A living profit

[ZiprHead]

People say they advocate a living wage. I say "how much?" I don't get an answer, because my question is considered "complex." People say corporate profits are too high and there should be a limit. I say "how much?" I don't get answer for the same reason. I'm willing to discuss any given number for either of those questions. I'll probably be on the opposing side of the discussion, but I'm willing to discuss it. I'll be reasonable and discuss it.

This is part of why I say it's really a code-word for "more than they are worth". Almost nobody is willing to put numbers to it--which only makes sense if they know those numbers are unreasonable.

More than they are worth is bullshit. The janitorial staff at a Walmart is paid minimum wage yet their job is absolutely essential to the smooth running of their stores. If the stores are dirty, people will stop shopping there. Their worth for the work they do is infinitely more than the remuneration they get. They get paid what they do because they are easily replaced, not on the value of the work they do.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

How do you assess how much profit a worker deserves?

Let's try an example:

Worker A is a data entry clerk for a company that makes $600 million profit/yr.
Worker B is an identically performing data entry clerk for a company that loses $100 per year.

How much does each deserve?

I thought we were talking about profits.

Something more than zero.

If people actually cared we would have all kinds of ways to make estimates. We are incredibly good at coming up with ways to make estimates.

The point is the two workers are doing exactly the same thing.

Why does A deserve any more than B? A is not doing anything different to make those profits.

 

[Canard DuJour]

We define the precise dollar amount distinguishing an excessive or an exploitative remuneration the same way we define the precise weight distinguishing a fat person, the precise age distinguishing an adult or the precise number of grains distinguishing a heap.

ie Not.

Because to do so would be misleading, necessarily inaccurate and silly. Countless meaningful and important distinctions we make are like that.


Thus we conclude that, like excessive or exploitative remunerations, there are no fat people, adults or heaps.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

You could, theoretically, define excessive profits by some mathematical equation that shows a ratio of expenses, revenue, and profits, and say "a certain percentage in this ratio qualifies".

Personally I think the real reason it is undefined is so that if perchance you get profit limits or higher bottom wages you can still press for more, and more, and more, and more........

You deliberately cannot reach your goal.

 

[untermensche]

I thought we were talking about profits.

Something more than zero.

If people actually cared we would have all kinds of ways to make estimates. We are incredibly good at coming up with ways to make estimates.

The point is the two workers are doing exactly the same thing.

Why does A deserve any more than B? A is not doing anything different to make those profits.

They are doing different things.

One is supporting a highly profitable company and one is not.

Why should supporting a profitable company with your irreplaceable labor not get you anything?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The point is the two workers are doing exactly the same thing.

Why does A deserve any more than B? A is not doing anything different to make those profits.

They are doing different things.

One is supporting a highly profitable company and one is not.

Why should supporting a profitable company with your irreplaceable labor not get you anything?

But what is the difference between what A and B are doing?

You're basically awarding wages by lottery.

 

[untermensche]

They are doing different things.

One is supporting a highly profitable company and one is not.

Why should supporting a profitable company with your irreplaceable labor not get you anything?

But what is the difference between what A and B are doing?

You're basically awarding wages by lottery.

So making a profit is equivalent to winning the lottery?

Why should people who help a company by expending irreplaceable labor make a profit not share in those profits?

Why are they somehow excluded? Where do we get the right to exclude them?

Because those with power, the oligarchs, tell us it is alright to exclude them? The oligarchs are the definers of morality? We live by the morality of the oligarch? "All for me and none for you. Even though we labor together."

 

[Harry Bosch]

But what is the difference between what A and B are doing?

You're basically awarding wages by lottery.

So making a profit is equivalent to winning the lottery?

Why should people who help a company by expending irreplaceable labor make a profit not share in those profits?

Why are they somehow excluded? Where do we get the right to exclude them?

Because those with power, the oligarchs, tell us it is alright to exclude them? The oligarchs are the definers of morality? We live by the morality of the oligarch? "All for me and none for you. Even though we labor together."

Before answering your question, do you also believe that workers should share in any losses?

 

[untermensche]

So making a profit is equivalent to winning the lottery?

Why should people who help a company by expending irreplaceable labor make a profit not share in those profits?

Why are they somehow excluded? Where do we get the right to exclude them?

Because those with power, the oligarchs, tell us it is alright to exclude them? The oligarchs are the definers of morality? We live by the morality of the oligarch? "All for me and none for you. Even though we labor together."

Before answering your question, do you also believe that workers should share in any losses?

What I think is that people should be paid in some relation to the value of the work they do.

Presently we have a few who's work is overvalued with the work of most undervalued. The best way to undervalue labor is to determine the price of labor in a market. That is how you get the lowest possible price for labor.

That is why we are all supposed to bow and lose our sanity over magic markets.

We have a few stealing from many. Institutional theft from millions. Done at the orders of oligarchs.

The system is so fucked up it should be completely thrown out. It can't be fixed. only made a little less dishonest. But that is done with unions and the oligarchs have managed to crush them into near extinction.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Before answering your question, do you also believe that workers should share in any losses?

What I think is that people should be paid in some relation to the value of the work they do.

Presently we have a few who's work is overvalued with the work of most undervalued. The best way to undervalue labor is to determine the price of labor in a market. That is how you get the lowest possible price for labor.

That is why we are all supposed to bow and lose our sanity over magic markets.

We have a few stealing from many. Institutional theft from millions. Done at the orders of oligarchs.

The system is so fucked up it should be completely thrown out. It can't be fixed. only made a little less dishonest. But that is done with unions and the oligarchs have managed to crush them into near extinction.

How do you measure "value" of a worker?

 

[untermensche]

What I think is that people should be paid in some relation to the value of the work they do.

Presently we have a few who's work is overvalued with the work of most undervalued. The best way to undervalue labor is to determine the price of labor in a market. That is how you get the lowest possible price for labor.

That is why we are all supposed to bow and lose our sanity over magic markets.

We have a few stealing from many. Institutional theft from millions. Done at the orders of oligarchs.

The system is so fucked up it should be completely thrown out. It can't be fixed. only made a little less dishonest. But that is done with unions and the oligarchs have managed to crush them into near extinction.

How do you measure "value" of a worker?

You start by looking at all workers. Then you look at profits.

That is what the labor of all workers has achieved.

When you start with that you can then begin to determine factors such as level of complexity, amount of physical energy needed, and other things to begin to determine estimates of value in that production of profits.

But in my system the need for physical energy is rated very high. It is human energy that makes everything move. Nothing moves because some oligarch issues dictates.

A complete system could not be the work of one man anymore than determining the value of property was the work of one man.

 

[Harry Bosch]

How do you measure "value" of a worker?

You start by looking at all workers. Then you look at profits.

That is what the labor of all workers has achieved.

So if a company's profit's are zero or negative, it's workers have zero value?

 

[untermensche]

You start by looking at all workers. Then you look at profits.

That is what the labor of all workers has achieved.

So if a company's profit's are zero or negative, it's workers have zero value?

Profits meaning anything over operating costs excluding labor costs.

How would you pay people with no money?

 

[Underseer]

You start by looking at all workers. Then you look at profits.

That is what the labor of all workers has achieved.

So if a company's profit's are zero or negative, it's workers have zero value?

Just imagine how much profits those companies could make if they didn't have to pay workers at all! Legalize slavery!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But what is the difference between what A and B are doing?

You're basically awarding wages by lottery.

So making a profit is equivalent to winning the lottery?

Why should people who help a company by expending irreplaceable labor make a profit not share in those profits?

Why are they somehow excluded? Where do we get the right to exclude them?

Because those with power, the oligarchs, tell us it is alright to exclude them? The oligarchs are the definers of morality? We live by the morality of the oligarch? "All for me and none for you. Even though we labor together."

From the standpoint of the average worker, yes--it's something outside their control. Chance.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Before answering your question, do you also believe that workers should share in any losses?

What I think is that people should be paid in some relation to the value of the work they do.

But that's not what you're asking for.

Presently we have a few who's work is overvalued with the work of most undervalued. The best way to undervalue labor is to determine the price of labor in a market. That is how you get the lowest possible price for labor.

By your standards. Who made you god?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

How do you measure "value" of a worker?

You start by looking at all workers. Then you look at profits.

That is what the labor of all workers has achieved.

When you start with that you can then begin to determine factors such as level of complexity, amount of physical energy needed, and other things to begin to determine estimates of value in that production of profits.

But in my system the need for physical energy is rated very high. It is human energy that makes everything move. Nothing moves because some oligarch issues dictates.

A complete system could not be the work of one man anymore than determining the value of property was the work of one man.

What's special about humans is our brains, not our muscles. Most of us value brain work much higher than muscle work. Muscle work is for machines.

You've never held a thinking type job, have you?

- - - Updated - - -

So if a company's profit's are zero or negative, it's workers have zero value?

Profits meaning anything over operating costs excluding labor costs.

How would you pay people with no money?

You want to give the workers the profits. You're still not addressing what happens if they are negative.

 

[untermensche]

What I think is that people should be paid in some relation to the value of the work they do.

But that's not what you're asking for.

Presently we have a few who's work is overvalued with the work of most undervalued. The best way to undervalue labor is to determine the price of labor in a market. That is how you get the lowest possible price for labor.

By your standards. Who made you god?

There is X amount of dollars to pay all workers in an enterprise. Or X amount of stock to give to all workers.

Presently we have a situation where most workers are paid as little as possible. They must compete in some inhumane market as if they are a bushel of corn.

And we also have a situation where some are paid astronomical sums that have no relation to anything except insane egos.

Most are stolen from so a tiny few can massage their egos. It is a thoroughly corrupt system with only a connection to oligarchical dreams.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Stolen. I assume you mean that figuratively since legalistically stolen is taking funds unlawfully. Kind of like when I say "taxation is theft" and people say "no, taxation is legal."

So, after the employer and the employee agree to the wage, and then the employer pays the employee the agreed upon wage, at what point does this figurative theft take place?

 

[untermensche]

Stolen. I assume you mean that figuratively since legalistically stolen is taking funds unlawfully. Kind of like when I say "taxation is theft" and people say "no, taxation is legal."

So, after the employer and the employee agree to the wage, and then the employer pays the employee the agreed upon wage, at what point does this figurative theft take place?

It is a system of institutional theft. The people who designed the system also designed the law.

Paying people a market wage is simply theft.

Separating labor from the fruits of its labor is theft.

And it is not a free agreement. Taking what is to the owner the lowest possible wage is simply better than starvation and deprivation which is the alternative. It is a coerced agreement.