harm than good. In addition to that, it is objectionable on basic grounds that in a free society, individual liberty should be respected unless there is a good reason to abridge it and it should be abridged to the least extent feasible.

This isn't a discussion about whether or not prostitution should be legal. I'm not interested in engaging in a derail into such discussion.

 

[Toni]

I do not know where Loren got it, but a 70% stat is in your second quote as well, in the first line ("Seven in 10 adult rapes and sexual assault victims know their attacker prior to the assault."), though that one includes also male victims of rape.

70% in my quote is FOR ADULT RAPES AND SEXUAL ASSAULT VICTIMS.

Unfortunate as it is that anyone is raped, ever, it is even more unfortunate that there are child rape victims as well, who almost always know their attackers. Elderly rape victims are more likely to be raped by strangers. 85-90% of college age victims know their attackers.

Do you see how one demographic differs from others?

You are singling out one demographic, I did not.

You EXCLUDED all but one demographic.

 

[Toni]

No idea where you are getting your 70% stat. It would help if you would provide a link so we can see what you mean.

Here's what I found: https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/most-victims-know-their-attacker


Here is a more complete breakdown in this link:
https://mpdc.dc.gov/page/sexual-ass...rape victims under age 13 knew their attacker.

Seven in 10 adult rapes and sexual assault victims know their attacker prior to the assault.
Rennison 2000.
Only 28% (estimated) of rape/sexual assault victimizations are reported to law enforcement officials.
Rennison 2000.
One in four girls, and one in six boys will be sexually assaulted by the age of 18.
FinKelhor, et. al., 1990.
38% of acquaintance rape victims are 14-17 years old.
Warshaw, 1988.
90% of rape victims under age 13 knew their attacker.

You're not sure where I got my stat and then you present exactly the same stat as a rebuttal??

Not really. You should read more carefully.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

I do not know where Loren got it, but a 70% stat is in your second quote as well, in the first line ("Seven in 10 adult rapes and sexual assault victims know their attacker prior to the assault."), though that one includes also male victims of rape.

70% in my quote is FOR ADULT RAPES AND SEXUAL ASSAULT VICTIMS.

Unfortunate as it is that anyone is raped, ever, it is even more unfortunate that there are child rape victims as well, who almost always know their attackers. Elderly rape victims are more likely to be raped by strangers. 85-90% of college age victims know their attackers.

Do you see how one demographic differs from others?

I can see how they differ (by the way, the 85-90% figure is for sexual assaults reported by college women, not for 85-90% of college age victims), but in the exchange you quoted, Loren was talking about rapes of women, not about rapes of girls. While I do not know whether his source is the same as yours, if he went by yours the 70% would apply.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I do not know where Loren got it, but a 70% stat is in your second quote as well, in the first line ("Seven in 10 adult rapes and sexual assault victims know their attacker prior to the assault."), though that one includes also male victims of rape.

70% in my quote is FOR ADULT RAPES AND SEXUAL ASSAULT VICTIMS.

Unfortunate as it is that anyone is raped, ever, it is even more unfortunate that there are child rape victims as well, who almost always know their attackers. Elderly rape victims are more likely to be raped by strangers. 85-90% of college age victims know their attackers.

Do you see how one demographic differs from others?

I can see how they differ (by the way, the 85-90% figure is for sexual assaults reported by college women, not for 85-90% of college age victims), but in the exchange you quoted, Loren was talking about rapes of women, not about rapes of girls. While I do not know whether his source is the same as yours, if he went by yours the 70% would apply.

It wasn't the same--IIRC I looked it up on Wikipedia. However, I suspect the root source is the same.

And despite the supposed epidemic of campus rape a woman at college is less likely to be raped than one of the same age that didn't go to college.

 

[TomC]

I'm confident that Toni and friends were being hyperbolic. But what I read on this thread was feminists ignoring profound gender bigotry from a government official because it matched their own bigotry. Sounds like that "Basket of Deplorables" I dislike so much.

I’m surprised you decided to write this after Toni clearly and deliberately and repeatedly stated that she was NOT IN FAVOR, she was merely disussing the thought exercise. I think she said it three times. She was clearly not being hyperbolic, she was being contemplative “dscussing the thought exercise”.

Here's an example of the hyperbole I'm talking about

But very interesting and very predictable to see men lose their minds over the loss of any amount of freedom for themselves while happily embracing the loss of freedom of women who seek to protect themselves against crimes. Women: If you don't want to be raped, stay at home where you belong, with your knees together, abstaining from liquor and any other intoxicant and watch your hemlines and necklines! Just....make your man some dinner. Don't have your own man? Well, there's your problem right there. Act right and get yourself one.

Yeah, I consider that hyperbolic. And that's just one example of many.

And yet, you never digested her actual words.

It’s fascinating to watch - you tried to silence her voice. How could you miss that? It was so clear. Yet you had an emotional reaction to her posts, disparaged her for somethign she did not say, and never even realized the words that were in front of your eyes.

Profoundly ignoring, indeed.

I disagree with her a batch of things. But " tried to silence" her is yet more hyperbole.

Here's the thing. What appears to have happened.

A particularly brutal and unsolved crime happened.
The local police strongly recommended people exercise extreme caution, at least until the perp is caught and identified.
A government official made an offhand quip about a curfew for all men.
The quip became newsworthy for some reason.

Standard female security protocols are an unfortunate byproduct of millions of years of evolution. Men have instinctive impulses different from women, and different equipment. Men have stronger instincts towards violence, risk tolerance, and irresponsible sex than women. Most people learn at an early age to start channeling and squelching those sorts of destructive impulses, including men. But the human capacity for such learning is limited and spotty, especially among the young and alcohol impaired.

Recognizing that reality is extremely different from imposing a counter productive collective punishment. Comparing the two things is ridiculous, to be charitable about it.
Tom

 

[Toni]

I can see how they differ (by the way, the 85-90% figure is for sexual assaults reported by college women, not for 85-90% of college age victims), but in the exchange you quoted, Loren was talking about rapes of women, not about rapes of girls. While I do not know whether his source is the same as yours, if he went by yours the 70% would apply.

It wasn't the same--IIRC I looked it up on Wikipedia. However, I suspect the root source is the same.

And despite the supposed epidemic of campus rape a woman at college is less likely to be raped than one of the same age that didn't go to college.

OMG—it’s still an epidemic!

Most breakdowns by demographic groups separate out college AGED women (18-24)

 

[Toni]

Here's an example of the hyperbole I'm talking about

But very interesting and very predictable to see men lose their minds over the loss of any amount of freedom for themselves while happily embracing the loss of freedom of women who seek to protect themselves against crimes. Women: If you don't want to be raped, stay at home where you belong, with your knees together, abstaining from liquor and any other intoxicant and watch your hemlines and necklines! Just....make your man some dinner. Don't have your own man? Well, there's your problem right there. Act right and get yourself one.

Yeah, I consider that hyperbolic. And that's just one example of many.

And yet, you never digested her actual words.

It’s fascinating to watch - you tried to silence her voice. How could you miss that? It was so clear. Yet you had an emotional reaction to her posts, disparaged her for somethign she did not say, and never even realized the words that were in front of your eyes.

Profoundly ignoring, indeed.

I disagree with her a batch of things. But " tried to silence" her is yet more hyperbole.

Here's the thing. What appears to have happened.

A particularly brutal and unsolved crime happened.
The local police strongly recommended people exercise extreme caution, at least until the perp is caught and identified.
A government official made an offhand quip about a curfew for all men.
The quip became newsworthy for some reason.

Standard female security protocols are an unfortunate byproduct of millions of years of evolution. Men have instinctive impulses different from women, and different equipment. Men have stronger instincts towards violence, risk tolerance, and irresponsible sex than women. Most people learn at an early age to start channeling and squelching those sorts of destructive impulses, including men. But the human capacity for such learning is limited and spotty, especially among the young and alcohol impaired.

Recognizing that reality is extremely different from imposing a counter productive collective punishment. Comparing the two things is ridiculous, to be charitable about it.
Tom

Yeah, that’s bullshit. Most men, despite thousands of years of evolution and socialization, manage not to sexually assault or rape women and children or other men.

It ain’t evolution or nature that makes men rape.

 

[Toni]

I do not know where Loren got it, but a 70% stat is in your second quote as well, in the first line ("Seven in 10 adult rapes and sexual assault victims know their attacker prior to the assault."), though that one includes also male victims of rape.

70% in my quote is FOR ADULT RAPES AND SEXUAL ASSAULT VICTIMS.

Unfortunate as it is that anyone is raped, ever, it is even more unfortunate that there are child rape victims as well, who almost always know their attackers. Elderly rape victims are more likely to be raped by strangers. 85-90% of college age victims know their attackers.

Do you see how one demographic differs from others?

I can see how they differ (by the way, the 85-90% figure is for sexual assaults reported by college women, not for 85-90% of college age victims), but in the exchange you quoted, Loren was talking about rapes of women, not about rapes of girls. While I do not know whether his source is the same as yours, if he went by yours the 70% would apply.

And most older women (above) who are raped are raped by strangers.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

I can see how they differ (by the way, the 85-90% figure is for sexual assaults reported by college women, not for 85-90% of college age victims), but in the exchange you quoted, Loren was talking about rapes of women, not about rapes of girls. While I do not know whether his source is the same as yours, if he went by yours the 70% would apply.

And most older women (above) who are raped are raped by strangers.

Yes, that is correct (though I'm not sure what you're getting at here).

 

[TomC]

Yes, that is correct (though I'm not sure what you're getting at here).

I find that a common problem.

In post #168, she managed to both agree with me while asserting that I'm wrong.
Tom

 

[Derec]

Some crimes are committed against victims solely because the victim is a member of a particular demographic.

True, but such crimes are pretty rare.

Such choice to sell is always criminal. The minor is always a victim under the law.

Just because some laws are poorly written does not change the facts. A 17 year old freely choosing to sell sexual services is capable of making that choice whether or not that choice is legal. That person is not a rape victim any more than a 20 year old buying a beer is a victim.

It seems that you simply do not like to call rape what it is.

Wrong. You seem to want to call things that clearly aren't rape "rape".

Prohibition IS about stopping violence against sex workers.

No, it is not. You admitted to that a couple of posts ago where you wrote:

It's almost as though we realize that violence against prostitutes will continue, whether prostitution is legal or not.

Prohibitionism is about controlling what consenting adults may do with their bodies, and therefore it is morally wrong.

I have read conflicting reports about the shootings in GA: were the businesses 'massage parlors' covering for sex work or explicitly offering sex for money? Or were they legitimate, not sexual therapeutic massage spas? I honestly do not know.

They were KAMPs and as such they were pretty much brothels with only a thin veneer of being a massage business.

BUT it seems that no matter what sort of business they were, they were targets of violence by a very deluded individual with a newly purchased gun and ammo.

Well, we can agree on that.

This isn't a discussion about whether or not prostitution should be legal. I'm not interested in engaging in a derail into such discussion.

Hey, you brought it up. I was merely commenting on what you wrote.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I can see how they differ (by the way, the 85-90% figure is for sexual assaults reported by college women, not for 85-90% of college age victims), but in the exchange you quoted, Loren was talking about rapes of women, not about rapes of girls. While I do not know whether his source is the same as yours, if he went by yours the 70% would apply.

It wasn't the same--IIRC I looked it up on Wikipedia. However, I suspect the root source is the same.

And despite the supposed epidemic of campus rape a woman at college is less likely to be raped than one of the same age that didn't go to college.

OMG—it’s still an epidemic!

Most breakdowns by demographic groups separate out college AGED women (18-24)

And the rape rate reported by college age women exceeds the rape rate reported by women in college.

 

[Toni]

True, but such crimes are pretty rare.

Rape is not rare.

Just because some laws are poorly written does not change the facts. A 17 year old freely choosing to sell sexual services is capable of making that choice whether or not that choice is legal. That person is not a rape victim any more than a 20 year old buying a beer is a victim.

Legally, they are victims of rape.

It seems that you simply do not like to call rape what it is.

Wrong. You seem to want to call things that clearly aren't rape "rape".

Clearly I do not. You believe that 17 is old enough to choose to become a prostitute. The law disagrees with you. By law, a 17 year old cannot agree to be a prostitute. Sex with a 17 year old 'prostitute' constitutes rape under the law.

Prohibition IS about stopping violence against sex workers.

No, it is not. You admitted to that a couple of posts ago where you wrote:

It's almost as though we realize that violence against prostitutes will continue, whether prostitution is legal or not.

Nope. Just because something is not 100% effective does not mean that it is not effective.

I would like to reduce/eliminate violence against prostitutes. I assume you would like to do the same. We just don't agree on what is more effective.

Prohibitionism is about controlling what consenting adults may do with their bodies, and therefore it is morally wrong.

Consenting adults is where you lose the argument. After all you are arguing that a 17 year old can consent to be a prostitute. The law says different. Brain science would also disagree with you about whether or not a 17 year old is an adult. Having mature secondary sex characteristics and sex organs is not the same thing as being an adult.

 

[Toni]

OMG—it’s still an epidemic!

Most breakdowns by demographic groups separate out college AGED women (18-24)

And the rape rate reported by college age women exceeds the rape rate reported by women in college.

Yes. Women in college generally have more agency and are less likely to be victimized than are women 18-24 who are more likely to be economically disadvantaged and belong to racial minorities, both risk factors for being victims of all sorts of crimes, including rape.

I'm really not sure what your point here was?

 

[Rhea]

OMG—it’s still an epidemic!

Most breakdowns by demographic groups separate out college AGED women (18-24)

And the rape rate reported by college age women exceeds the rape rate reported by women in college.

Yes. Women in college generally have more agency and are less likely to be victimized than are women 18-24 who are more likely to be economically disadvantaged and belong to racial minorities, both risk factors for being victims of all sorts of crimes, including rape.

I'm really not sure what your point here was?

I wouldn’t be so quick to conclude that. Do we know the report rate of each group? It may be that they report at very different levels.
And a rape is a rape whether it is reported or not, of course. It’s just that it was not reported.

 

[Toni]

Yes. Women in college generally have more agency and are less likely to be victimized than are women 18-24 who are more likely to be economically disadvantaged and belong to racial minorities, both risk factors for being victims of all sorts of crimes, including rape.

I'm really not sure what your point here was?

I wouldn’t be so quick to conclude that. Do we know the report rate of each group? It may be that they report at very different levels.
And a rape is a rape whether it is reported or not, of course. It’s just that it was not reported.

We know that women on campus are often discouraged from reporting rape by college administration, college security, etc.
It has been some years since I read the studies but a quick search pulled up this:

https://www.pcar.org/sites/default/files/pages-pdf/poverty_and_sexual_violence.pdf

It's long but fact sheets start on page 73 with bullet points.

Here's this: https://www.rainn.org/statistics/ca...e-aged students (18,of rape or sexual assault.

It notes that college aged women are LESS likely to be raped compared with similarly aged women who do not attend college. It also reports that young men attending college are MORE likely to report being raped compared with similarly aged young men who do not attend college.

Here's this: https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rsavcaf9513.pdf

T
This report uses the National Crime Victimization
Survey (NCVS) to compare the rape and sexual assault
victimization of female college students and nonstudents.
For the period 1995–2013—

„ The rate of rape and sexual assault was 1.2 times higher
for nonstudents (7.6 per 1,000) than for students (6.1 per
1,000).

„ For both college students and nonstudents, the offender
was known to the victim in about 80% of rape and sexual
assault victimizations.

„ Most (51%) student rape and sexual assault victimizations
occurred while the victim was pursuing leisure activities
away from home, compared to nonstudents who were
engaged in other activities at home (50%) when the
victimization occurred.

„ The offender had a weapon in about 1 in 10 rape and
sexual assault victimizations against both students
and nonstudents.

„ Rape and sexual assault victimizations of students (80%)
were more likely than nonstudent victimizations (67%) to
go unreported to police.

„ About a quarter of student (26%) and nonstudent (23%)
victims who did not report to police believed the incident
was a personal matter, and 1 in 5 (20% each) stated a fear
of reprisal.

„ Student victims (12%) were more likely than nonstudent
victims (5%) to state that the incident was not important
enough to report.

„ Fewer than 1 in 5 female student (16%) and nonstudent
(18%) victims of rape and sexual assault received assistance
from a victim services agency

 

[Loren Pechtel]

OMG—it’s still an epidemic!

Most breakdowns by demographic groups separate out college AGED women (18-24)

And the rape rate reported by college age women exceeds the rape rate reported by women in college.

Yes. Women in college generally have more agency and are less likely to be victimized than are women 18-24 who are more likely to be economically disadvantaged and belong to racial minorities, both risk factors for being victims of all sorts of crimes, including rape.

I'm really not sure what your point here was?

The supposed college rape epidemic does not exist.

 

[laughing dog]

Yes. Women in college generally have more agency and are less likely to be victimized than are women 18-24 who are more likely to be economically disadvantaged and belong to racial minorities, both risk factors for being victims of all sorts of crimes, including rape.

I'm really not sure what your point here was?

The supposed college rape epidemic does not exist.

Your handwaved and unsubstantiated opinion is duly noted.

 

[Derec]

We know that women on campus are often discouraged from reporting rape by college administration, college security, etc.
It has been some years since I read the studies but a quick search pulled up this:

That's just bullshit. Colleges routinely have kangaroo courts where male students are expelled even without any real evidence of guilt.

The Uncomfortable Truth About Campus Rape Policy

And no, people drinking and then fucking is not evidence of rape no matter how much you radfems want it to be.

Note also that for example the infamous Mattress Girl was given class credit from Columbia for basically defaming the student she falsely accused. I do not see any discouragement in that.