A more honest article on the college rape mess

[Derec]

That is simply untrue as a general statement. Consent can be coerced or tricked.

You are picking nits. My point was against this idea of retroactive withdrawal of consent, not in favor of coercion. Coerced acquiescence is not consent in my book (but saying things like "I will break up with you if you don't sleep with me" is not coercion no matter what the feminists of Ms. magazine say) so my statement still stands. Trickery is a more difficult concept and I do not see how you could police "truth in seduction" laws without it getting farcical.

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There was more to that case than that, as you well know. You are also aware that the only side of the story in the media is Yu's side.

Not that much more, and you know it. Besides, if Walker wants to give her side she is welcome to. I think that if she had any real evidence that she was raped she would have given her side by now.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You are picking nits. My point was against this idea of retroactive withdrawal of consent, not in favor of coercion. Coerced acquiescence is not consent in my book (but saying things like "I will break up with you if you don't sleep with me" is not coercion no matter what the feminists of Ms. magazine say) so my statement still stands. Trickery is a more difficult concept and I do not see how you could police "truth in seduction" laws without it getting farcical.

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There was more to that case than that, as you well know. You are also aware that the only side of the story in the media is Yu's side.

Not that much more, and you know it. Besides, if Walker wants to give her side she is welcome to. I think that if she had any real evidence that she was raped she would have given her side by now.

You don't care about "her side". All you care about is indisputable electronic surveillance of the rape. Otherwise, she, by your default, is a lying bitch.

 

[Toni]

You are picking nits. My point was against this idea of retroactive withdrawal of consent, not in favor of coercion. Coerced acquiescence is not consent in my book (but saying things like "I will break up with you if you don't sleep with me" is not coercion no matter what the feminists of Ms. magazine say) so my statement still stands. Trickery is a more difficult concept and I do not see how you could police "truth in seduction" laws without it getting farcical.

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There was more to that case than that, as you well know. You are also aware that the only side of the story in the media is Yu's side.

Not that much more, and you know it. Besides, if Walker wants to give her side she is welcome to. I think that if she had any real evidence that she was raped she would have given her side by now.

I don't actually know what happened that night and neither do you.

Why wouldn't Walker talk about this in public? So many rape victims just looooooove to disclose all of the gory details to the general public. After all, it is a public service to provide free masturbation material.

 

[laughing dog]

You are picking nits. My point was against this idea of retroactive withdrawal of consent, not in favor of coercion. Coerced acquiescence is not consent in my book (but saying things like "I will break up with you if you don't sleep with me" is not coercion no matter what the feminists of Ms. magazine say) so my statement still stands. Trickery is a more difficult concept and I do not see how you could police "truth in seduction" laws without it getting farcical.

Words have distinct meanings, and you don't get to redefine them in order to make a rhetorical point,
so I am hardly picking nits. Especially since your response tacitly condones tricking someone into giving consent, or to engage in emotional coercion to gain "consent".

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You are picking nits. My point was against this idea of retroactive withdrawal of consent, not in favor of coercion. Coerced acquiescence is not consent in my book (but saying things like "I will break up with you if you don't sleep with me" is not coercion no matter what the feminists of Ms. magazine say) so my statement still stands. Trickery is a more difficult concept and I do not see how you could police "truth in seduction" laws without it getting farcical.

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There was more to that case than that, as you well know. You are also aware that the only side of the story in the media is Yu's side.

Not that much more, and you know it. Besides, if Walker wants to give her side she is welcome to. I think that if she had any real evidence that she was raped she would have given her side by now.

You don't care about "her side". All you care about is indisputable electronic surveillance of the rape. Otherwise, she, by your default, is a lying bitch.

And once someone shows that some electronic surveillance was tampered with, even that will now become another tool of the radical feminazis to imprison all men on false rape charges.

 

[Bronzeage]

I think we are getting to a point where we need a sexual consent form that you fill out prior to the act. Maybe a new phone app.

What happens Bronze when they do consent to it that night but in the morning they feel guilty about it? The issue is that it's a he said she said thing.

A consent form is not a bad idea. It's been suggested many times. I remember reading about it in Playboy, back in the 70's. A better idea than the consent form would be to actually know the person whom you intend to stick your penis inside. I realize this is strange idea, but it has merits. If she has to be drunk to want you, something is wrong and when something is wrong, bad things happen.

This is the year 2014, not 1974. Is there some resurgence of chastity or purity movements on campus and I am so out of touch, I haven't heard about it? Is there some sort of Slut Police Force in charge of shaming women who have intercourse outside the bounds of matrimony?

Why else would a young woman feel guilty about having sex with someone? Someone please explain to this poor old man how this works. The last time I saw this kind of nonsense, I was in 8th grade.

I do have one suspicion. What maybe happening is, instead of feeling guilty the next day, the young woman might feel anger because she discovers she had sex with a man whom she would not have consented to have sex with, under other circumstances. When it comes down to it, the mournful cry, "But she let me do it," is just not a defense.

 

[Derec]

I don't actually know what happened that night and neither do you.

And neither do the college administators and therefore he should not have been expelled.

Why wouldn't Walker talk about this in public? So many rape victims just looooooove to disclose all of the gory details to the general public. After all, it is a public service to provide free masturbation material.

I don't think it's very likely at all that she is a "rape victim".

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Well if she was capable of consenting and she consented than it can't be rape no matter how she feels afterwards.

That is simply untrue as a general statement. Consent can be coerced or tricked.

Trickery--you're right. However, rape by trickery is very uncommon.

Coercion--this one falls into a gray area. Very often what is defined as coercion is not--he's free to withdraw any non-mandated support if he wants to. "If you don't sleep with me I'm going to leave" is not illegal. Only if he is threatening to inflict harm, not merely withdraw aid, does it become a wrongful act.

 

[Toni]

And neither do the college administators and therefore he should not have been expelled.

I am quite confident that the board which oversaw this case as well as the college administration knows a good deal more about the particulars of the case than either of us do.

Why wouldn't Walker talk about this in public? So many rape victims just looooooove to disclose all of the gory details to the general public. After all, it is a public service to provide free masturbation material.

I don't think it's very likely at all that she is a "rape victim".

Of course you don't. Rape victims are as rare as unicorns these days.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

And neither do the college administators and therefore he should not have been expelled.

Why wouldn't Walker talk about this in public? So many rape victims just looooooove to disclose all of the gory details to the general public. After all, it is a public service to provide free masturbation material.

I don't think it's very likely at all that she is a "rape victim".

See, admits he doesn't know what happened and defaults to his position that she is lying. No middle ground for Derec.

 

[Toni]

Well if she was capable of consenting and she consented than it can't be rape no matter how she feels afterwards.

That is simply untrue as a general statement. Consent can be coerced or tricked.

Trickery--you're right. However, rape by trickery is very uncommon.

Coercion--this one falls into a gray area. Very often what is defined as coercion is not--he's free to withdraw any non-mandated support if he wants to. "If you don't sleep with me I'm going to leave" is not illegal. Only if he is threatening to inflict harm, not merely withdraw aid, does it become a wrongful act.

But you would agree that: "Sleep with me or I'm throwing the kid out the window" would be coercion, right? And probably: "Perform this sex act or I'm tossing you out of here even though it's 2 a.m. and -20 outside. I'm keeping the clothes you're wearing because I let you live here and you haven't paid me rent." Or: " Fine, if you don't want to have sex with me, I'll just use your little sister (or little brother). Who cares if they are 11?" Or "I'll beat your mom again."

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And neither do the college administators and therefore he should not have been expelled.

Why wouldn't Walker talk about this in public? So many rape victims just looooooove to disclose all of the gory details to the general public. After all, it is a public service to provide free masturbation material.

I don't think it's very likely at all that she is a "rape victim".

See, admits he doesn't know what happened and defaults to his position that she is lying. No middle ground for Derec.

There does seem to be only one position.

 

[J842P]

I do have one suspicion. What maybe happening is, instead of feeling guilty the next day, the young woman might feel anger because she discovers she had sex with a man whom she would not have consented to have sex with, under other circumstances. When it comes down to it, the mournful cry, "But she let me do it," is just not a defense.

I've had sex with a girl who I never would have had sex with sober, and I was very drunk. She was essentially sober, although, she might have had a drink or two. I suppose if I wanted to feel angry about that I would be entitled to that feeling. However, I don't think I should be allowed to denounce her as a rapist.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I do have one suspicion. What maybe happening is, instead of feeling guilty the next day, the young woman might feel anger because she discovers she had sex with a man whom she would not have consented to have sex with, under other circumstances. When it comes down to it, the mournful cry, "But she let me do it," is just not a defense.

I've had sex with a girl who I never would have had sex with sober, and I was very drunk. She was essentially sober, although, she might have had a drink or two. I suppose if I wanted to feel angry about that I would be entitled to that feeling. However, I don't think I should be allowed to denounce her as a rapist.

You're wrong. You're a victim and your attempt to mask your pain with disinterest isn't fooling anybody.

 

[Bronzeage]

I do have one suspicion. What maybe happening is, instead of feeling guilty the next day, the young woman might feel anger because she discovers she had sex with a man whom she would not have consented to have sex with, under other circumstances. When it comes down to it, the mournful cry, "But she let me do it," is just not a defense.

I've had sex with a girl who I never would have had sex with sober, and I was very drunk. She was essentially sober, although, she might have had a drink or two. I suppose if I wanted to feel angry about that I would be entitled to that feeling. However, I don't think I should be allowed to denounce her as a rapist.

That is your call. If no one took pics and you didn't wake up with a shoe polish beard and mustache, then no harm done. It's not really fair to expect everyone in the world to be so amiable about being violated.

 

[Derec]

See, admits he doesn't know what happened and defaults to his position that she is lying.

I don't know for sure what happened but I can still make judgments about likelihoods based on evidence. Evidence such as her sending him a message saying she had a great time the next day.

No middle ground for Derec.

Kind of like Toni et al always default to "she is a victim and he should be expelled". No middle ground for her either. Except I am not calling for her to be expelled unless there is actual evidence she was lying.

 

[Derec]

But you would agree that: "Sleep with me or I'm throwing the kid out the window" would be coercion, right? And probably: "Perform this sex act or I'm tossing you out of here even though it's 2 a.m. and -20 outside. I'm keeping the clothes you're wearing because I let you live here and you haven't paid me rent." Or: " Fine, if you don't want to have sex with me, I'll just use your little sister (or little brother). Who cares if they are 11?" Or "I'll beat your mom again."

My example was "If you don't sleep with me I will break up with you" as a non-coercive condition that might persuade a woman to have sex with a guy. He doesn't owe her continued relationship and can impose conditions, especially since sex is a common feature of relationships anyway. Yet that is exactly one of the things the infamous Ms. Magazine counted as "coercion" to get to their infamous "1 in 4" lie.

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There does seem to be only one position.

To you at least the only position is that the man must be presumed guilty until proven innocent (and sometimes not even then, see continued apologetics for Crystal Magnum for example)

 

[Derec]

I am quite confident that the board which oversaw this case as well as the college administration knows a good deal more about the particulars of the case than either of us do.

I am not confident at all that the college that had employed a dean who said that men can benefit from false rape accusations would handle a case of alleged rape fairly at all. Also, there is no evidence that there is any secret evidence nobody is privy to but is miraculously very damning for the accused. In any case, your double-secret evidence is pure speculation - given the evidence we have (very late claim, messages of "I had a great time", sufficient motor control to put on a condom disproves the "too drunk to consent" claim) it being rape is very unlikely.

Of course you don't. Rape victims are as rare as unicorns these days.

Given the evidence we have (and not some speculation of secret evidence we don't have) it is much more likely she is lying than that she was raped.

 

[Derec]

A consent form is not a bad idea. It's been suggested many times. I remember reading about it in Playboy, back in the 70's. A better idea than the consent form would be to actually know the person whom you intend to stick your penis inside. I realize this is strange idea, but it has merits. If she has to be drunk to want you, something is wrong and when something is wrong, bad things happen.

Often both are wrong. I see "consent forms" pop up in two context. One is in earnest by radical feminists and the other is as satire of radical feminism like that video I posted. I suspect what you saw in Playboy in the 70s was the latter.

This is the year 2014, not 1974. Is there some resurgence of chastity or purity movements on campus and I am so out of touch, I haven't heard about it? Is there some sort of Slut Police Force in charge of shaming women who have intercourse outside the bounds of matrimony?
Why else would a young woman feel guilty about having sex with someone? Someone please explain to this poor old man how this works. The last time I saw this kind of nonsense, I was in 8th grade.

I suspect there are many reasons. But the only relevant question is: did she genuinely consent at the time? If she did, she has no business retroactively withdrawing it.

I do have one suspicion. What maybe happening is, instead of feeling guilty the next day, the young woman might feel anger because she discovers she had sex with a man whom she would not have consented to have sex with, under other circumstances. When it comes down to it, the mournful cry, "But she let me do it," is just not a defense.

Of course it's a defense. Alcohol lowers inhibitions - for both genders. That does not render consent given under the influence of alcohol invalid. Now, there is a level of intoxication where that is true but it's pretty high. You yourself mentioned her having to be able to understand the question being asked which seems fair. However, many on here want a much much lower threshold than that.

 

[Derec]

Words have distinct meanings, and you don't get to redefine them in order to make a rhetorical point,
so I am hardly picking nits. Especially since your response tacitly condones tricking someone into giving consent, or to engage in emotional coercion to gain "consent".

Define "tricking" and "emotional coercion" with examples. Just so there is no confusion of the meaning of words.

 

[Derec]

You don't care about "her side". All you care about is indisputable electronic surveillance of the rape. Otherwise, she, by your default, is a lying bitch.

Wrong. I do not demand she be punished if it can't be proven that she was not raped. Both parties should enjoy presumption of innocence which means that there is middle ground where it cant' be reasonably proven either that rape occurred or that she lied about it.
By the way, Obama's ridiculous "preponderance of evidence" standard largely eliminates that fail safe because if it is not more likely that rape occurred than (unless it's exactly 50-50) it's more likely she lied.

 

[laughing dog]

Words have distinct meanings, and you don't get to redefine them in order to make a rhetorical point,
so I am hardly picking nits. Especially since your response tacitly condones tricking someone into giving consent, or to engage in emotional coercion to gain "consent".

Define "tricking" and "emotional coercion" with examples. Just so there is no confusion of the meaning of words.

An example of tricking is pretending to be someone else. An example of emotional coercion would be "sleep with me or I will kill myself".