7 Habits of Highly Affected Racialists

[Loren Pechtel]

Racism against every race exists in America.

The question is how big a problem it is. I see the actual problem as far smaller than it's made out to be, most "racism" being an excuse for failure, not a cause of it.

Loren,

As much as you need it to be so, it isn't. White folk aren't the victims of racism.

As much as you deny it, we are also the victims of racism.

I consider AA to be a particularly offensive example of it.

Beyond that, though, I have been discriminated against for not being Asian & for not being Chinese.

- - - Updated - - -

As racism defined in the OP (and in sociology), White Americans cannot be the victims of racism while in America.

...OK, to be pedantic, it's possible for a white person to be mildly victimized by racism on the Big Island of Hawaii.

The problem with this is that power is a matter of individuals in situations, not groups.

Just because whites are more likely to be the person in power doesn't mean they always are the person in power.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Throw a rock and all the racialists come scurrying out of the woodwork.

The problem is that the definition is too broad. It catches not only racists but those who don't support the party line that racism is rampant in the US.

 

[Davka]

I refer you to your OP.

I refer you to the multiple posts in this thread which clarify the OP, as well as to the OP itself.

- - - Updated - - -

Indeed it is. Just as constructing a strawman argument is a dishonest rhetorical device. Since nobody here is defining racism is such a way that means only whites can be racist, that makes your remark a strawman.

I refer of course to America -- or can nonWhites be racist in America?

Not according to the definition in the OP. They can, however, be racially bigoted.

Why is this so difficult to grasp?

- - - Updated - - -

Throw a rock and all the racialists come scurrying out of the woodwork.

The problem is that the definition is too broad. It catches not only racists but those who don't support the party line that racism is rampant in the US.

More strawmen. it's really the only defense you have, isn't it?

Hint: "rampant" is your word.

 

[ksen]

One has to wonder, though, if a new and more clear term is used if that will change any of the reactions outlined in the OP. I was thinking maybe it would merely change the argument to being about a new word that can be argued about instead of the political and social agenda of decreasing racial oppression.

MAYBE. Certainly the hardcore racialists and the people whose power is threatened by changing institutions will continue fighting a rearguard action.

I'm concerned with the swayable middle that is hearing "cops are racist!" as opposed to "changing procedures and policies in these ways will make the Black community respect police more, improve policing, and make police safer".

Police are the safest they've been since the 19th century. It's not about making the police safer it's about putting policies and procedures in place to keep civilians safer from the police.

 

[ksen]

A question comes to mind reading this thread. Why is it so hard to admit that racism in America against people who are black (with power, as oppression,) exists? Why so defensive? It's an interesting thing to ponder and watch unfold. Davka's OP neatly highlights several mechanisms by which some people avoid talking about the actual problem, and several posters neatly give examples of how that works. But I wonder _why_. Why is it so hard to address this problem. I mean, I know some of the given reasons, but I think it would be very hard to discuss here or anywhere because whatever the "why," you can't get there without first passing through all of the items in the OP. A tall order, drilling down into why it's so hard to even keep the discussion focused on the real systemic problems.

Just an observation - carry on with the demo.

Racism against every race exists in America.

The question is how big a problem it is. I see the actual problem as far smaller than it's made out to be, most "racism" being an excuse for failure, not a cause of it.

and rightly so!

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Davka, I'm going to play the race card now.

My family is from Los Angeles. When my grandfather married my grandmother it was a scandal. He married outside our group, he married "The Blonde". That is actually what some members of the family called her. She wasn't one of us, she was blonde. Some thought it was horrible that he married outside the group, others congratulated him on marrying up.

My father repeated the scandal when he married my mother, but since he had moved to the east coast by then the effects of the scandal weren't felt except for the times we visited family in SoCal. When we did, people were not quick to warm up to my blonde mother.

Now me. I pass, probably because I'm only 1/4. Nobody batted an eye when I married an Anglo. My daughter even has blue eyes. So I guess you probably say I'm white, even though I don't think of myself that way. I moved back to Los Angeles and people think my kids are white.

And I'm sick to death of all you smug progressives telling me how I feel. I'm sick to death of all you smug progressives telling me what my opinions are on political issues simply because of my genealogy. I find such attitudes to be offensively racist. Even more so than the one weirdo on this board who thinks he should have a right to shoot me solely on the grounds that I'm part minority. He at least is open about his racism. Smug progressives like yourself think you are being anti-racist when you display racist attitudes like yours to me.

Minorities can't be racist? Tell that to my mother and grandmother, both of whom were ostracized from parts of my patrilineal family for the crime of being blond Anglos. Tell that to my father and grandfather for all the heat they took for daring to marry an Anglo.

And tell that to the administrators of racial benefit programs who say "get out of here white boy."

Smug condescending racism disguised as racial tolerance is sickening to many people who are minorities, myself included.

 

[Davka]

Davka, I'm going to play the race card now.

My family is from Los Angeles. When my grandfather married my grandmother it was a scandal. He married outside our group, he married "The Blonde". That is actually what some members of the family called her. She wasn't one of us, she was blonde. Some thought it was horrible that he married outside the group, others congratulated him on marrying up.

My father repeated the scandal when he married my mother, but since he had moved to the east coast by then the effects of the scandal weren't felt except for the times we visited family in SoCal. When we did, people were not quick to warm up to my blonde mother.

Now me. I pass, probably because I'm only 1/4. Nobody batted an eye when I married an Anglo. My daughter even has blue eyes. So I guess you probably say I'm white, even though I don't think of myself that way. I moved back to Los Angeles and people think my kids are white.

And I'm sick to death of all you smug progressives telling me how I feel. I'm sick to death of all you smug progressives telling me what my opinions are on political issues simply because of my genealogy. I find such attitudes to be offensively racist. Even more so than the one weirdo on this board who thinks he should have a right to shoot me solely on the grounds that I'm part minority. He at least is open about his racism. Smug progressives like yourself think you are being anti-racist when you display racist attitudes like yours to me.

Minorities can't be racist? Tell that to my mother and grandmother, both of whom were ostracized from parts of my patrilineal family for the crime of being blond Anglos. Tell that to my father and grandfather for all the heat they took for daring to marry an Anglo.

And tell that to the administrators of racial benefit programs who say "get out of here white boy."

Smug condescending racism disguised as racial tolerance is sickening to many people who are minorities, myself included.

I'm sorry that you are so dead-set against learning. Racial bigotry is not the same as racism.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Now you're telling me that I don't know what my own experiences are but you are willing to be offended on my behalf. I guess us stupid minorities need enlightened people like you to tell us what we think.

 

[Davka]

Now you're telling me that I don't know what my own experiences are but you are willing to be offended on my behalf. I guess us stupid minorities need enlightened people like you to tell us what we think.

I'm not telling you any of the things you've attributed to me. You seem resistant to any conversation that might result in your absorbing new information.

 

[Metaphor]

Not according to the definition in the OP. They can, however, be racially bigoted.

Why is this so difficult to grasp?

Because you just finished telling me off that I had constructed a strawman because I said the definition of racism in the OP means only Whites can be racist in America, which means you think I have the definition wrong. And now you've just finished telling me that it is indeed the case that only Whites can be racist in America, which means I had the definition right.

So, which is it? Were you wrong when you accused me of building a strawman in my earlier post, or are you wrong now?

Also, why can only Whites be racist in America, even under the narrow definition of the OP? Is there no Black person with any institutional power in America who could use that power to discriminate against Whites?

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Now you're telling me that I don't know what my own experiences are but you are willing to be offended on my behalf. I guess us stupid minorities need enlightened people like you to tell us what we think.

I'm not telling you any of the things you've attributed to me. You seem resistant to any conversation that might result in your absorbing new information.

Oh please wise white man, tell me how my asshole relatives weren't really racist because you're using an absurd definition that only works inside the ivory tower of the university. This poor latino doesn't know what he actually experienced and need you to tell him. I surely do not know as much as you since I'm just a lowly minority and cannot know what I've been through.

 

[Davka]

Not according to the definition in the OP. They can, however, be racially bigoted.

Why is this so difficult to grasp?

Because you just finished telling me off that I had constructed a strawman because I said the definition of racism in the OP means only Whites can be racist in America,

No, you did not. You said the OP means only whites can be racist, period. You said nothing about America.

 

[Davka]

I'm not telling you any of the things you've attributed to me. You seem resistant to any conversation that might result in your absorbing new information.

Oh please wise white man, tell me how my asshole relatives weren't really racist because you're using an absurd definition that only works inside the ivory tower of the university. This poor latino doesn't know what he actually experienced and need you to tell him. I surely do not know as much as you since I'm just a lowly minority and cannot know what I've been through.

Edited you need to sit down and shut up if you actually want to learn. or admit that you just want to rant and spew your crap regardless of what anyone else actually has to say.

 

[Metaphor]

Because you just finished telling me off that I had constructed a strawman because I said the definition of racism in the OP means only Whites can be racist in America,

No, you did not. You said the OP means only whites can be racist, period. You said nothing about America.

That's why I clarified my post by saying I was discussing America.

 

[Davka]

No, you did not. You said the OP means only whites can be racist, period. You said nothing about America.

That's why I clarified my post by saying I was discussing America.

Yes, after I responded to the post in which you did not mention America. And then you tried to rip me a new one for that response, based on things you wrote after my response.

Your post in which you did not mention America was either a strawman or a grave oversight.

 

[Metaphor]

That's why I clarified my post by saying I was discussing America.

Yes, after I responded to the post in which you did not mention America. And then you tried to rip me a new one for that response, based on things you wrote after my response.

Your post in which you did not mention America was either a strawman or a grave oversight.

It was not a straw man; it was indeed an oversight that I did not mention the context.

(You'll forgive me if sometimes even I succumb to northern hemisphere chauvinism and just assume everyone on this board is talking about America unless they mention another country specifically).

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Davka, I'm going to play the race card now.

My family is from Los Angeles. When my grandfather married my grandmother it was a scandal. He married outside our group, he married "The Blonde". That is actually what some members of the family called her. She wasn't one of us, she was blonde. Some thought it was horrible that he married outside the group, others congratulated him on marrying up.

My father repeated the scandal when he married my mother, but since he had moved to the east coast by then the effects of the scandal weren't felt except for the times we visited family in SoCal. When we did, people were not quick to warm up to my blonde mother.

Now me. I pass, probably because I'm only 1/4. Nobody batted an eye when I married an Anglo. My daughter even has blue eyes. So I guess you probably say I'm white, even though I don't think of myself that way. I moved back to Los Angeles and people think my kids are white.

And I'm sick to death of all you smug progressives telling me how I feel. I'm sick to death of all you smug progressives telling me what my opinions are on political issues simply because of my genealogy. I find such attitudes to be offensively racist. Even more so than the one weirdo on this board who thinks he should have a right to shoot me solely on the grounds that I'm part minority. He at least is open about his racism. Smug progressives like yourself think you are being anti-racist when you display racist attitudes like yours to me.

Minorities can't be racist? Tell that to my mother and grandmother, both of whom were ostracized from parts of my patrilineal family for the crime of being blond Anglos. Tell that to my father and grandfather for all the heat they took for daring to marry an Anglo.

And tell that to the administrators of racial benefit programs who say "get out of here white boy."

Smug condescending racism disguised as racial tolerance is sickening to many people who are minorities, myself included.

Where's the race card? You're not blaming anything on discrimination, you're simply pointing out an example of discrimination by non-whites.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm not telling you any of the things you've attributed to me. You seem resistant to any conversation that might result in your absorbing new information.

Oh please wise white man, tell me how my asshole relatives weren't really racist because you're using an absurd definition that only works inside the ivory tower of the university. This poor latino doesn't know what he actually experienced and need you to tell him. I surely do not know as much as you since I'm just a lowly minority and cannot know what I've been through.

He's half right--you only showed bigotry, not discrimination.

While the situation no doubt involved discrimination you didn't prove it.

 

[ksen]

Obviously we can't believe jason's anecdote because he's just being hysterical.

 

[Davka]

Yes, after I responded to the post in which you did not mention America. And then you tried to rip me a new one for that response, based on things you wrote after my response.

Your post in which you did not mention America was either a strawman or a grave oversight.

It was not a straw man; it was indeed an oversight that I did not mention the context.

(You'll forgive me if sometimes even I succumb to northern hemisphere chauvinism and just assume everyone on this board is talking about America unless they mention another country specifically).

OK then, it sounds like it was an honest mistake. I withdraw the strawman charge. Sorry about that - I tend to react pretty quickly when things get heated. Sometimes that means I don't bother to stop and think.

Look the whole reason for defining racism as racial bigotry + power is because racism necessarily hurts those it is directed against. Not simply as individuals, but the entire group. The rationale for trying to introduce more accurate terminology is that there is a difference between the effects of simple racial bigotry and the effects of culturally-accepted racism. If someone doesn't like me because I'm Irish, that's their problem. If the whole society is prejudiced against the Irish, that's my problem.

And for the whole society to be prejudiced does not require every individual to be racially bigoted. It simply requires a minority of racialist fucks, and for everyone else to pay no attention. In America, it seems that once a handful of Black folks made it into the middle- and even upper-middle-class, most of the country said 'well, that's nice, racism is over now," and closed their eyes to the poverty, the crime, the crappy schools and crappier jobs and shitty treatment that was and is doled out to the majority of African Americans in this country.

And whenever someone dares to raise this embarrassing and uncomfortable subject, I have come to expect a chorus of voices saying "they bring it on themselves." Yeah, they chose to be born in crime-ridden inner-city poverty hellholes, and to be raised by a teenaged mom, and to worry more about surviving the trip to school and back than about getting homework done.

So while black people can hate white people, they can't do anything near the damage to white people with their hatred that we can do to them with our simple uncaring. That's the difference between racial bigotry and actual racism. Bigotry is personal, and might do damage to a few individuals.. Racism is across the board, damaging a whole group of people - even when it's completely unconscious.

- - - Updated - - -

Obviously we can't believe jason's anecdote because he's just being hysterical.

"those people" are so emotional.