A more honest article on the college rape mess

[Jolly_Penguin]

When it's fear of pregnancy, we expect her to prevent problems by either exercising birth control, or restraint. When it's fear of false rape charges, we expect her exercise restraint, again. We seem to require little responsibility for foolish actions from the man.

Why are you seeking to blame the victim?

We expect her to refrain from making false rape charges, as we expect him to refrain from rape.

Sure, there are precautions they may both take to avoid becoming victims, but that does not excuse the wrong being done to them.

Can not tell if you wrote your post in jest, but yes, a woman who makes false rape charges caused the problem, just as a real rapist causes a problem. Would you excuse him too?

 

[KeepTalking]

Where is the ACLU in all of this? I thought it was basically their mission to take on cases of people denied their due process and rights. Yet, they seem not to be found.

Perhaps the ACLU recognizes that due process has meaning with regard to legal proceedings, and campus discipline does not fall into that realm. You would think the lawyers in this story would realize this as well, but my guess is that the only thing they recognize is the chime of their cash register opening.

 

[Bronzeage]

When it's fear of pregnancy, we expect her to prevent problems by either exercising birth control, or restraint. When it's fear of false rape charges, we expect her exercise restraint, again. We seem to require little responsibility for foolish actions from the man.

Why are you seeking to blame the victim?

We expect her to refrain from making false rape charges, as we expect him to refrain from rape.

Sure, there are precautions they may both take to avoid becoming victims, but that does not excuse the wrong being done to them.

Can not tell if you wrote your post in jest, but yes, a woman who makes false rape charges caused the problem, just as a real rapist causes a problem. Would you excuse him too?

Because I don't like victims, why else? Whoops, there I go again.

I like the term "real rapist". It sounds sort of like "legitimate rape." Part of the problem of these situation is we have a person who is unaware that what he is doing is considered rape. Does this make him an unreal rapist.

This is a classic, "Doc, it hurts when I do this," situation.

If someone comes to me and says, "I got drunk in a bar and some guy fucked me when I couldn't resist," my first thought is, "Don't do that."

If someone comes to me and says, "I got drunk in a bar and met this girl and we fucked and now she says I raped her," my first thought is "Don't do that."

I'll concede that false rape accusations occur and I think they are like shark attacks. The horror of the idea of being eaten by a shark inflates our fear way out of proportion to the real likelihood of it happening. There is a very effective way to avoid shark bite, which is to stay out of reach of sharks. Some may say, "I have a right to dangle my legs in murky seawater, which is the natural habitat of a predator who has no concern for my well being," and they have a point.

I've been swimming in the ocean many times and have yet to be within arm's reach of a shark that wasn't hanging on a fishhook. I like sharks as much as the next guy, but I prefer them in situations where I have control. The "real false rape" accusation is a very rare thing. The real problem here, and the focus of this discussion is not "real rapists" and "real false rape" accusations. It is that grey area in between, where people's judgment is clouded and what seems like a good idea at the time, is a very bad idea.


We are discussing "the college rape" mess. I propose a really simple solution, which is to instruct young men to "not do that," which, instead of blaming the victim, prevents him from becoming a victim. We have a problem which stems from a particular behavior. It is unrealistic to think there is a solution which does not include modifying that behavior.

 

[Derec]

I like the term "real rapist". It sounds sort of like "legitimate rape." Part of the problem of these situation is we have a person who is unaware that what he is doing is considered rape. Does this make him an unreal rapist.

What he did is only considered "rape" by a small minority of radical feminists. Also, if they would apply their criteria consistently, it would make the girl just as much a "rapist" as him.
Also, a false rape allegation doesn't make one an "unreal rapist" but a real victim of a false rape allegation.

We are discussing "the college rape" mess. I propose a really simple solution, which is to instruct young men to "not do that," which, instead of blaming the victim, prevents him from becoming a victim. We have a problem which stems from a particular behavior. It is unrealistic to think there is a solution which does not include modifying that behavior.

How about teaching young women to not falsely accuse young men of rape when the only thing that happened was consensual sex that she regrets later? But no, it's not politically correct to say anything bad about women. And no, false rape allegations are not nearly as rare as you say. The "rare" meme was started and is sustained by radical feminists using very questionable numbers.

 

[laughing dog]

How about teaching young women to not falsely accuse young men of rape when the only thing that happened was consensual sex that she regrets later? But no, it's not politically correct to say anything bad about women. And no, false rape allegations are not nearly as rare as you say. The "rare" meme was started and is sustained by radical feminists using very questionable numbers.

I suppose it depends on what one views as "false rape allegations" and "rare". It is quite possible that a woman (or a man) does believe she (or he) has been raped even when someone else thinks they are just regretting some hookup.

I think it would useful to teach everyone to
1)come to terms with their actual feelings,
2) to respect the word "no",
3) to distinguish reality from fantasy, and
4) to only tell the truth.

 

[Bronzeage]

What he did is only considered "rape" by a small minority of radical feminists. Also, if they would apply their criteria consistently, it would make the girl just as much a "rapist" as him.
Also, a false rape allegation doesn't make one an "unreal rapist" but a real victim of a false rape allegation.

We are discussing "the college rape" mess. I propose a really simple solution, which is to instruct young men to "not do that," which, instead of blaming the victim, prevents him from becoming a victim. We have a problem which stems from a particular behavior. It is unrealistic to think there is a solution which does not include modifying that behavior.

How about teaching young women to not falsely accuse young men of rape when the only thing that happened was consensual sex that she regrets later? But no, it's not politically correct to say anything bad about women. And no, false rape allegations are not nearly as rare as you say. The "rare" meme was started and is sustained by radical feminists using very questionable numbers.

The times, they are achanging. I am not a feminist, but I consider having sex with a woman too intoxicated to understand the question, to be rape. If this sounds harsh to some ears, I don't apologise.

Your idea about teaching young women to not falsely accuse young men of rape is brilliant. It will rank right up there with the government's campaign to fight car theft by producing PSA's, encouraging people to not leave their keys in the car. It ended with the slogan, "Don't help a good boy go wrong."

I can see a 30 second ad, which features a young woman who wakes up behind a couch and wonders why her panties are missing. An announcer with a soft voice says, "If you were too drunk to say no, he may have been too drunk to hear you. Think twice about claiming you've been raped. The life you ruin might belong to a good boy."

 

[Toni]

How about teaching young women to not falsely accuse young men of rape when the only thing that happened was consensual sex that she regrets later? But no, it's not politically correct to say anything bad about women. And no, false rape allegations are not nearly as rare as you say. The "rare" meme was started and is sustained by radical feminists using very questionable numbers.

I suppose it depends on what one views as "false rape allegations" and "rare". It is quite possible that a woman (or a man) does believe she (or he) has been raped even when someone else thinks they are just regretting some hookup.

I think it would useful to teach everyone to
1)come to terms with their actual feelings,
2) to respect the word "no",
3) to distinguish reality from fantasy, and
4) to only tell the truth.

Also to recognize that people who have been drinking or using drugs often have very poor judgment.
And that people who are very intoxicated are legally considered to be incapable of giving consent.
Also that it isn't fun or funny to spike some one's drink.

 

[coloradoatheist]

I think we are getting to a point where we need a sexual consent form that you fill out prior to the act. Maybe a new phone app.

What happens Bronze when they do consent to it that night but in the morning they feel guilty about it? The issue is that it's a he said she said thing.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I think we are getting to a point where we need a sexual consent form that you fill out prior to the act. Maybe a new phone app.

What happens Bronze when they do consent to it that night but in the morning they feel guilty about it? The issue is that it's a he said she said thing.

Also, if someone's going to take the trouble to stalk and rape some defenseless woman while she's in a vulnerable and incapacitated state after having a beer or two, what's to stop him from taking her phone and filling out the form for her? The man is evil, after all.

 

[Toni]

I think we are getting to a point where we need a sexual consent form that you fill out prior to the act. Maybe a new phone app.

What happens Bronze when they do consent to it that night but in the morning they feel guilty about it? The issue is that it's a he said she said thing.

Also, if someone's going to take the trouble to stalk and rape some defenseless woman while she's in a vulnerable and incapacitated state after having a beer or two, what's to stop him from taking her phone and filling out the form for her? The man is evil, after all.

Without the form, all he has to do is get some of his buddies to swear she wanted it. Works pretty good now, no matter how passed out she was.

 

[coloradoatheist]

I think we are getting to a point where we need a sexual consent form that you fill out prior to the act. Maybe a new phone app.

What happens Bronze when they do consent to it that night but in the morning they feel guilty about it? The issue is that it's a he said she said thing.

Also, if someone's going to take the trouble to stalk and rape some defenseless woman while she's in a vulnerable and incapacitated state after having a beer or two, what's to stop him from taking her phone and filling out the form for her? The man is evil, after all.

You don't think there could be a service that uses a PIN to get in?

 

[Derec]

Without the form, all he has to do is get some of his buddies to swear she wanted it. Works pretty good now, no matter how passed out she was.

And all she has to do is get some of her girlfriends to say that she "appeared drunk" and he gets expelled. Works pretty well now, no matter that she sent him a message the next day saying that she had a great time and that she didn't decide she was "raped" until a year later (see Walker at Vassar).

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I think we are getting to a point where we need a sexual consent form that you fill out prior to the act. Maybe a new phone app.

What happens Bronze when they do consent to it that night but in the morning they feel guilty about it? The issue is that it's a he said she said thing.

Also, if someone's going to take the trouble to stalk and rape some defenseless woman while she's in a vulnerable and incapacitated state after having a beer or two, what's to stop him from taking her phone and filling out the form for her? The man is evil, after all.

You don't think there could be a service that uses a PIN to get in?

So, your plan is to let computer hackers get a free pass on rape? Nice, dude. Real nice.

 

[coloradoatheist]

I think we are getting to a point where we need a sexual consent form that you fill out prior to the act. Maybe a new phone app.

What happens Bronze when they do consent to it that night but in the morning they feel guilty about it? The issue is that it's a he said she said thing.

Also, if someone's going to take the trouble to stalk and rape some defenseless woman while she's in a vulnerable and incapacitated state after having a beer or two, what's to stop him from taking her phone and filling out the form for her? The man is evil, after all.

You don't think there could be a service that uses a PIN to get in?

So, your plan is to let computer hackers get a free pass on rape? Nice, dude. Real nice.

Computer hackers leave their family basement?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

So, your plan is to let computer hackers get a free pass on rape? Nice, dude. Real nice.

Computer hackers leave their family basement?

OK, you got me there. I withdraw the point.

 

[Derec]

I suppose it depends on what one views as "false rape allegations" and "rare". It is quite possible that a woman (or a man) does believe she (or he) has been raped even when someone else thinks they are just regretting some hookup.

Well if she was capable of consenting and she consented than it can't be rape no matter how she feels afterwards.
But there is the opposite problem within feminism - rape defined so broadly that even most "victims" do not consider themselves such.

I think it would useful to teach everyone to
1)come to terms with their actual feelings,
2) to respect the word "no",
3) to distinguish reality from fantasy, and
4) to only tell the truth.

All good points, but needs 2b) to respect the word "yes" - if she consented she can't take it back but if she regrets it she can let this experience guide her actions in the future.

The times, they are achanging. I am not a feminist, but I consider having sex with a woman too intoxicated to understand the question, to be rape. If this sounds harsh to some ears, I don't apologise.

We agree on that point and I can't imagine anyone would disagree either. However, some on here and elsewhere consider sex with women far less intoxicated equally as "rape" (Erick's scenario 1 in the other thread). That is one problem. The other problem is proving how intoxicated someone was when the sex was had - that is far from trivial and benefit of the doubt should go to the accused.

Your idea about teaching young women to not falsely accuse young men of rape is brilliant. It will rank right up there with the government's campaign to fight car theft by producing PSA's, encouraging people to not leave their keys in the car. It ended with the slogan, "Don't help a good boy go wrong."

Bad analogy - the false accuser is like the car thief. Your focus on what the guys should do to avoid being falsely accused (or what women can do to avoid being raped) is more akin to your car keys example.

I can see a 30 second ad, which features a young woman who wakes up behind a couch and wonders why her panties are missing. An announcer with a soft voice says, "If you were too drunk to say no, he may have been too drunk to hear you. Think twice about claiming you've been raped. The life you ruin might belong to a good boy."

We are talking here about women who knew what they were doing, said yes at the time, and then accused the guy of rape because they regretted the experience.

Also to recognize that people who have been drinking or using drugs often have very poor judgment.

People who have bad judgment can nevertheless consent.

And that people who are very intoxicated are legally considered to be incapable of giving consent.

Depends on the level of intoxication. Merely saying the girl "appeared drunk" is not enough to invalidate consent in the eyes of the law for example.

Also that it isn't fun or funny to spike some one's drink.

The sticking point is being able to prove it. And without evidence you can't convict someone of roofying your drink and neither should you be able to get them expelled without evidence.

 

[laughing dog]

Well if she was capable of consenting and she consented than it can't be rape no matter how she feels afterwards.

That is simply untrue as a general statement. Consent can be coerced or tricked.

 

[Toni]

Without the form, all he has to do is get some of his buddies to swear she wanted it. Works pretty good now, no matter how passed out she was.

And all she has to do is get some of her girlfriends to say that she "appeared drunk" and he gets expelled. Works pretty well now, no matter that she sent him a message the next day saying that she had a great time and that she didn't decide she was "raped" until a year later (see Walker at Vassar).

There was more to that case than that, as you well know. You are also aware that the only side of the story in the media is Yu's side.

 

[ksen]

Why does it seem that some people are getting pretty worked up about the pool of girls they can have sex with without going to jail shrinking even more?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Why does it seem that some people are getting pretty worked up about the pool of girls they can have sex with without going to jail shrinking even more?

I don't think that there are any people who are getting worked up about that