A God without compelling evidence?

[ideologyhunter]

But isn't it nice that believers can customize? Some are convinced their kittens and lapdogs will be with them in heaven. I have yet to hear a believer state that they hope their pet can get into hell, though. Maybe some housewife whose dog just gnawed the leg of her coffee table.

 

[Learner]

I adjusted my previous post.

you could both be part right to some degree.

Both can't be right, either one is right and the other wrong or there is a contradiction. Eternal Damnation, by definition, is forever.

You just mentioned previously "nobody is saying every sinner will suffer the same fate," but here you are saying it is. Here is were it doesn't make sense - light-weight sins, so to speak, as compared to the most atrocious are metered with the same "eternal" punishment. A pickpocketing theif gets the "same" as satan.

I take to excreationists posts regarding (some) sinners being burnt up, into smoke, imo out of existence.

....only those who's names are not written in 'the book of life.'

'And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.'' Rev 20:15

All sinners btw as written, unrepentantly go to the lake of fire.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Time to admit that 1st Century religious writers had primitive impulses?

 

[Learner]

If you could gives us a little more on that.

 

[skepticalbip]

But isn't it nice that believers can customize? Some are convinced their kittens and lapdogs will be with them in heaven. I have yet to hear a believer state that they hope their pet can get into hell, though. Maybe some housewife whose dog just gnawed the leg of her coffee table.

It does seem that religious belief of the afterlife was once like a military mess where there were no options. Now it seems to be more like a smorgasbord where the believer can pick and choose what they want.

 

[Learner]

I think the so called debating rheotric saying God tortures anyone and everyone who doesn't follow Him etc. & etc. is gonna slip away, ending up with the rest of the old redundant, out-of-context atheistic arguments! I do understand, it would have been nice to hang onto the rhetoric and keep making the faulty case.

 

[ideologyhunter]

(cancel)

 

[skepticalbip]

I think the so called debating rheotric saying God tortures anyone and everyone who doesn't follow Him etc. & etc. is gonna slip away, ending up with the rest of the old redundant, out-of-context atheistic arguments! I do understand, it would have been nice to hang onto the rhetoric and keep making the faulty case.

Could be, if the Bible is edited to delete the passages that say that... or if they are simply ignored.

 

[ideologyhunter]

If you could gives us a little more on that.

Jeepers -- can I start with hell, the 1st century Christian update on "Ours is the true faith!" It added a crucial rider: Unbelievers will receive eternal torture, as they deserve.
Cue the next 15 centuries of Christianity, which, in so many places where Christians held power, led to believers putting the heretics on the rack, which could be followed up with hanging, pressing to death, or reducing them to ashes. My adjective: primitive.

 

[DBT]

You just mentioned previously "nobody is saying every sinner will suffer the same fate," but here you are saying it is. Here is were it doesn't make sense - light-weight sins, so to speak, as compared to the most atrocious are metered with the same "eternal" punishment. A pickpocketing theif gets the "same" as satan.

I take to excreationists posts regarding (some) sinners being burnt up, into smoke, imo out of existence.

....only those who's names are not written in 'the book of life.'

'And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.'' Rev 20:15

All sinners btw as written, unrepentantly go to the lake of fire.

You are insisting that I said or implied that all sinners are damned. No I did not, I merely quoted verses. The verses I quoted don't say that all sinners are damned, just those who's name is not written in the book of life. Nothing more than that was meant or implied.

 

[excreationist]

....You ignore the wording of the verses that specify eternal torment. That is cherry picking. You should simply acknowledge that there is a contradiction, that we have eternal damnation/torment, simple death, or at the other end of the spectrum, universal salvation.....take your pick, it's all there.

The rationale that the smoke of "Gehenna" is eternal while the suffering of "beast and his followers and everyone who's name is not in 'the book of life' is absurd, given the wording of these verses.

Ok with a plain reading there seems like verses that say that people will suffer eternally in hell. I think jewishnotgreek.com talks about interpretations for ALL of the problematic verses though it seems you often ignore my quotes of it like you did in post #135. Fudge's books go into further detail...

But again, YES with a plain reading there is eternal suffering...

 

[DBT]

....You ignore the wording of the verses that specify eternal torment. That is cherry picking. You should simply acknowledge that there is a contradiction, that we have eternal damnation/torment, simple death, or at the other end of the spectrum, universal salvation.....take your pick, it's all there.

The rationale that the smoke of "Gehenna" is eternal while the suffering of "beast and his followers and everyone who's name is not in 'the book of life' is absurd, given the wording of these verses.

Ok with a plain reading there seems like verses that say that people will suffer eternally in hell. I think jewishnotgreek.com talks about interpretations for ALL of the problematic verses though it seems you often ignore my quotes of it like you did in post #135. Fudge's books go into further detail...

But again, YES with a plain reading there is eternal suffering...

There is plain reading of what the verses plainly say, and there is the fine art of apologetics, attempts to interpret and alter what the verses plainly say and transform their plain message into something they do not say or mean.

It's called bias.

The implications of verses stating eternal damnation and torment do not fit the preferred theology so they must be reinterpreted and modified into something more suitable.

 

[excreationist]

There is plain reading of what the verses plainly say, and there is the fine art of apologetics, attempts to interpret and alter what the verses plainly say and transform their plain message into something they do not say or mean.

It's called bias.

The implications of verses stating eternal damnation and torment do not fit the preferred theology so they must be reinterpreted and modified into something more suitable.

I see the Bible seeming to say that most people will suffer eternally as a test of people's character...
https://www.lifesplayer.com/bible.php

Option 1: The Bible is 100% true and moral​

This means that God is perfectly just and loving, even if most people are going to hell, perhaps forever
​

Then there are other theists who believe some or a lot of things the Bible says is not historical or true....

 

[Learner]

You just mentioned previously "nobody is saying every sinner will suffer the same fate," but here you are saying it is. Here is were it doesn't make sense - light-weight sins, so to speak, as compared to the most atrocious are metered with the same "eternal" punishment. A pickpocketing theif gets the "same" as satan.

I take to excreationists posts regarding (some) sinners being burnt up, into smoke, imo out of existence.

....only those who's names are not written in 'the book of life.'

'And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.'' Rev 20:15

All sinners btw as written, unrepentantly go to the lake of fire.

You are insisting that I said or implied that all sinners are damned. No I did not, I merely quoted verses. The verses I quoted don't say that all sinners are damned, just those who's name is not written in the book of life. Nothing more than that was meant or implied.

It's All sinners that's 'not in the book of life' - that I would agree with... but they ALL end up in the flames. Only the saved are in the book of life. You are implying (how you read it, a confusion perhaps) that sinners unrepentful, scaled right across the spectrum; the drunkards, the fornicators, the thieves and liars, who apparently,as you seem to say: judged with the same justice "equal" to the most evil, wicked repobates - the murderers. killers (wilingly in heart) and satan - judged with exactly the same "eternal" damnation. Doesn't make sense, which also go against the Righteous and Fair Judge narrative of course. Why write the scriptures with these contradictions if the message was intended to gather together and gain many followers?

 

[Learner]

If you could gives us a little more on that.

Jeepers -- can I start with hell, the 1st century Christian update on "Ours is the true faith!" It added a crucial rider: Unbelievers will receive eternal torture, as they deserve.

Cue the next 15 centuries of Christianity, which, in so many places where Christians held power, led to believers putting the heretics on the rack, which could be followed up with hanging, pressing to death, or reducing them to ashes. My adjective: primitive.

Christians today acknowledge and accept both points. Good news is: you'll find many today are going 'back to basics' bible study Theology Hunting . With 2000 years of historical knowledge experience and today's modern investigative applications and modern minds, we can straighten out a few things. The verses for a particular future generation below seems fitting (at least from a theistic view, not yours of course):



But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased (Dan 12:4). And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end (Dan 12:9)


‘knowledge shall increase’ many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand (Dan 12:10).

(Daniel didn't understand the prophesy himself, it was to be understood by the last generation)

 

[Learner]

Good bit of reseach ex,

Intersting point highlighted; mis-understandings with Greek scrptiure interpretations. Imagine... translating further into old modern English then further yet, to be read with modern English speakers lol. I think at the time, the writers wrote with correct words that they understood them to mean.

You've probably come across this already by this persons study - sounds interesting:

The Greek word aionios/eternal:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kfKQJfT0C8

 

[aupmanyav]

The title of the topic should be changed to "A God without even a sliver of evidence".

 

[DBT]

You are insisting that I said or implied that all sinners are damned. No I did not, I merely quoted verses. The verses I quoted don't say that all sinners are damned, just those who's name is not written in the book of life. Nothing more than that was meant or implied.

It's All sinners that's 'not in the book of life' - that I would agree with... but they ALL end up in the flames. Only the saved are in the book of life. You are implying (how you read it, a confusion perhaps) that sinners unrepentful, scaled right across the spectrum; the drunkards, the fornicators, the thieves and liars, who apparently,as you seem to say: judged with the same justice "equal" to the most evil, wicked repobates - the murderers. killers (wilingly in heart) and satan - judged with exactly the same "eternal" damnation. Doesn't make sense, which also go against the Righteous and Fair Judge narrative of course. Why write the scriptures with these contradictions if the message was intended to gather together and gain many followers?

What do think is supposed to happen to those who's names are not 'written in the book of life?'

"Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire." - Rev 20:15

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

The title of the topic should be changed to "A God without even a sliver of evidence".

I think that's how most of us perceive the issue, fwiw. The word "god" is pretty much a representative, generic stand-in for spookimony, testimony about things spooky.

 

[excreationist]

The title of the topic should be changed to "A God without even a sliver of evidence".

What about post #88? And I'm saying we could be in a simulation and that means an intervening intelligent force is possible.

In post #91 I'm saying that the evidence doesn't convince skeptics but I think it can be said that there is some kind of evidence since billions of people believe in God....