A God without compelling evidence?

[DrZoidberg]

Are people familiar with my kind of slippery logic?

Yes, I started making a serious reply but stopped. Your logic isn't logic at all. It makes no sense. Wouldn't we have more hope if God revealed himself and explained the rules of the game, rather than having us thrash about blindly in the dark. A God with your light touch breeds nothing but nihilism, the opposite of hope.

 

[excreationist]

Are people familiar with my kind of slippery logic?

Yes, I started making a serious reply but stopped. Your logic isn't logic at all. It makes no sense. Wouldn't we have more hope if God revealed himself and explained the rules of the game, rather than having us thrash about blindly in the dark. A God with your light touch breeds nothing but nihilism, the opposite of hope.

It's about God playing "hide and seek" like Kabbalah and Alan Watts say. It's not about maximizing hope (if that means God being completely obvious). If it bred "nothing but nihilism" then why aren't I depressed whenever I believe in a God with a light touch? I have been familiar with nihilism (leading to depression and a suicide attempt). Apparently nihilists believe life has no meaning...

 

[DBT]

Your 'Jewish not Greek' article gives a perspective on the issue, but that doesn't change what is written in the bible, or what the verses I quoted say on eternal damnation. The problem with the bible is that it allows different interpretations, each interpretation based on cherry picking.

Please also check out the 3 minute excerpt here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=4832&v=W66HP-3HO_A

And this link I added later:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_universalism#Eternal_Hell_in_Christian_history

What they're saying about church history seems accurate... and so the interpretation you're so fond of was based on later church tradition... based on the Greek idea of an immortal soul rather than starting with the Bible...

I'm aware that there are many alternate views, interpretations and beliefs.

I specifically posted verses that tell us that anyone not 'written in the book of life' take their place with the damned, to be tormented forever and ever.

This has nothing to do with me, my beliefs, my assumptions or claims.....it is simply what the bible describes in these verses. The verses are clearly present. They clearly say what they say about damnation.

 

[excreationist]

I'm aware that there are many alternate views, interpretations and beliefs.

That YouTube movie excerpt is very significant... it is about studying other sources rather than just starting with a 2nd century tradition

I specifically posted verses that tell us that anyone not 'written in the book of life' take their place with the damned, to be tormented forever and ever.

Revelation 20:14-15 says
"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."
Revelation 14:10b-11:
"....They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”
https://www.jewishnotgreek.com/
talks about what "smoke of their torment" means....

The Wikipedia article talks about Mistranslation of the Greek Word "Aion" ("eternal")
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_universalism#Eternal_Hell_in_Christian_history

This has nothing to do with me, my beliefs, my assumptions or claims.....it is simply what the bible describes in these verses. The verses are clearly present. They clearly say what they say about damnation.

What about things like Mark 16:9 onwards? Even the NIV says it was added later...
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark 16&version=NIV
The Bible isn't as black and white as you might suspect.

 

[DBT]

That YouTube movie excerpt is very significant... it is about studying other sources rather than just starting with a 2nd century tradition


Revelation 20:14-15 says
"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."
Revelation 14:10b-11:
"....They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”
https://www.jewishnotgreek.com/
talks about what "smoke of their torment" means....

The Wikipedia article talks about Mistranslation of the Greek Word "Aion" ("eternal")
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_universalism#Eternal_Hell_in_Christian_history

This has nothing to do with me, my beliefs, my assumptions or claims.....it is simply what the bible describes in these verses. The verses are clearly present. They clearly say what they say about damnation.

What about things like Mark 16:9 onwards? Even the NIV says it was added later...
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark 16&version=NIV
The Bible isn't as black and white as you might suspect.

The bible is certainly not black and white, and there partly lies the problem: you can support completely opposing views by carefully selecting words and verses while ignoring both context and other verses.

As for the word Aionion, that is used in reference to both eternal life in glory and eternal damnation, basically 'forever and ever.''

What Does “Aionion” Mean?

''In the debate about the theological validity of Christian universalism one sometimes finds discussion about the meaning of the word “eternal” in Matthew 25:46. Christ there says plainly that the unrighteous “will go away into eternal punishment”, and the word here rendered “eternal” is the Greek aionion [αιωνιον]. Some suggest that the word simply means “age-long”, indicating that the punishment of the unrighteous will endure for an age and then come to an end, and they point out that the root of the word is aeon [αιων], meaning “age”. What are we to make of this?

Sometimes the word αιων does indeed mean “age” in the sense of a limited duration of time which comes to an end. Thus St. Paul in Romans 16:25: “God…is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages [Greek αιωνιοις] and has now been manifested”. We see here that the word αιων means a limited duration of time, since the ages of time when the mystery had been kept secret came to an end when Christ appeared and was proclaimed by the apostles. Accordingly, one of the meanings of αιων in the Arndt-Gingrich lexicon is “a segment of time, age”. It can also mean “a world” as a spatial concept. Thus Hebrews 11:3: “By faith we understand that the worlds [Greek αιωνας] were created by the Word of God”.

But it can also mean everlasting, and as such it is applied to God and His dominion and power over all the cosmos, such as in 1 Timothy 6:16: “To Him [i.e. God] be honour and eternal [Greek αιωνιον] dominion”. Presumably God’s dominion is unending and everlasting. The debate about the precise meaning of aionion therefore cannot be solved simply by consulting a lexicon. The word varies in its meaning according to its usage''

 

[excreationist]

The bible is certainly not black and white, and there partly lies the problem: you can support completely opposing views by carefully selecting words and verses while ignoring both context and other verses.

As for the word Aionion, that is used in reference to both eternal life in glory and eternal damnation, basically 'forever and ever.'....

There is another interpretation that you might not have considered:
https://www.jewishnotgreek.com

What about the eternal punishment of Matthew 25:46?

....the punishment (or wages) of sin according to Scripture is always death. Romans 6:23 and many other Scriptures state this very clearly, "The wages of sin is death." And how long will this punishment of death last? Remember, this verse is taking place while they are standing before God and know that He can bring anyone back from death. Perhaps God will raise them back to life to enjoy the Kingdom they will clearly see in front of them? No, they will be told they will miss out on the joy of being alive forever. Their sentence and punishment of death will last forever. That is why he tells them it is eternal punishment. It is a complete shame that believers have such a low view on the gift of life and existence from God that they do not believe having a person's life removed is a punishment. Yet it is a punishment. And that punishment will last forever.
​

You might think that is a weak counter-argument but my point is that they have a counter-argument for every verse that seems to support eternal torment. Also I think the point that the church only started that tradition in the 2nd century is an important one.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Are people familiar with my kind of slippery logic?

Yes, I started making a serious reply but stopped. Your logic isn't logic at all. It makes no sense. Wouldn't we have more hope if God revealed himself and explained the rules of the game, rather than having us thrash about blindly in the dark. A God with your light touch breeds nothing but nihilism, the opposite of hope.

It's about God playing "hide and seek" like Kabbalah and Alan Watts say. It's not about maximizing hope (if that means God being completely obvious). If it bred "nothing but nihilism" then why aren't I depressed whenever I believe in a God with a light touch? I have been familiar with nihilism (leading to depression and a suicide attempt). Apparently nihilists believe life has no meaning...

Alan Watts is a postmodern thinker. He has taken ancient wisdom and religious tradition and tried to extract useful lessons from it, for people who aren't religious. It's a project started by Jürgen Habermas and continued by people like Alain de Botton.

There's a very unhelpful vocal strain within atheism to see religion as nothing but an evil corrupting force ruining everything it touches. Atheism is often seen as inherently opposed to religion. So when a thinker like Allan Watts comes along it's easy to put him in the religious camp. But he wasn't. I've read everything he's ever said. Allan Watts is clearly an atheist. He refused to make any statement regarding whether he was atheist, agnostic or theist. As a matter of principle. But if you look at what the man is saying, the existence of God/gods is a non factor to his ideas. All he's saying is about what we can learn from religion in in spite of (or no matter if god) doesn't exist. I'm a big Allan Watts fan.

The whole point of what Allan Watts is saying is how to be an atheist and avoid Nihilism. It was the same thing Nietzsche went on about. It's his "affirmative nihilism". You can accept that God doesn't exist. But if you do you still need to live your life as if he does or your life will lack direction and end up in despair.

Yes, nihilism is a dead end. All atheists will at some point need to come to terms with it and figure out what to use as a proxy for God to motivate them to give them direction. What atheists mean when they say "we have to find our own meaning in life".

 

[DBT]

The bible is certainly not black and white, and there partly lies the problem: you can support completely opposing views by carefully selecting words and verses while ignoring both context and other verses.

As for the word Aionion, that is used in reference to both eternal life in glory and eternal damnation, basically 'forever and ever.'....

There is another interpretation that you might not have considered:
https://www.jewishnotgreek.com

What about the eternal punishment of Matthew 25:46?

....the punishment (or wages) of sin according to Scripture is always death. Romans 6:23 and many other Scriptures state this very clearly, "The wages of sin is death." And how long will this punishment of death last? Remember, this verse is taking place while they are standing before God and know that He can bring anyone back from death. Perhaps God will raise them back to life to enjoy the Kingdom they will clearly see in front of them? No, they will be told they will miss out on the joy of being alive forever. Their sentence and punishment of death will last forever. That is why he tells them it is eternal punishment. It is a complete shame that believers have such a low view on the gift of life and existence from God that they do not believe having a person's life removed is a punishment. Yet it is a punishment. And that punishment will last forever.
​

You might think that is a weak counter-argument but my point is that they have a counter-argument for every verse that seems to support eternal torment. Also I think the point that the church only started that tradition in the 2nd century is an important one.

There are no counter arguments, only contradictions and cherry picking. The bible is full of contradictions.

Yet it remains that same word is used in reference to those destinrd for eternal
Glory as those bound for eternal damnation. So if the former is forever/eternal, as the context is clearly meant to convey, so is the latter: eternal damnation. You can't pick and choose your meaning according to whim or desire.

 

[excreationist]

....Yet it remains that same word is used in reference to those destined for eternal
Glory as those bound for eternal damnation. So if the former is forever/eternal, as the context is clearly meant to convey, so is the latter: eternal damnation. You can't pick and choose your meaning according to whim or desire.

What I quoted agrees with forever meaning forever.... it is talking about an eternal punishment talking about eternal consequences... it is saying that death has eternal consequences. BTW it makes a difference whether you have a lens of the Jewish belief that the soul is mortal or the Greek belief that the soul is immortal (which became a major church tradition in the 2nd century)

 

[DBT]

....Yet it remains that same word is used in reference to those destined for eternal
Glory as those bound for eternal damnation. So if the former is forever/eternal, as the context is clearly meant to convey, so is the latter: eternal damnation. You can't pick and choose your meaning according to whim or desire.

What I quoted agrees with forever meaning forever.... it is talking about an eternal punishment talking about eternal consequences... it is saying that death has eternal consequences. BTW it makes a difference whether you have a lens of the Jewish belief that the soul is mortal or the Greek belief that the soul is immortal (which became a major church tradition in the 2nd century)

Death is an eternal condition. The dead are dead forever. The problem is that there are verses that specify eternal torment. The dead cannot be tormented. The dead are beyond shame and suffering, beyond torment....the dead experience nothing.

 

[excreationist]

....Death is an eternal condition. The dead are dead forever.

Yes.

The problem is that there are verses that specify eternal torment. The dead cannot be tormented. The dead are beyond shame and suffering, beyond torment....the dead experience nothing.

They could be tormented - then die....

See Doesn't Revelation14 tell us that people will be tormented forever?
https://www.jewishnotgreek.com/

You might be cherry picking too... I mean please explain:

Why would God choose the words like "destroy, destruction, perish, death" to signify something other than their plain meaning?

Psalm 92:7-"Shall be destroyed forever."

Psalm 1:6-"But the way of the ungodly shall perish."

Matthew 10:28-"Rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

John 3:16-"Whosoever believeth in him should not perish." (Greek: destroyed)

Romans 6:23-"For the wages of sin is death."

James 4:12-"There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy."

Philippians 3:19-"Whose end is destruction."

2 Thessalonians 1:9-"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction."

Hebrews 10:39-"But we are not of them who draw back unto perditio (Greek: destruction); but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."

Revelation 20:14-"This is the second death."
​

How can something that survives forever be said to be destroyed? How is being conscious forever "death"?

 

[Lion IRC]

I dont think there is any scriptural 'slam dunk' which conclusively determines that destroy means absolute anhiliation - permanent cessation of existence.

Neither is it clear exactly what is being destroyed. So, it might be that the 'thing' destroyed continues to exist in some desolate form of ruins.

 

[OLDMAN]

The bible doesn't just sway back and forth on the issue of eternal punishment, it does so on everything. Love, lust, war, slavery, death, life, prayer, and god's actions. Exodus 4:24-26 has to be the weirdest verse in the bible. lol

 

[ideologyhunter]

The bible doesn't just sway back and forth on the issue of eternal punishment, it does so on everything. Love, lust, war, slavery, death, life, prayer, and god's actions. Exodus 4:24-26 has to be the weirdest verse in the bible. lol

Yeah, it's like you can fool God with second-hand circumcision. Fellas, if you're goin' out a-sinnin', pack a good sharp mohel blade. Thirty Rock used that passage in some episode, I believe. There was some pretext where Liz Lemon wanted a Bible quote and her eyes fell on that one -- disastrously. I think she was at a wedding.
Another Bible weirdie -- but in a completely different vein (ugh -- wrong phrase to use, considering what Zipporah pulls off in Exodus 4 -- and, here again, 'pulls off' is probably insensitive) -- is Judges 10:1, which gives the lineage of the Hebrew leader Tola. "...Tola, the son of Puah and grandson of Dodo." It always makes me wonder if Tola wasn't pissed that he wasn't named Puah II or if Puah wasn't pissed that he couldn't be Dodo II. Something to meditate on, and yes, pastors, you can steal this for your next Sunday message.

 

[DBT]

....Death is an eternal condition. The dead are dead forever.

Yes.

The problem is that there are verses that specify eternal torment. The dead cannot be tormented. The dead are beyond shame and suffering, beyond torment....the dead experience nothing.

They could be tormented - then die....

See Doesn't Revelation14 tell us that people will be tormented forever?
https://www.jewishnotgreek.com/

You might be cherry picking too... I mean please explain:

Why would God choose the words like "destroy, destruction, perish, death" to signify something other than their plain meaning?

Psalm 92:7-"Shall be destroyed forever."

Psalm 1:6-"But the way of the ungodly shall perish."

Matthew 10:28-"Rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

John 3:16-"Whosoever believeth in him should not perish." (Greek: destroyed)

Romans 6:23-"For the wages of sin is death."

James 4:12-"There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy."

Philippians 3:19-"Whose end is destruction."

2 Thessalonians 1:9-"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction."

Hebrews 10:39-"But we are not of them who draw back unto perditio (Greek: destruction); but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."

Revelation 20:14-"This is the second death."
​

How can something that survives forever be said to be destroyed? How is being conscious forever "death"?

They could be tormented then die, but that's not what the verses I quoted say.

They clearly describe eternal damnation and eternal torment. There is no way around it, they say what they say.

Then there are other verses suggestive of universal salvation, forgiveness, etc.... where then does that leave us?

 

[excreationist]

How can something that survives forever be said to be destroyed? How is being conscious forever "death"?

They could be tormented then die, but that's not what the verses I quoted say.

Well Edward Fudge's 400+ page book with 80 passages would disagree... and I know a conservative preacher who did his doctorate on hell and he came to a similar conclusion. You haven't given evidence of reading the whole Jewish not Greek site - it includes investigating "the smoke of their torment" or "the worm that doesn't die" or "gnashing of teeth", etc, etc.
You just say things like "There are no counter arguments, only contradictions and cherry picking" rather than respond to those counter arguments. But I guess that's how it's going to be.

They clearly describe eternal damnation and eternal torment. There is no way around it, they say what they say.

Then there are other verses suggestive of universal salvation, forgiveness, etc.... where then does that leave us?

You missed responding to what I wrote in post #131 listing verses and two questions.... by skipping that hard part you seem to be cherry picking....
Universal salvation is off topic - I mean there is good evidence that eternal torment started in the 2nd century.
BTW you said "each interpretation based on cherry picking" and you ignoring those death/destruction verses seems to be cherry picking for your interpretation.

So... How can something that survives forever be said to be destroyed? How is being conscious forever "death"?
and...Why would God choose the words like "destroy, destruction, perish, death" to signify something other than their plain meaning?

That's simpler than me trying to keep repeating the other counter-arguments (even though you say "there are no counter arguments")

You seem to have a very high confidence yet I suspect you haven't read many books about hell....

(the "Dunning-Kruger effect")

 

[DBT]

Well Edward Fudge's 400+ page book with 80 passages would disagree... and I know a conservative preacher who did his doctorate on hell and he came to a similar conclusion. You haven't given evidence of reading the whole Jewish not Greek site - it includes investigating "the smoke of their torment" or "the worm that doesn't die" or "gnashing of teeth", etc, etc.

It doesn't matter if Edward Fudge or your conservative preacher disagree. It is there for anyone to see and read. Plain as day, no equivocation whatsoever....and read that way from the beginning. Sure there are apologists who try to alter what the verses say and transform them into something they don't say, but it's just an exercise in futility;

From Ignatius of Antioch (110AD)

Ignatius was a student of the Apostle John, and succeeded the Apostle Peter as the Bishop of Antioch. He wrote a number of important letters to believers in churches in the area:

Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death. how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God. for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him. (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2)

From Tatian (160AD)
We who are now easily susceptible to death, will afterwards receive immortality with either enjoyment or with pain. (Ante-Nicene Fathers 1.71)


From Clement of Alexandria (195AD)
All souls are immortal, even those of the wicked. Yet, it would be better for them if they were not deathless. For they are punished with the endless vengeance of quenchless fire. Since they do not die, it is impossible for them to have an end put to their misery. (from a post-Nicene manuscript fragment)

 

[excreationist]

....From Ignatius of Antioch (110AD)

Ignatius was a student of the Apostle John, and succeeded the Apostle Peter as the Bishop of Antioch. He wrote a number of important letters to believers in churches in the area:

Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death. how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God. for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him. (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2)

https://www.jewishnotgreek.com/ says:

Trees with bad fruit are burned (Matthew 7:19), and so are unfruitful vines (John 15:6) and useless weeds (Matthew 13:40). These figures are all employed to depict the fate of sinners at the final reckoning. They will be cast into "unquenchable fire." This is the Greek word asbestos which means "inextinguishable." It describes a fire which burns without interruption; it is an enduring fire which none can extinguish no matter how hard they might try. It is important to notice here, however, that it is the fire that Jesus describes as enduring, NOT that which is cast into it. To try and transfer the quality of endurance from the fire itself to that which is cast into it is completely unwarranted either grammatically, logically, or theologically.​

That which is cast into the fire will BURN UP. This is the Greek word katakaio which means "to burn up; consume." It signifies to completely, utterly, totally destroy with fire. It is enlightening, in the context of this study, to note that this word is used in the LXX (Septuagint) in Exodus 3:2 where Moses beholds a burning bush-"The bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was NOT consumed." This particular bush was preserved in the fire (what the Traditionalists proclaim will happen with the wicked), yet Jesus disagrees with this doctrine. Jesus informs us that sinners will NOT be preserved in the fire (like the burning bush was), but rather will be "burned up"-just the opposite of preservation.

(note Fudge's main book is called "The Fire That Consumes")

​

From Tatian (160AD)
We who are now easily susceptible to death, will afterwards receive immortality with either enjoyment or with pain. (Ante-Nicene Fathers 1.71)

From Clement of Alexandria (195AD)
All souls are immortal, even those of the wicked. Yet, it would be better for them if they were not deathless. For they are punished with the endless vengeance of quenchless fire. Since they do not die, it is impossible for them to have an end put to their misery. (from a post-Nicene manuscript fragment)

These last two is what I'm talking about - they clearly say the soul is immortal. And like Fudge says it is from the 2nd century. Can you find any verses in the Bible that say the soul is immortal?

 

[ideologyhunter]

And while we're at it, a neurology text which demonstrates that the soul exists?

 

[DBT]

....From Ignatius of Antioch (110AD)

Ignatius was a student of the Apostle John, and succeeded the Apostle Peter as the Bishop of Antioch. He wrote a number of important letters to believers in churches in the area:

Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death. how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God. for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him. (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2)

https://www.jewishnotgreek.com/ says:

Trees with bad fruit are burned (Matthew 7:19), and so are unfruitful vines (John 15:6) and useless weeds (Matthew 13:40). These figures are all employed to depict the fate of sinners at the final reckoning. They will be cast into "unquenchable fire." This is the Greek word asbestos which means "inextinguishable." It describes a fire which burns without interruption; it is an enduring fire which none can extinguish no matter how hard they might try. It is important to notice here, however, that it is the fire that Jesus describes as enduring, NOT that which is cast into it. To try and transfer the quality of endurance from the fire itself to that which is cast into it is completely unwarranted either grammatically, logically, or theologically.​

That which is cast into the fire will BURN UP. This is the Greek word katakaio which means "to burn up; consume." It signifies to completely, utterly, totally destroy with fire. It is enlightening, in the context of this study, to note that this word is used in the LXX (Septuagint) in Exodus 3:2 where Moses beholds a burning bush-"The bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was NOT consumed." This particular bush was preserved in the fire (what the Traditionalists proclaim will happen with the wicked), yet Jesus disagrees with this doctrine. Jesus informs us that sinners will NOT be preserved in the fire (like the burning bush was), but rather will be "burned up"-just the opposite of preservation.

(note Fudge's main book is called "The Fire That Consumes")

​

From Tatian (160AD)
We who are now easily susceptible to death, will afterwards receive immortality with either enjoyment or with pain. (Ante-Nicene Fathers 1.71)

From Clement of Alexandria (195AD)
All souls are immortal, even those of the wicked. Yet, it would be better for them if they were not deathless. For they are punished with the endless vengeance of quenchless fire. Since they do not die, it is impossible for them to have an end put to their misery. (from a post-Nicene manuscript fragment)

These last two is what I'm talking about - they clearly say the soul is immortal. And like Fudge says it is from the 2nd century. Can you find any verses in the Bible that say the soul is immortal?

In relation to verses describing reward and punishment, how does the concept of soul relate to eternal life? How are the damned to suffer eternal torment, as described, if nothing remains to experience eternal damnation?

Without soul, an immortal entity, how are the saved to experience their reward?

You can't have one without the other. The dead experience nothing.