• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

A business gives raises, and Wall Street freaks out

lpetrich

Contributor
Joined
Jul 27, 2000
Messages
25,327
Location
Eugene, OR
Gender
Male
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
American Airlines gave its workers a raise. Wall Street freaked out. - Vox
American Airlines agreed this week to do something nice for its employees and arguably foresighted for its business by giving flight attendants and pilots a preemptive raise, in order to close a gap that had opened up between their compensation and the compensation paid by rival airlines Delta and United.

Wall Street freaked out, sending American shares plummeting. After all, this is capitalism and the capital owners are supposed to reap the rewards of business success.

“This is frustrating. Labor is being paid first again,” wrote Citi analyst Kevin Crissey in a widely circulated note. “Shareholders get leftovers.”

...
JP Morgan’s Jamie Baker was even more scathing than Crissey.

"We are troubled by AAL's wealth transfer of nearly $1 billion to its labor groups,” he wrote, suggesting that the move was not just contestable as a matter of business strategy, but somehow obviously illegitimate.

...
Baker, however, takes a darker view, saying that not only does the raise increase costs, it “establishes a worrying precedent, in our view, both for American and the industry."

Over the last few decades or thereabouts, workers have been receiving less and less of nations' overall incomes. Economists have several theories about what might be the case: automation, monopoly power, global trade, rents, ...
It’s less quantifiable, and thus not-beloved by academic economists, but my personal view is that what amounts to a management fad for treating workers poorly is an underrated factor here. The beating American took in the stock market — and the outraged tone of the analyst letters — is a clear sign of the constant pressure that modern companies are under to be as stingy as possible with their workforce.
Let 's see what the capitalism apologists have to say about that.

Author Matthew Yglesias continues,
A company like Apple that thinks nothing of investing money in environmental or accessibility initiatives would never dream of taking a similarly high-minded attitude toward labor issues, even though it obviously could make Apple Store retail employees as well-paid as any manufacturing worker from the “good old days” if it wanted to.

He notes that while forcing down wages may be good for each individual business, it is not good for the economy as a whole, because poorly-paid workers will not be able to buy very much. This is a case of the Tragedy of the Commons, where actions that benefit each individual cause overall trouble, because the losses are more broadly-spread.
 
Good article and a good break from this "thug" definition morass.
 
Donations to enviromental concerns can easily be cancelled or trimmed with things get tight for the business economically speaking. If you give out higher wages during good times it is a whole lot harder to bring them back down. You'll end up more than likely having to deal with the issue through cutbacks in hours or layoffs. Very few people will voluntarily take pay cuts.
 
Conventional economic wisdom holds that inflation comes from labor costs. An efficient economy, therefore, pays its workers as little as possible.

Supposedly that's better for everyone in the long term, but YMMV.
 
I am concerned that some of these Wall St types need some nice fresh air at a labour camp somewhere.
 
I am concerned that some of these Wall St types need some nice fresh air at a labour camp somewhere.

Shareholders are just like everyone else, they will always seek to maximize their return. I personally like to invest in companies that are market leaders. Market leaders always pay the highest salaries and benefits to their workers. They seek the best employees.
 
I am concerned that some of these Wall St types need some nice fresh air at a labour camp somewhere.

Shareholders are just like everyone else, they will always seek to maximize their return. I personally like to invest in companies that are market leaders. Market leaders always pay the highest salaries and benefits to their workers. They seek the best employees.

No coincidence. "Shareholders get leftovers" is another way of saying "the Company I invested in doesn't pay its front-line workers enough to maintain a quality product or service".
 
I am concerned that some of these Wall St types need some nice fresh air at a labour camp somewhere.

Shareholders are just like everyone else, they will always seek to maximize their return. I personally like to invest in companies that are market leaders. Market leaders always pay the highest salaries and benefits to their workers. They seek the best employees.

Not so, according to John Kenneth Galbraith. He argued that investors have societal concerns, and value those concerns over returns(or at least that's what they say). He claimed that corporate management exploits maximized returns for their own ends.

His point was that corporations are efficient resource allocators, but control of them has been hijacked from investors by management.
 
Shareholders are just like everyone else, they will always seek to maximize their return. I personally like to invest in companies that are market leaders. Market leaders always pay the highest salaries and benefits to their workers. They seek the best employees.

Not so, according to John Kenneth Galbraith. He argued that investors have societal concerns, and value those concerns over returns(or at least that's what they say). He claimed that corporate management exploits maximized returns for their own ends.

His point was that corporations are efficient resource allocators, but control of them has been hijacked from investors by management.

I'll tell my mother in law about what John had to say. She survives on her investments and SSN. SSN alone is not enough for most retirees to live on.

Do you sacrifice for society?
 
It seems to me that shareholders are SUPPOSED to get "the leftovers"

I would say that "leftovers" is profit. But not all profit is distributed to shareholders. Profit can be distributed to shareholders. But is also often retained in the company for future needs (retained profit); paid out for new and existing debt service (equipment, and etc.). Higher retained profit will allow companies to hire more, increase wages at the end of the year, roll out new marketing programs, expand vertically, and etc.
 
Shareholders are just like everyone else, they will always seek to maximize their return. I personally like to invest in companies that are market leaders. Market leaders always pay the highest salaries and benefits to their workers. They seek the best employees.

Not so, according to John Kenneth Galbraith. He argued that investors have societal concerns, and value those concerns over returns(or at least that's what they say). He claimed that corporate management exploits maximized returns for their own ends.

His point was that corporations are efficient resource allocators, but control of them has been hijacked from investors by management.

Are you sure about this quote? I would question if that is a fair representation of Galbraith's position.

In The Predator State he identifies clearly that he believes that Wall Street has taken control of the corporations away from both management and the investors. That the stock analysts, the stock fund managers and the banks wield power over both. That the workers, customers and the public come in last.
 
Not so, according to John Kenneth Galbraith. He argued that investors have societal concerns, and value those concerns over returns(or at least that's what they say). He claimed that corporate management exploits maximized returns for their own ends.

His point was that corporations are efficient resource allocators, but control of them has been hijacked from investors by management.

Are you sure about this quote? I would question if that is a fair representation of Galbraith's position.

In The Predator State he identifies clearly that he believes that Wall Street has taken control of the corporations away from both management and the investors. That the stock analysts, the stock fund managers and the banks wield power over both. That the workers, customers and the public come in last.

Pretty sure.

You've got your Galbraiths confused. The Predator State is Galbraith fils, not pere.

I was referring to The Economics of Innocent Fraud: Truth for Our Time.

It's from 2004, so maybe 2008 would've modified his view.

- - - Updated - - -

Not so, according to John Kenneth Galbraith. He argued that investors have societal concerns, and value those concerns over returns(or at least that's what they say). He claimed that corporate management exploits maximized returns for their own ends.

His point was that corporations are efficient resource allocators, but control of them has been hijacked from investors by management.

I'll tell my mother in law about what John had to say. She survives on her investments and SSN. SSN alone is not enough for most retirees to live on.

Do you sacrifice for society?

Would you invest in Murder Inc or Cocaine Unlimited?
 
It seems to me that shareholders are SUPPOSED to get "the leftovers"

I would say that "leftovers" is profit. But not all profit is distributed to shareholders. Profit can be distributed to shareholders. But is also often retained in the company for future needs (retained profit); paid out for new and existing debt service (equipment, and etc.). Higher retained profit will allow companies to hire more, increase wages at the end of the year, roll out new marketing programs, expand vertically, and etc.

Yes, virtually all corporate investment comes from retained earnings or borrowing, that is, corporate bond issues or bank loans. None comes from the shareholders or from the stock market and its so-called investors. No CFO who wanted to retain his job would recommend a new stock issue or the selling of corporate reserve stock to raise money for an investment in their own company. Using the stock market to raise money would probably be viewed as a weakness in the corporation and its management.

The various posts here tell the story, you just have know how to look at them.

For example, someone said that only wages cause inflation. This is true, but not because there is anything toxic about wages. It is just that the money provided to the wealthy in a tax cut doesn't in anyway end up in the economy. What they call "investing" is actually saving. The money can't create inflation because it is no longer in the economy. Wages cause inflation if they get too high because they do impact the economy, they crank up the demand for products in the economy.

But the supply side increases in money, i.e. diverting money from wages to profits, does create inflation in the stock market. Since 1980 the stock market total valuation has gone up more than 2300% nominal, compared to a cost of living increase in that time of 300% or so. This is a tremendous amount of inflation, but it isn't called inflation, it is called "Capital Gains" and is for some reason universally considered to be a "good" while wage inflation is considered to be a "bad."

So by declaring that only wages can produce inflation, they are also admitting that the stock market has nothing to do with the kind of virtuous investing that grows the economy.

We can have a form of supply side inflation, but it comes from too many loans being taken out to build up businesses, forming an economic bubble that pops when there is enough demand to keep all of the expanded businesses open. The same thing that happens in a stock market bubble or any other types of asset bubbles.

What created the Great Financial Crisis of 2008 was that some overly clever people on Wall Street figured out a way to get the supply side money into the economy, by using it to finance risky mortgages that the banks couldn't legally originate, write, because they were too risky. The mortgages did increase inflation in the housing market, which is also inflation that is considered to good, also called called capital gains.

It is conceivable that it could have caused general inflation but of course, the bubble burst and the whole scheme came crashing down, nearly taking the world's banking system with it. You might of heard about it on the news.
 
I am concerned that some of these Wall St types need some nice fresh air at a labour camp somewhere.

Shareholders are just like everyone else, they will always seek to maximize their return. I personally like to invest in companies that are market leaders. Market leaders always pay the highest salaries and benefits to their workers. They seek the best employees.

There are controlling shareholders. There are shareholders who's opinions matter. And there are the mass of completely powerless shareholders. The last group are nothing but gamblers. Many times they are complete suckers.

They have nothing but hope.

This story illustrates a severe problem with modern capitalism. A severe immorality.

Since most workers have no control over their wages even when workers become more productive or the enterprise becomes more profitable they do not necessarily see any increase in compensation.

As corporate profits have skyrocketed and executive compensation in all it's forms has increased over the last few decades wages have stagnated.

Since the cost of living has increased this means most are slowly losing ground.

It is not an insane system though.

It is nice to be the king and have willing slaves. It is nice to give orders. It is especially nice to profit off the labor of others, to use others as your personal means of survival and of extravagance. To be a parasite. A large parasite.
 
Are you sure about this quote? I would question if that is a fair representation of Galbraith's position.

In The Predator State he identifies clearly that he believes that Wall Street has taken control of the corporations away from both management and the investors. That the stock analysts, the stock fund managers and the banks wield power over both. That the workers, customers and the public come in last.

Pretty sure.

You've got your Galbraiths confused. The Predator State is Galbraith fils, not pere.

I was referring to The Economics of Innocent Fraud: Truth for Our Time.

It's from 2004, so maybe 2008 would've modified his view.

... <snip>​

Quite right, sorry.

In that case I would come down more on Jamie's side rather than Jack's.
 
Are you sure about this quote? I would question if that is a fair representation of Galbraith's position.

In The Predator State he identifies clearly that he believes that Wall Street has taken control of the corporations away from both management and the investors. That the stock analysts, the stock fund managers and the banks wield power over both. That the workers, customers and the public come in last.

Pretty sure.

You've got your Galbraiths confused. The Predator State is Galbraith fils, not pere.

I was referring to The Economics of Innocent Fraud: Truth for Our Time.

It's from 2004, so maybe 2008 would've modified his view.

- - - Updated - - -

Not so, according to John Kenneth Galbraith. He argued that investors have societal concerns, and value those concerns over returns(or at least that's what they say). He claimed that corporate management exploits maximized returns for their own ends.

His point was that corporations are efficient resource allocators, but control of them has been hijacked from investors by management.

I'll tell my mother in law about what John had to say. She survives on her investments and SSN. SSN alone is not enough for most retirees to live on.

Do you sacrifice for society?

Would you invest in Murder Inc or Cocaine Unlimited?

I would not. But if I were retired, and all that I had for cash flow was SSN and my portfolio, I would be awfully tempted to invest in Cocaine Unlimited if I needed the return that they were promising.
 
I would not. But if I were retired, and all that I had for cash flow was SSN and my portfolio, I would be awfully tempted to invest in Cocaine Unlimited if I needed the return that they were promising.

I have no investments, so I'm not conflicted.

Having to choose between impoverishing retirees or workers isn't much of a choice…

How about strengthening SSN to cover basic needs so that the worker pay souring dividends thingie only costs MIL her golf outing to Palm Springs?
 
I would not. But if I were retired, and all that I had for cash flow was SSN and my portfolio, I would be awfully tempted to invest in Cocaine Unlimited if I needed the return that they were promising.

I have no investments, so I'm not conflicted.

Having to choose between impoverishing retirees or workers isn't much of a choice…

How about strengthening SSN to cover basic needs so that the worker pay souring dividends thingie only costs MIL her golf outing to Palm Springs?

And what do you think the odds are that Trump will strengthen SSN?
 
Back
Top Bottom