A Black History Month Moment: The Black Panther Party for Self Defense

[Loren Pechtel]

If he was murdered in cold blood he wouldn't have had an opportunity to get off a shot.

That is physically incorrect. Suppose the impact of the bullet(s) made his finger pull the hair trigger?

He wouldn't have had a chance to aim a gun, either.

 

[laughing dog]

That is physically incorrect. Suppose the impact of the bullet(s) made his finger pull the hair trigger?

He wouldn't have had a chance to aim a gun, either.

First, you are shifting the goal posts since your initial claim was he would not have a chance to get the shot off. Second, you are physically incorrect again - it is possible he sees them start to shoot so he raises his arm.

 

[untermensche]

The physical evidence soon exposed the claims of a "shootout" that were made by Hanrahan and his men to be blatant lies, and that the murderous reality was that the police fired nearly 100 shots while the Panthers fired but one.

Most significantly, the Court of Appeals also concluded that there was "serious evidence" to support the conclusion that the FBI, Hanrahan, and his men, in planning and executing the raid, had participated in a "conspiracy designed to subvert and eliminate the Black Panther Party and its members," thereby suppressing a "vital radical Black political organization." The Court further found there to be substantial evidence that these defendants also participated in a post-raid conspiracy to "cover up evidence" regarding the raid, to "conceal the true character of their pre-raid and raid activities," to "harass the survivors of the raid," and to "frustrate any legal redress the survivors might seek." This decision withstood a challenge in the U.S. Supreme Court, and stands today as judicial recognition of outrageous Federal and local conspiratorial criminality and cover-up.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/g-flint-taylor/the-fbi-cointelpro-progra_b_4375527.html

That anybody can defend this incredible abuse by the government is disturbing.

 

[Derec]

That anybody can defend this incredible abuse by the government is disturbing.

Nothing wrong, in principle, with government trying to subvert an organization like BPP. Just like there is nothing wrong with them trying to subvert KKK or the Mafia.

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Well, those roughly 10,000 children that weren't going to eat in the morning probably appreciated it.

Why couldn't their parents feed them?

 

[Derec]

I may also add Ahmad A. Rahman,

Another criminal (felony murder) who got rewarded with a professorship (University of Michigan-Dearbornistan).

Angela Davis (linked but CP leader)

This is the woman who gave her guns to a 17 year old for him to try and bust her boyfriend (among others) out of a courtroom. The 17 year and several of the Black Panthers were killed but so was the judge. Even though she was closely connected to this murderous plot she was inexplicably acquitted and is still considered a hero in left-wing and black radical circles.
She was "teaching" at a UC Santa Cruz until her retirement (shame on UC system administrators!) She is thus one of many politically radical professors on US campuses. Note that all of those radical professors are affiliated with left-wing radical groups - Black Panthers, Weather Underground (Bernardine Dhorn, Bill Ayers, Kathy Boudin). It's not like US universities are hiring KKK or right-wing militia members to teach.

and Elaine Brown former BP leader

Not a professor, but rather has political ambitions. I also found an interesting tidbit on her wiki page. She is advocating for the release of one Michael 'Little B' Lewis.
Who is that you might ask? Well, in 1997 he walked up to a car parked in front of a convenience store in Atlanta's Bluff¹ neighborhood (with emphasis on "hood") and shot a 23 year old black man in front of his small children, allegedly because he felt disrespected by not turning his headlights off when Little B asked him to. And oh yeah, the moniker fits because Little B was just 13 at the time.
'Little B' Seeks New Trial
Such evil in somebody only 13 years old does not bode well for what he would have done if not having been locked up since then. I do not see somebody capable of an act like this as a "victim" in the least. And I strongly suspect Elaine Brown would not see him as a victim either if he was white.
She also wrote a book advocating on behalf of former BPP leader Jamil Al-Amin (aka H Rap Brown) who murdered two deputies serving a warrant in Atlanta in 2001.

but this is nothing to do with her academic achievements.

I agree. Their academic careers have nothing to do with their academic achievements but with their political radicalism.

Universities hire people with diverse opinions as part of the Democratic Heritage.

Funny then that, as I said above, that when they hire radicals (including radicals guilty of serious crimes such as murder) they invariably hire left-wing radicals.

During the 1960s and 1970s. In the 1960s it was sometimes difficult to distinguish a Sounthern American Republican from a Klansman. Just a few years before Presley Music was banned in some places as (shall we say) non white music.

Yeah right, all whites who were not Black Panther sumpathizers (like WU terrorists) were "racist".

At one time COINTELPRO was supposed to be the imagination of conspiracy theorists but these was an Un-American program that existed to undermine perceived and imaginary enemies of the state.

Nothing imaginary about BPP being enemy of the state, given that their goal was imposition of Maoism in US.


¹ used to be a good area for cheap pussy too.

 

[untermensche]

Nothing wrong, in principle, with government trying to subvert an organization like BPP. Just like there is nothing wrong with them trying to subvert KKK or the Mafia.

No, using the local police to assassinate leaders of the KKK and Mafia would still be opposed by me.

Nothing justifies the government breaking the law.

Actual crimes, that can be proven, can certainly be prosecuted, but government harassment of any kind is not justified.

 

[Derec]

No, using the local police to assassinate leaders of the KKK and Mafia would still be opposed by me.

I would agree with you that assassination would be unacceptable, but I do not see any evidence BPP leaders were assassinated. I was referring to the general aim of COINTELPRO to suppress organizations such as the Panthers.

Nothing justifies the government breaking the law.

And what justifies BPP breaking the law?

Actual crimes, that can be proven, can certainly be prosecuted, but government harassment of any kind is not justified.

The problem is that just like with the Mafia so many BPP leaders skirted the law, no doubt because of their popularity in certain circles (that even exists today unfortunately). As far as I am concerned they should all have been RICOed.
Take for example the murder of Alex Rackley. The trial was marred by many protests which affected the outcome in that the gunmen got slaps on the wrist and those who ordered the hit (such as Bobby Seale) as well as those who participated in the torture (such as Ericka Huggins) escaped justice altogether.

 

[laughing dog]

Nothing imaginary about BPP being enemy of the state, given that their goal was imposition of Maoism in US.

Wat?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

He wouldn't have had a chance to aim a gun, either.

First, you are shifting the goal posts since your initial claim was he would not have a chance to get the shot off. Second, you are physically incorrect again - it is possible he sees them start to shoot so he raises his arm.

That's implying a lot of incompetence to those who shouldn't be that incompetent.

If the objective was simply to kill him he wouldn't have had a chance. If competent shooters bust in with an intent to kill the defenders have basically zero chance. The only way to survive is a defense in depth--make them bust in somewhere removed from where you are to give you time to react.

 

[laughing dog]

First, you are shifting the goal posts since your initial claim was he would not have a chance to get the shot off. Second, you are physically incorrect again - it is possible he sees them start to shoot so he raises his arm.

That's implying a lot of incompetence to those who shouldn't be that incompetent.

Irrelevant and wrong.

If the objective was simply to kill him he wouldn't have had a chance. If competent shooters bust in with an intent to kill the defenders have basically zero chance. The only way to survive is a defense in depth--make them bust in somewhere removed from where you are to give you time to react.

First, I seriously doubt you have any idea about any of this. Second, you realize that you are saying the gov't was trying to murder this guy with your scenario. Third, you are deflecting from the relevant issue: that your claim that it would impossible for him to get a shot off is simply wrong.

 

[laughing dog]

Another criminal (felony murder) who got rewarded with a professorship (University of Michigan-Dearbornistan).

Rahman's sentence was commuted after 22 years (he got out in the 1990s). He went back to school and earned a Ph.D. in history from the U of Mi, Ann Arbor, and then was hired in 2004 by UM, Dearborn. Those are the facts. He served his time and became a model citizen.
Your implication that his professorship was a reward for his Panther activities is completely unfounded. Your willingness to impugn the integrity of the UM at Dearborn or Professor Rahman with bigoted and ignorant slander reveals more about your "character" than Rahman or UM at Dearborn.

This is the woman who gave her guns to a 17 year old for him to try and bust her boyfriend (among others) out of a courtroom. The 17 year and several of the Black Panthers were killed but so was the judge. Even though she was closely connected to this murderous plot she was inexplicably acquitted and is still considered a hero in left-wing and black radical circles.
She was "teaching" at a UC Santa Cruz until her retirement (shame on UC system administrators!) She is thus one of many politically radical professors on US campuses. Note that all of those radical professors are affiliated with left-wing radical groups - Black Panthers, Weather Underground (Bernardine Dhorn, Bill Ayers, Kathy Boudin). It's not like US universities are hiring KKK or right-wing militia members to teach.

Angela Davis was acquitted. According to you, every accused rapist is entitled to the presumption of innocence but apparently not Angela Davis. She earned a Ph.D. from a German university and was qualified to teach at the university level.
Her political views should not disqualify her from any academic job - as any university with any integrity knows.

 

[Derec]

Nothing imaginary about BPP being enemy of the state, given that their goal was imposition of Maoism in US.

Wat?

What, you didn't know Black Panthers were Maoist?

 

[Derec]

Rahman's sentence was commuted after 22 years (he got out in the 1990s). He went back to school and earned a Ph.D. in history from the U of Mi, Ann Arbor, and then was hired in 2004 by UM, Dearborn. Those are the facts. He served his time and became a model citizen.

Did he ever renounce his radicalism? And would UM-Dearbornistan ever consider hiring a right-wing radical for professorship after they a released from prison for felony murder and get their PhD? I seriously doubt it and I doubt even more you can point to such a case. But here we have case after case of left-wing radicals getting professorships thrown at them despite serious crimes they committed.

Your implication that his professorship was a reward for his Panther activities is completely unfounded. Your willingness to impugn the integrity of the UM at Dearborn or Professor Rahman with bigoted and ignorant slander reveals more about your "character" than Rahman or UM at Dearborn.

How many right-wing militia types that spent 20 years in prison for felony murder are "teaching" law there?

Angela Davis was acquitted.

So was OJ, and for not entirely dissimilar reasons. Both are guilty as sin though.
Davis was acquitted for purely political reasons. The evidence against her was overwhelming. She acquired the guns, planned the crime with Jackson, and wrote to her boyfriend about her plans to free him.

According to you, every accused rapist is entitled to the presumption of innocence but apparently not Angela Davis.

If there is sufficient evidence to prove the rapist guilty but he is acquitted because of his radical politics I'd very much be against that too. Besides, the evidence against Davis was orders of magnitude stronger than evidence in most rape cases (which are usually "he said she said").
I wonder if she ever feels remorse for sending a 17 year old to his death. Perhaps. I am pretty sure she feels not a shred of remorse over the murder of the judge and paralysis of the prosecutor. After all, they were the enemies of their revolution.

She earned a Ph.D. from a German university and was qualified to teach at the university level.
Her political views should not disqualify her from any academic job - as any university with any integrity knows.

I'd believe that when UC Santa Cruz hires a right-wing radical who was involved in taking a courtroom hostage and murdering a judge.
Nobody like that would ever be hired no matter how many PhDs they have.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Wat?

What, you didn't know Black Panthers were Maoist?

As in freedom of opinion.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Did he ever renounce his radicalism? And would UM-Dearbornistan ever consider hiring a right-wing radical for professorship after they a released from prison for felony murder and get their PhD? I seriously doubt it and I doubt even more you can point to such a case. But here we have case after case of left-wing radicals getting professorships thrown at them despite serious crimes they committed.

Your implication that his professorship was a reward for his Panther activities is completely unfounded. Your willingness to impugn the integrity of the UM at Dearborn or Professor Rahman with bigoted and ignorant slander reveals more about your "character" than Rahman or UM at Dearborn.

How many right-wing militia types that spent 20 years in prison for felony murder are "teaching" law there?

Angela Davis was acquitted.

So was OJ, and for not entirely dissimilar reasons. Both are guilty as sin though.
Davis was acquitted for purely political reasons. The evidence against her was overwhelming. She acquired the guns, planned the crime with Jackson, and wrote to her boyfriend about her plans to free him.

According to you, every accused rapist is entitled to the presumption of innocence but apparently not Angela Davis.

If there is sufficient evidence to prove the rapist guilty but he is acquitted because of his radical politics I'd very much be against that too. Besides, the evidence against Davis was orders of magnitude stronger than evidence in most rape cases (which are usually "he said she said").
I wonder if she ever feels remorse for sending a 17 year old to his death. Perhaps. I am pretty sure she feels not a shred of remorse over the murder of the judge and paralysis of the prosecutor. After all, they were the enemies of their revolution.

She earned a Ph.D. from a German university and was qualified to teach at the university level.
Her political views should not disqualify her from any academic job - as any university with any integrity knows.

I'd believe that when UC Santa Cruz hires a right-wing radical who was involved in taking a courtroom hostage and murdering a judge.
Nobody like that would ever be hired no matter how many PhDs they have.

She was acquitted by an all White Jury in that there was no evidence that she was involved in the crime she was accused of. . Why would she fee remorse over something she seems does not seem to have committed?

 

[untermensche]

I would agree with you that assassination would be unacceptable, but I do not see any evidence BPP leaders were assassinated. I was referring to the general aim of COINTELPRO to suppress organizations such as the Panthers.

At 4:00 a.m., the heavily armed police team arrived at the site, divided into two teams, eight for the front of the building and six for the rear. At 4:45 a.m., they stormed into the apartment.

Mark Clark, sitting in the front room of the apartment with a shotgun in his lap, was on security duty. He was shot in the heart and died instantly.[21] His gun fired a single round which was later determined to be caused by a reflexive death convulsion after the raiding team shot him; this was the only shot the Panthers fired.[5][22][23]

Automatic gunfire then converged at the head of the south bedroom where Hampton slept, unable to awaken as a result of the barbiturates the FBI infiltrator had slipped into his drink. He was lying on a mattress in the bedroom with his fiancée, who was eight-and-a-half months pregnant with their child.[21] Two officers found him wounded in the shoulder, and fellow Black Panther Harold Bell reported that he heard the following exchange:

"That's Fred Hampton."
"Is he dead?... Bring him out."
"He's barely alive.
"He'll make it."

Two shots were heard, which were later discovered were fired point blank in Hampton's head. According to Johnson, one officer then said:

"He's good and dead now."[24]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Hampton

The house was raided, Hampton was unarmed and shot first in his bed.

This was COINTELPRO, an assassination program.

 

[marc]

Most significantly, the Court of Appeals also concluded that there was "serious evidence" to support the conclusion that the FBI, Hanrahan, and his men, in planning and executing the raid, had participated in a "conspiracy designed to subvert and eliminate the Black Panther Party and its members," thereby suppressing a "vital radical Black political organization." The Court further found there to be substantial evidence that these defendants also participated in a post-raid conspiracy to "cover up evidence" regarding the raid, to "conceal the true character of their pre-raid and raid activities," to "harass the survivors of the raid," and to "frustrate any legal redress the survivors might seek." This decision withstood a challenge in the U.S. Supreme Court, and stands today as judicial recognition of outrageous Federal and local conspiratorial criminality and cover-up.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/g-flint-taylor/the-fbi-cointelpro-progra_b_4375527.html

That anybody can defend this incredible abuse by the government is disturbing.

Isn't this the kind of government abuse the 2nd amendment fetishists always bring up? Curious they don't bring this up as an example to justify their rhetoric. Also, wouldn't this also then show their clinging to their guns really wouldn't save them if the government was determined to take them down?

 

[Derec]

Also, wouldn't this also then show their clinging to their guns really wouldn't save them if the government was determined to take them down?

Well Fred Hampton's Panthers cell had a sizable arsenal and an armed sentry (Mark Clark) and it didn't really help them.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Derec, is there any doubt that the FBI's actions in the 60s in many cases were dubious at best, and definitely worth some level of scrutiny?

We know that the FBI infiltrated the Black Panthers with a ton of informants. We know they put people in there to try and incite violence and dissent. While the Black Panthers will never be recognized as being inline with Ghandi, that doesn't mean they themselves, weren't victims of an FBI organization that used questionable to unlawful tactics and didn't, themselves, try to make the Black Panthers a threat to society.

 

[laughing dog]

Did he ever renounce his radicalism? And would UM-Dearbornistan ever consider hiring a right-wing radical for professorship after they a released from prison for felony murder and get their PhD? I seriously doubt it and I doubt even more you can point to such a case. But here we have case after case of left-wing radicals getting professorships thrown at them despite serious crimes they committed.

You confuse your opinion and biases with fact. I don't have to point to anything.

How many right-wing militia types that spent 20 years in prison for felony murder are "teaching" law there?

Don't know and don't care because it is irrelevant. You have not presented one iota of relevant evidence that Professor Rahman was unqualified for his position. Until you do, your responses represent bile and bias.

So was OJ, and for not entirely dissimilar reasons. Both are guilty as sin though.
Davis was acquitted for purely political reasons. The evidence against her was overwhelming. She acquired the guns, planned the crime with Jackson, and wrote to her boyfriend about her plans to free him.

Apparently a jury of 12 people who were screened for racial bigotry and sat through an entire trial, weighed all the presented evidence and found her not guilty. Your opinion is your opinion but it is certainly more suspect than the jury verdict.

If there is sufficient evidence to prove the rapist guilty but he is acquitted because of his radical politics I'd very much be against that too. Besides, the evidence against Davis was orders of magnitude stronger than evidence in most rape cases (which are usually "he said she said").

Your posting history rebuts your claim.

I'd believe that when UC Santa Cruz hires a right-wing radical who was involved in taking a courtroom hostage and murdering a judge.
Nobody like that would ever be hired no matter how many PhDs they have.

Your views would go over well at Liberty University or Bob Jones University, but not any reputable university with more than a shred of academic integrity.

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Wat?

What, you didn't know Black Panthers were Maoist?

No, that being a "Maoist" made one an enemy of the state. Duh.