A God without compelling evidence?

[Lion IRC]

And while we're at it, a neurology text which demonstrates that the soul exists?

https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc461684/
(Pam Reynolds case - Journal of Near-Death Studies)

Abstract: The well-known Pam Reynolds near-death experience (NDE) occurred at the Barrow Neurological Institute during a medically well-documented period, which is why many people regard it as proof of the reality of a separable immaterial conscious mind.

Science says brain death = dead brain = total bodily inability to experience anything.
If the dead body isn't experiencing anything then it must be some form of discarnate consciousness which is having those sensations.

 

[excreationist]

....Can you find any verses in the Bible that say the soul is immortal?

In relation to verses describing reward and punishment, how does the concept of soul relate to eternal life?

They are given eternal life. They aren't originally immortal. Consider this:
Genesis 3:22-24

And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.​

Revelation 2:7, 22:2, 22:14, 22:19 also talk about the tree of life and that is associated with eternal life.

So in Genesis you're saying that they were already immortal... but that doesn't seem to be the case in the passage I quoted. I guess this will be yet another time that you completely ignore one of my major points.

How are the damned to suffer eternal torment, as described, if nothing remains to experience eternal damnation?

They'd burn in an "unquenchable fire" (see post #138) and be destroyed. See post #126: "Their sentence and punishment of death will last forever", etc. (if you read all of that one page website you'd see other points as well)

Without soul, an immortal entity,

Souls don't have to be immortal.
e.g.
https://www.jewishnotgreek.com/#B

"Among major schools of Greek thought, only Epicureans denied the soul's immortality." (Craig S. Keener, The IVP Bible Background Commentary New Testament, Downers Grove, Inter Varsity Press, 1993, p.374)​

​

"...'immortality of the soul,' as normally understood, is not a Biblical doctrine" (The International Bible Commentary, second edition, Grand Rapids, MI, Zondervan Publishing House, 1986, p.60 column 2)

​

how are the saved to experience their reward?

They could be given eternal life.

You can't have one without the other. The dead experience nothing.

I think according to some parts of the Bible the dead sit in the ground then one day they are resurrected... then if they are sent to hell they could burn up or be given eternal life....

 

[bilby]

And while we're at it, a neurology text which demonstrates that the soul exists?

https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc461684/
(Pam Reynolds case - Journal of Near-Death Studies)

Abstract: The well-known Pam Reynolds near-death experience (NDE) occurred at the Barrow Neurological Institute during a medically well-documented period, which is why many people regard it as proof of the reality of a separable immaterial conscious mind.

Science says brain death = dead brain = total bodily inability to experience anything.
If the dead body isn't experiencing anything then it must be some form of discarnate consciousness which is having those sensations.

Science says brain death = dead brain = unrecoverable state of inability to experience anything.

If a patient recovers, then a) They weren't dead; and b) it's impossible to say in what state their brains were when the "experiences" they relate were formed (but it's very reasonable to expect that any such experiences occurred during and due to brain activity).

Dreams are not evidence of 'souls'. Not even the dreams of "nearly" dead people - being nearly dead is analogous to being nearly pregnant. And souls are as commonplace as the children of nearly pregnant women. Neither exists.

Unconscious people (including those merely asleep) have no sense of time, and cannot be expected to accurately judge how long after becoming unconscious (or before regaining consciousness) they were when their dreams occurred.

Duality contradicts (without evidence) some of the best tested scientific knowledge we have. Therefore claims that souls exist have the same validity as claims that perpetual motion machines exist - they should rightly be ridiculed as the ramblings of an ignoramus, unless and until an unequivocal and repeatable demonstration of one has been made.

Lots of charlatans have built perpetual motion machines, and all have turned out to be fakes. Lots of charlatans have claimed evidence for souls, but again not one has ever been able to withstand skeptical scrutiny. Lies and liars are commonplace. Souls and perpetual motion machines are fiction.

Nullius in verba, as they say at the Royal Society.

 

[ideologyhunter]

If a patient recovers, then a) They weren't dead; and b) it's impossible to say in what state their brains were when the "experiences" they relate were formed (but it's very reasonable to expect that any such experiences occurred during and due to brain activity).

I haven't read exhaustively on the near-death meme, but what I have read conforms to your points. It seems like a pretty desperate defense of the soul and heaven concepts. Furthermore, if you get a glimpse of the afterlife but doctors pull you back, have you punked God, or at least got in without paying the cover charge? Where are the bouncers?

 

[Lion IRC]

bilby moving the goal posts.
Brain dead doesn't mean "unrecoverable" because that would render the term brain dead meaningless.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

bilby moving the goal posts.
Brain dead doesn't mean "unrecoverable" because that would render the term brain dead meaningless.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2772257/

"Brain death is defined as the irreversible loss of all functions of the brain, including the brainstem."

Pretending to know more about a subject than you actually do again, I see.

 

[skepticalbip]

bilby moving the goal posts.
Brain dead doesn't mean "unrecoverable" because that would render the term brain dead meaningless.

Not at all. It would render the term brain dead to mean a loss of brain function that is unrecoverable. I think you are confusing brain dead with unconscious. I've been unconscious a few times but haven't yet been brain dead... though some have metaphorically described me that way.

 

[Lion IRC]

Irreversibility is not a defined condition.

 

[OLDMAN]

Yeah, dead is an absolute, not an almost. How hard is that? And since the person comes back from almost dead, the brain gets to experience lack of oxygen, unconscious rem states, all the chemicals and endorphins that are released natural by the brain and lots of whatever drugs they have been pumped full of......tripping...? fucking right their tripping...but they ain't going nowhere.

 

[Lion IRC]

bilby moving the goal posts.
Brain dead doesn't mean "unrecoverable" because that would render the term brain dead meaningless.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2772257/

...Pretending to know more about a subject than you actually do again, I see.

Ummm....That would be you.



What is the scientific test for irreversibility? Wait 3 days?

 

[excreationist]

And while we're at it, a neurology text which demonstrates that the soul exists?

https://www.lifesplayer.com/bible.php
"....I think ALL evidence of God and the paranormal can be explained by skeptics as coincidence, delusion, or hallucinations. Or involve fraud such as magic tricks..."

Also:
https://www.lifesplayer.com/afterlife.php

Near Death Experiences (NDEs)
These experiences can include:

• seeing what appears to be your body from the outside (OBE)

• seeing your life's memories flash before your eyes

• a light at the end of a tunnel

This is another example of seemingly supernatural phenomena having a scientific explanation - in this case it could be the result of a dying brain.​

 

[GenesisNemesis]

bilby moving the goal posts.
Brain dead doesn't mean "unrecoverable" because that would render the term brain dead meaningless.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2772257/

...Pretending to know more about a subject than you actually do again, I see.

Ummm....That would be you.

View attachment 31683

What is the scientific test for irreversibility? Wait 3 days?

The article I linked actually goes into superb detail, but considering you don't care about facts, you won't read it. Probably contains words too big for you to understand.

 

[DBT]

They are given eternal life. They aren't originally immortal. Consider this:
Genesis 3:22-24

And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.​

Revelation 2:7, 22:2, 22:14, 22:19 also talk about the tree of life and that is associated with eternal life.

So in Genesis you're saying that they were already immortal... but that doesn't seem to be the case in the passage I quoted. I guess this will be yet another time that you completely ignore one of my major points.

How are the damned to suffer eternal torment, as described, if nothing remains to experience eternal damnation?

They'd burn in an "unquenchable fire" (see post #138) and be destroyed. See post #126: "Their sentence and punishment of death will last forever", etc. (if you read all of that one page website you'd see other points as well)

Without soul, an immortal entity,

Souls don't have to be immortal.
e.g.
https://www.jewishnotgreek.com/#B

"Among major schools of Greek thought, only Epicureans denied the soul's immortality." (Craig S. Keener, The IVP Bible Background Commentary New Testament, Downers Grove, Inter Varsity Press, 1993, p.374)​

​

"...'immortality of the soul,' as normally understood, is not a Biblical doctrine" (The International Bible Commentary, second edition, Grand Rapids, MI, Zondervan Publishing House, 1986, p.60 column 2)

​

how are the saved to experience their reward?

They could be given eternal life.

You can't have one without the other. The dead experience nothing.

I think according to some parts of the Bible the dead sit in the ground then one day they are resurrected... then if they are sent to hell they could burn up or be given eternal life....

There are verses to be found that support opposing propositions, soul, no soul, predestination, freedom, eternal torment, universal salvation, etc, etc....to claim that verses which clearly describe eternal damnation mean something they do not say or mean is false.

 

[bilby]

bilby moving the goal posts.
Brain dead doesn't mean "unrecoverable"

Yes, it does.

because that would render the term brain dead meaningless.

No, it wouldn't.

 

[bilby]

Ummm....That would be you.

View attachment 31683

What is the scientific test for irreversibility? Wait 3 days?

The article I linked actually goes into superb detail, but considering you don't care about facts, you won't read it. Probably contains words too big for you to understand.

But, but, but it's contradicted by the plot of a fantasy film!

Next you'll be telling me that you don't believe that ROUSs even exist...

 

[GenesisNemesis]

bilby moving the goal posts.
Brain dead doesn't mean "unrecoverable" because that would render the term brain dead meaningless.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2772257/

...Pretending to know more about a subject than you actually do again, I see.

Ummm....That would be you.

View attachment 31683

What is the scientific test for irreversibility? Wait 3 days?

Also, your contempt of science is showing. Typical of religious fanatic anti-intellectuals.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

While we're at it, do I get to make baseless assumptions about religion too? Or is Lion the only one who gets to make baseless assumptions?

 

[ideologyhunter]

Isaiah 2 8:22-5: I have heard a decree of destruction from the Lord GOD......Give ear, and hear my voice...Does he who plows for sowing plow all the time? When he has leveled the surface, does he not scatter the dill?

For what it is worth:
My last clear memory was kneeling down. I was looking for something. Seeking.
I felt a blast of pain which seemed to shoot into my brain.
Then I sank down. The pain left me, and a warm feeling flooded my face, my hands, my chest.
There was darkness at first, then faraway sounds, then a light which seemed to waver in front of me as it grew stronger.
I was lifted up...without moving my limbs....
The light increased. It was a pure white, undiluted light, coming from straight above.
Eventually the light disclosed my surroundings, and they took shape in amazing variety and colors.
I was in a long, straight sort of hallway, with brilliant light above.
I was in a good place, a very good place. I knew it.
There were others around me, and they had peaceful contentment on their faces. They had no cares.
I looked, and every possible earthly pleasure was heaped around me on the sides of this bright hallway. Mine for the taking.
I stood tall. Suddenly a dizzy throbbing in my head made me weak, and the strong smell of dill wafted into my nose.
I thought of Isaiah. I thought of the man plowing in the field of the Lord GOD.
I remembered kneeling down to look at the price of ketchup while the man beside me lost his grip on one of those damn five-pound jars of WalMart pickles.
Near death? I do believe it.

 

[excreationist]

There are verses to be found that support opposing propositions, soul, no soul, predestination, freedom, eternal torment, universal salvation, etc, etc...

Yes like in post #142 Genesis 2 they are initially mortal.

to claim that verses which clearly describe eternal damnation mean something they do not say or mean is false.

I'm saying it is a church tradition from the 2nd century because of the Greek belief in the immortality of the soul. You keep on ignoring my major points like post #138 etc.

BTW Zondervan is the creator of the NIV...
"...'immortality of the soul,' as normally understood, is not a Biblical doctrine" (The International Bible Commentary, second edition, Grand Rapids, MI, Zondervan Publishing House, 1986, p.60 column 2)

And living eternally in hell would mean the soul is immortal....
Though I'm just going around in circles....

 

[Lion IRC]

bilby moving the goal posts.
Brain dead doesn't mean "unrecoverable"

Yes, it does.

No, it doesn't. People who have been pronounced brain dead have revived and recounted out of body sensory experiences while their body was clinically dead - brain dead.

because that would render the term brain dead meaningless.

No, it wouldn't.

Yes, it would and it does because you can't pre-define the term "irreversible" without post-hoc benefit of hindsight.

Its like saying you're not completely dead- just mostly dead - and we won't know if you meet the definition of dead unless and until you stay dead.