A more honest article on the college rape mess

[laughing dog]

I'll ask you the same question I've posed to others. How could a young college man protect himself from accusations of rape, when in the light of day, it is revealed he was impaired and had sex with a woman who was unable to give full consent?

If she's drunk enough to go home with him I don't see how she's too drunk to consent.

Then you really haven't seen very drunk people.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The surest way to protect oneself from false accusations of rape is to refrain from sexual activity entirely. To be even more sure, one should avoid as much social contact as possible.

Yeah, it's a situation where there is no defense.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

That's one way, but I made it through adolescence and young manhood, with plenty of sex and was never accused of rape. Do I have some kind of secret, or was I just lucky?

If you're into the bar scene it's simply a matter of luck.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Being accused of rape, falsely or otherwise, is a relatively uncommon occurrence, a few high profile cases notwithstanding. I suppose in a sense you were "just lucky," but only in a trivial sense.

This is one of those cases where one makes their luck. False rape accusations are very rare and the people who worry most about it, generally follow your advice on how to avoid it. Why they continue to sound the alarm is a mystery, but I don't think it's because they just love people.

This is one of the thorniest problems with the issue. It is a real problem wherever there are a lot of young people living in close quarters and it needs to be addressed, but the actions of a small faction of misogynists make it difficult.

It's not just misogynists, it's those of us who don't like to see miscarriages of justice. This crap with the schools is just another aspect of the recent trend to bypass the constitution. The pesky bit of innocent until proven guilty is in the way of the feminist crusade.

- - - Updated - - -

Except many of these "rape" complaints appear to be two drunk college kids, one of which regrets it later.

Thus don't say nobody is talking about such cases.

Plenty are conflating a guy who's had a few drinks and then targets some girl who is falling down drunk or who ensures the girl gets falling down drunk with a couple of drunk college kids who wake up with a big 'oops.' Plenty insist that the first situation is really the second situation, because we all know that women don't know what they want or can't admit it.

But you're insisting the second is first.

 

[Bronzeage]

This is one of those cases where one makes their luck. False rape accusations are very rare and the people who worry most about it, generally follow your advice on how to avoid it. Why they continue to sound the alarm is a mystery, but I don't think it's because they just love people.

This is one of the thorniest problems with the issue. It is a real problem wherever there are a lot of young people living in close quarters and it needs to be addressed, but the actions of a small faction of misogynists make it difficult.

It's not just misogynists, it's those of us who don't like to see miscarriages of justice. This crap with the schools is just another aspect of the recent trend to bypass the constitution. The pesky bit of innocent until proven guilty is in the way of the feminist crusade.

I know a misogynist when I hear one speak. I have yet to meet any bigot who didn't think their feelings were perfectly justified.

 

[laughing dog]

It's not just misogynists, it's those of us who don't like to see miscarriages of justice. This crap with the schools is just another aspect of the recent trend to bypass the constitution.

Since these are not criminal proceedings, but private disciplinary hearings, please explain how this violates the US Constitution.

The pesky bit of innocent until proven guilty is in the way of the feminist crusade.

Once again, you are misinformed: there is no constitutional guarantee of the presumption of innocence in private hearings.

[

 

[ksen]

No one is talking about two college kids who get a bit too drunk and wind up in bed, one or both full of regrets the next morning. I've never seen that charged, ever. And only in news accounts in distant places have I seen any case of a drunk rape victim's attackers convicted.

Except many of these "rape" complaints appear to be two drunk college kids, one of which regrets it later.

Thus don't say nobody is talking about such cases.

I'll ask you the same question I've posed to others. How could a young college man protect himself from accusations of rape, when in the light of day, it is revealed he was impaired and had sex with a woman who was unable to give full consent?

The surest way to protect oneself from false accusations of rape is to refrain from sexual activity entirely. To be even more sure, one should avoid as much social contact as possible.

Maybe the "abstinence only" curriculum should be brought over to colleges and universities?

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

 

[Rhea]

What I'm hearing is that it is much MUCH more bad for 1 man to suffer unwanted accusation (crime against him)
than for 500 women to suffer unwanted sexual attack (crime against her).

Much much more bad. terrible. Help, I'm being oppressed. We should really go right after that 1 thing against a man and immediately drop all efforts against the 500 crimes against women because - what if there's one man adversely affected?


The false accusations against men seem to be a terrible side effect of the assaults against women. Like the starving poor stealing bread, kinda. Better put the bread stealers into jail. That'll fix the problem. Right? No. Fix the poverty and then no one tends to steal bread. Fix the massive rape problem and the occasional false accusations will disappear. Along with the massive rape problem disappearing. (Oh! That part wasn't really important to make go away?)

 

[ksen]

rhea makes a good point. it feels like this falls under #NotAllMen in that instead of talking about the actual rape problem women are facing we've moved on to the much more important occassional false rape allegations against a few guys.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

 

[Bronzeage]

No one is talking about two college kids who get a bit too drunk and wind up in bed, one or both full of regrets the next morning. I've never seen that charged, ever. And only in news accounts in distant places have I seen any case of a drunk rape victim's attackers convicted.

Except many of these "rape" complaints appear to be two drunk college kids, one of which regrets it later.

Thus don't say nobody is talking about such cases.

I'll ask you the same question I've posed to others. How could a young college man protect himself from accusations of rape, when in the light of day, it is revealed he was impaired and had sex with a woman who was unable to give full consent?

The surest way to protect oneself from false accusations of rape is to refrain from sexual activity entirely. To be even more sure, one should avoid as much social contact as possible.

Maybe the "abstinence only" curriculum should be brought over to colleges and universities?

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

I'm sure that was just a bit of cynical hyperbole.

 

[ksen]

No one is talking about two college kids who get a bit too drunk and wind up in bed, one or both full of regrets the next morning. I've never seen that charged, ever. And only in news accounts in distant places have I seen any case of a drunk rape victim's attackers convicted.

Except many of these "rape" complaints appear to be two drunk college kids, one of which regrets it later.

Thus don't say nobody is talking about such cases.

I'll ask you the same question I've posed to others. How could a young college man protect himself from accusations of rape, when in the light of day, it is revealed he was impaired and had sex with a woman who was unable to give full consent?

The surest way to protect oneself from false accusations of rape is to refrain from sexual activity entirely. To be even more sure, one should avoid as much social contact as possible.

Maybe the "abstinence only" curriculum should be brought over to colleges and universities?

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

I'm sure that was just a bit of cynical hyperbole.

It was.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Since these are not criminal proceedings, but private disciplinary hearings, please explain how this violates the US Constitution.

The pesky bit of innocent until proven guilty is in the way of the feminist crusade.

Once again, you are misinformed: there is no constitutional guarantee of the presumption of innocence in private hearings.

[

They are private disciplinary hearings that are taking the role of a criminal court. It's an attempt to do an end-run around innocent until proven guilty.

I do agree there is no guarantee of a fair trial but you're wrong to call this private--it's being done due to pressure from Washington.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What I'm hearing is that it is much MUCH more bad for 1 man to suffer unwanted accusation (crime against him)
than for 500 women to suffer unwanted sexual attack (crime against her).

Much much more bad. terrible. Help, I'm being oppressed. We should really go right after that 1 thing against a man and immediately drop all efforts against the 500 crimes against women because - what if there's one man adversely affected?


The false accusations against men seem to be a terrible side effect of the assaults against women. Like the starving poor stealing bread, kinda. Better put the bread stealers into jail. That'll fix the problem. Right? No. Fix the poverty and then no one tends to steal bread. Fix the massive rape problem and the occasional false accusations will disappear. Along with the massive rape problem disappearing. (Oh! That part wasn't really important to make go away?)

We are talking a world where accusation is an almost automatic conviction.

And it's a basic principle of our legal system that it's better for 99 guilty men to go free than one innocent be convicted.

And the massive rape problem is based on bad data. They can't get the convictions because the crimes aren't actually happening so they make an accusation into a conviction.

 

[laughing dog]

Since these are not criminal proceedings, but private disciplinary hearings, please explain how this violates the US Constitution.
Once again, you are misinformed: there is no constitutional guarantee of the presumption of innocence in private hearings.

[

They are private disciplinary hearings that are taking the role of a criminal court. It's an attempt to do an end-run around innocent until proven guilty.

That is absurd. The students are disciplined, not sent to prison.

I do agree there is no guarantee of a fair trial but you're wrong to call this private--it's being done due to pressure from Washington.

That is absurd. The federal gov't is not forcing anyone to sexually assault students. Are you seriously arguing that private institutions do not have the right to enforce student codes of conduct that students have agreed to abide by?

 

[Arctish]

The pesky bit of innocent until proven guilty is in the way of the feminist crusade.

What feminist crusade would that be? I've read some bullshit on A Voice For Men about feminists wanting to do away with the presumption of innocence, but every time I check their sources it turns out they have quote-mined a few sentences here and there to present a twisted view of reality.

Do you have a source that doesn't rely on deception to make his case? If not, then this is just unsourced slander against the actual feminist position of equality and respecting the rights of all.

What I'm hearing is that it is much MUCH more bad for 1 man to suffer unwanted accusation (crime against him)
than for 500 women to suffer unwanted sexual attack (crime against her).

Much much more bad. terrible. Help, I'm being oppressed. We should really go right after that 1 thing against a man and immediately drop all efforts against the 500 crimes against women because - what if there's one man adversely affected?


The false accusations against men seem to be a terrible side effect of the assaults against women. Like the starving poor stealing bread, kinda. Better put the bread stealers into jail. That'll fix the problem. Right? No. Fix the poverty and then no one tends to steal bread. Fix the massive rape problem and the occasional false accusations will disappear. Along with the massive rape problem disappearing. (Oh! That part wasn't really important to make go away?)

We are talking a world where accusation is an almost automatic conviction.

Then we're not talking about this world.

And it's a basic principle of our legal system that it's better for 99 guilty men to go free than one innocent be convicted.

And the massive rape problem is based on bad data. They can't get the convictions because the crimes aren't actually happening so they make an accusation into a conviction.

Handwaving away the massive rape problem by blaming it on women falsely accusing men noted. Poor Charlie.

Anyway, you're still conflating the powers of a private institution like a college with the powers of the state. It makes for some dramatic posting, but it's a fundamentally flawed way to view disciplinary actions like expulsions.

Is plagiarism a crime? It can get you expelled from college.

Is refusing to bathe a crime? That, too, can get you expelled from college.

Is a non-consensual sex act a crime? It is where I come from. Even the acts that don't involve touching can get you expelled from college, or fired from your job, or evicted from your hotel room, or some other form of involuntary separation. That has almost nothing to do with criminal law (which, hopefully, will be handled by the police and District Attorney) and everything to do with the fact private institutions and businesses can enforce codes of conduct on their premesis.

If you don't want to abide by the rules, don't go to places that have rules. Or, if you decide to go anyway, don't complain when you get kicked out of Applebee's.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

They are private disciplinary hearings that are taking the role of a criminal court. It's an attempt to do an end-run around innocent until proven guilty.

That is absurd. The students are disciplined, not sent to prison.

They're having their life seriously messed up.

I do agree there is no guarantee of a fair trial but you're wrong to call this private--it's being done due to pressure from Washington.

That is absurd. The federal gov't is not forcing anyone to sexually assault students. Are you seriously arguing that private institutions do not have the right to enforce student codes of conduct that students have agreed to abide by?

The federal government is forcing them to convict when there's little evidence of guilt.

And when you're going to inflict a penalty as severe as they are there should be some accountability.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What feminist crusade would that be? I've read some bullshit on A Voice For Men about feminists wanting to do away with the presumption of innocence, but every time I check their sources it turns out they have quote-mined a few sentences here and there to present a twisted view of reality.

Do you have a source that doesn't rely on deception to make his case? If not, then this is just unsourced slander against the actual feminist position of equality and respecting the rights of all.

We're looking at a case of removing the presumption of innocence right here.

We are talking a world where accusation is an almost automatic conviction.

Then we're not talking about this world.

Look at the complaints about the process--the guys aren't being allowed to defend themselves. No defense = near automatic conviction.

And it's a basic principle of our legal system that it's better for 99 guilty men to go free than one innocent be convicted.

And the massive rape problem is based on bad data. They can't get the convictions because the crimes aren't actually happening so they make an accusation into a conviction.

Handwaving away the massive rape problem by blaming it on women falsely accusing men noted. Poor Charlie.

I'm not handwaving anything, I'm saying the number of rapes simply don't add up. And when you look at the survey questions you see they are too broad.

Is plagiarism a crime? It can get you expelled from college.

Is refusing to bathe a crime? That, too, can get you expelled from college.

Reasonable evidence is required in these cases.

 

[Bronzeage]

...


Look at the complaints about the process--the guys aren't being allowed to defend themselves. No defense = near automatic conviction.

...

A great defense would be "It wasn't me, you got the wrong guy, I wasn't there." That's the defense a man needs to present when he is accused of having sex with an unwilling partner.

The "I thought she wanted it as bad as me," defense is a hard sell. It's sort of like talking to your bank manager about a loan, while holding pistol. You get the money and while the bank manager might not be sure of exactly what happened, there's no reason to believe he'll be happy about it.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

You liken casual sex with bank robbery?

 

[Arctish]

You liken casual sex with bank robbery?

He was likening non-consensual sex aka rape to bank robbery.

Casual doesn't mean consent-optional. Or maybe I'm just showing my age. Is that how it is these days? Does a woman get to mount a sleeping man and start humping him without his consent and wave it off with a claim it was merely "casual'" sex? Does a man get to penetrate a woman without her consent and avoid any negative consequences by claiming he thought she would like it?