A more honest article on the college rape mess

[Rhea]

You liken casual sex with bank robbery?

Casual sex when consent is of the "I thought she wanted it, but I never actually got a yes to know for certain," variety? Yah.

 

[Arctish]

We're looking at a case of removing the presumption of innocence right here.

We are talking a world where accusation is an almost automatic conviction.

Then we're not talking about this world.

Look at the complaints about the process--the guys aren't being allowed to defend themselves. No defense = near automatic conviction.

And it's a basic principle of our legal system that it's better for 99 guilty men to go free than one innocent be convicted.

And the massive rape problem is based on bad data. They can't get the convictions because the crimes aren't actually happening so they make an accusation into a conviction.

Handwaving away the massive rape problem by blaming it on women falsely accusing men noted. Poor Charlie.

I'm not handwaving anything, I'm saying the number of rapes simply don't add up. And when you look at the survey questions you see they are too broad.

Is plagiarism a crime? It can get you expelled from college.

Is refusing to bathe a crime? That, too, can get you expelled from college.

Reasonable evidence is required in these cases.

You're still conflating the powers of a private institution or business to enforce a code of conduct on its premises with the powers of the state to prosecute criminal offenses. And you still haven't shown evidence of a feminist crusade to remove the presumption of innocence, much less how this alleged crusade is affecting the decisions of businesses and private institutions to terminate their association with individuals who violate those codes.

I'm saying the number of rapes simply don't add up

What is your source? Are you using Justice Department or FBI data, are you looking at the numbers state-by-state, or are you simply saying you don't believe the numbers of sexual assaults in this country are as high as research indicates?

 

[Bronzeage]

You liken casual sex with bank robbery?

Okay, it's a simile, in which a person accused of coercing a bank manager to loan him money by holding a pistol while they talk, later says, "Hey, the gun was no big deal. I was just holding it in my hand. If it bothered him, he should have said something."

The comparison of the simile is between this defense and the defense of the person who is accused of rape. If he can say, "I wasn't there, it wasn't me," he is way ahead of the man who says, "Yeah, we were both drunk. If she didn't want to have sex, she should have said something." He has just admitted to sexual contact and impaired judgement.

It looks grim for him, because the essential element of this case is her actual state of mind and ability to consent. He is the only witness to this, but we can't trust his memory, because he has admitted to being drunk, but not so drunk, he couldn't tell she was also drunk.

Does that help?

 

[Metaphor]

...


Look at the complaints about the process--the guys aren't being allowed to defend themselves. No defense = near automatic conviction.

...

A great defense would be "It wasn't me, you got the wrong guy, I wasn't there." That's the defense a man needs to present when he is accused of having sex with an unwilling partner.

The "I thought she wanted it as bad as me," defense is a hard sell. It's sort of like talking to your bank manager about a loan, while holding pistol. You get the money and while the bank manager might not be sure of exactly what happened, there's no reason to believe he'll be happy about it.

This doesn't make sense. Are you saying the only way for a man to be innocent of any rape charge is that he did not in fact have sex with the accuser?

You're suggesting that if the fact that both parties admit to the sex having happened means that the falsely accused has no defence, or that he can't in fact be falsely accused?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

A great defense would be "It wasn't me, you got the wrong guy, I wasn't there." That's the defense a man needs to present when he is accused of having sex with an unwilling partner.

The "I thought she wanted it as bad as me," defense is a hard sell. It's sort of like talking to your bank manager about a loan, while holding pistol. You get the money and while the bank manager might not be sure of exactly what happened, there's no reason to believe he'll be happy about it.

This doesn't make sense. Are you saying the only way for a man to be innocent of any rape charge is that he did not in fact have sex with the accuser?

You're suggesting that if the fact that both parties admit to the sex having happened means that the falsely accused has no defence, or that he can't in fact be falsely accused?

Also, it would be basing his defence on an easily disputed lie. If there's any security cameras in her building or that they passed by on the streets which showed them together, that completely undercuts his defence and makes him look guilty because he's lying about what happened.

Instead, just bring the restaurant bill and show the judge that she got the lobster. Case dismissed.

 

[RavenSky]

Also, it would be basing his defence on an easily disputed lie. If there's any security cameras in her building or that they passed by on the streets which showed them together, that completely undercuts his defence and makes him look guilty because he's lying about what happened.

Instead, just bring the restaurant bill and show the judge that she got the lobster. Case dismissed.

. I know that you are joking around here, but your post does illustrate the genuine difficulty with these types of rape cases. The fact that she had a lobster dinner with him, or was seen walking down the street with him, or even that they were in her building together - none of that is evidence of consent to sex.

Now before Derec flies in waving his virtual hands in outrage, I am NOT suggesting that it is evidence of rape either - but no one ever said it was.

People do, however, use stuff exactly like the examples you mention as evidence that she is a lying liar who lied about being raped. This is one of the problems, in my opinion.

 

[Bronzeage]

A great defense would be "It wasn't me, you got the wrong guy, I wasn't there." That's the defense a man needs to present when he is accused of having sex with an unwilling partner.

The "I thought she wanted it as bad as me," defense is a hard sell. It's sort of like talking to your bank manager about a loan, while holding pistol. You get the money and while the bank manager might not be sure of exactly what happened, there's no reason to believe he'll be happy about it.

This doesn't make sense. Are you saying the only way for a man to be innocent of any rape charge is that he did not in fact have sex with the accuser?

You're suggesting that if the fact that both parties admit to the sex having happened means that the falsely accused has no defence, or that he can't in fact be falsely accused?

We are not talking about "any rape charge". We are speaking of encounters where a man is drunk and does not realize his partner is unable to express herself and is in fact, unwilling. I said it was the best way, not the only way. Unfortunately, when a man admits he had sex with a woman when they were both too drunk to understand the ramifications of what he was doing, that is a confession.

In any accusation, the man who can say, "I didn't do it," is in a much better position that the man who is left with, "I can explain." Again, we come back to men acting in a smarter way, which doesn't really seem to be a viable option in this discussion.

On the other hand, we could just tell women to be more careful with their vagina.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

We are not talking about "any rape charge". We are speaking of encounters where a man is drunk and does not realize his partner is unable to express herself and is in fact, unwilling. I said it was the best way, not the only way. Unfortunately, when a man admits he had sex with a woman when they were both too drunk to understand the ramifications of what he was doing, that is a confession.

In any accusation, the man who can say, "I didn't do it," is in a much better position that the man who is left with, "I can explain." Again, we come back to men acting in a smarter way, which doesn't really seem to be a viable option in this discussion.

But that logic does apply to any rape charge. You will be in a better position to deny raping somebody if you never actually had sex with them. Even then, you can still be accused, but you'll be in a better position.

Then again, as you also said, we could just expect women not to bring false rape charges, and not 100% believe they were raped by men just because they claim it.

 

[fromderinside]

It looks grim for him, because the essential element of this case is her actual state of mind and ability to consent. He is the only witness to this, but we can't trust his memory, because he has admitted to being drunk, but not so drunk, he couldn't tell she was also drunk.

Does that help?

Well it does suggest the playing field is being leveled a bit. Now most anything a gee does can criminalized by attorneys.

 

[Bronzeage]

We are not talking about "any rape charge". We are speaking of encounters where a man is drunk and does not realize his partner is unable to express herself and is in fact, unwilling. I said it was the best way, not the only way. Unfortunately, when a man admits he had sex with a woman when they were both too drunk to understand the ramifications of what he was doing, that is a confession.

In any accusation, the man who can say, "I didn't do it," is in a much better position that the man who is left with, "I can explain." Again, we come back to men acting in a smarter way, which doesn't really seem to be a viable option in this discussion.

But that logic does apply to any rape charge. You will be in a better position to deny raping somebody if you never actually had sex with them. Even then, you can still be accused, but you'll be in a better position.

Then again, as you also said, we could just expect women not to bring false rape charges, and not 100% believe they were raped by men just because they claim it.

I can't help but bring personal experience into the discussion and ask two questions. First, how often is a man accused of rape when he is blameless, and second, why would a woman claim she was raped, when in fact, she was not?

In my experience, the false rape claim is very rare, although a lot of men will admit to sex with the woman, but dispute the rape charge. Of course, any woman knows the ordeal which awaits her, if she makes a formal charge. It's not a trivial thing for her or him. Are we to believe there are enough vicious and vindictive women walking the halls of our colleges(and other places) who will make a false charge because they want to ruin some man who found her attractive, for this to be a real hazard.

The answer is no. There are not enough women such as I described, to make sex with a college girl a hazard to man's life and ambitions.

Here is the plain hard truth. This is a problem caused by men, not women. This is very difficult for some men to handle, because they fear the power of a woman's sexuality, and the power of women in general. This is reality. Some people can handle it, and some cannot.

 

[Togo]

Where I used to live we had this guy who used to follow people into their houses when they got home, grab coats or whatever from the hallway, and stagger off.

When he was caught, which was often, he used to claim that he had thought the inhabitents had wanted him to have the coats. People do give warm clothing to the homeless. He had no way, he said, of knowing they weren't a gift. He was drunk, and thus confused.

Hands up anyone who thinks that he wasn't guilty of theft. Anyone?

 

[Bronzeage]

Where I used to live we had this guy who used to follow people into their houses when they got home, grab coats or whatever from the hallway, and stagger off.

When he was caught, which was often, he used to claim that he had thought the inhabitents had wanted him to have the coats. People do give warm clothing to the homeless. He had no way, he said, of knowing they weren't a gift. He was drunk, and thus confused.

Hands up anyone who thinks that he wasn't guilty of theft. Anyone?

False burglary accusations are a constant problem for homeless alcoholics.

 

[Barbarian]

Where I used to live we had this guy who used to follow people into their houses when they got home, grab coats or whatever from the hallway, and stagger off.

When he was caught, which was often, he used to claim that he had thought the inhabitents had wanted him to have the coats. People do give warm clothing to the homeless. He had no way, he said, of knowing they weren't a gift. He was drunk, and thus confused.

Hands up anyone who thinks that he wasn't guilty of theft. Anyone?

What should those people do, or raise, who merely aren't sure he was guilty of theft, on account of possible insanity?

 

[Bronzeage]

Where I used to live we had this guy who used to follow people into their houses when they got home, grab coats or whatever from the hallway, and stagger off.

When he was caught, which was often, he used to claim that he had thought the inhabitents had wanted him to have the coats. People do give warm clothing to the homeless. He had no way, he said, of knowing they weren't a gift. He was drunk, and thus confused.

Hands up anyone who thinks that he wasn't guilty of theft. Anyone?

What should those people do, or raise, who merely aren't sure he was guilty of theft, on account of possible insanity?

His insanity, or lack of it is a factor in his punishment, or treatment, as the case maybe. It is not a factor in deciding if he stole the coat, or it was a gift.

 

[Barbarian]

What should those people do, or raise, who merely aren't sure he was guilty of theft, on account of possible insanity?

His insanity, or lack of it is a factor in his punishment, or treatment, as the case maybe. It is not a factor in deciding if he stole the coat, or it was a gift.

IANAL, but I don't think he stole it if he wasn't aware of what he was doing. If the wind took your coat off the hangers and blew it away, it would not have stolen it either. You need the intent to steal and the awareness that it is stealing and frowned upon, in order to steal, don't you? All the rest is just random motion, so to speak.

 

[Bronzeage]

His insanity, or lack of it is a factor in his punishment, or treatment, as the case maybe. It is not a factor in deciding if he stole the coat, or it was a gift.

IANAL, but I don't think he stole it if he wasn't aware of what he was doing. If the wind took your coat off the hangers and blew it away, it would not have stolen it either. You need the intent to steal and the awareness that it is stealing and frowned upon, in order to steal, don't you? All the rest is just random motion, so to speak.

A human being is not a gust of wind.

Whether or not a coat is stolen depends upon the facts of the case. The appropriate action to take also depends upon the facts of the case. If a person is deluded and has no idea he is stealing, it does not change the fact that he stole a coat. It does affect how we deal with him.

"Not guilty, by reason of insanity" actually means, "not held responsible for one's actions, by reason of insanity."

If a person is decapitated by an ax wielding maniac, is the person any less a murder victim, just because the killer was in a psychotic delusion?

 

[RavenSky]

I can't help but bring personal experience into the discussion and ask two questions. First, how often is a man accused of rape when he is blameless, and second, why would a woman claim she was raped, when in fact, she was not?

In my experience, the false rape claim is very rare, although a lot of men will admit to sex with the woman, but dispute the rape charge. Of course, any woman knows the ordeal which awaits her, if she makes a formal charge. It's not a trivial thing for her or him. Are we to believe there are enough vicious and vindictive women walking the halls of our colleges(and other places) who will make a false charge because they want to ruin some man who found her attractive, for this to be a real hazard.

The answer is no. There are not enough women such as I described, to make sex with a college girl a hazard to man's life and ambitions.

Here is the plain hard truth. This is a problem caused by men, not women. This is very difficult for some men to handle, because they fear the power of a woman's sexuality, and the power of women in general. This is reality. Some people can handle it, and some cannot.

 

[Bronzeage]

I can't help but bring personal experience into the discussion and ask two questions. First, how often is a man accused of rape when he is blameless, and second, why would a woman claim she was raped, when in fact, she was not?

In my experience, the false rape claim is very rare, although a lot of men will admit to sex with the woman, but dispute the rape charge. Of course, any woman knows the ordeal which awaits her, if she makes a formal charge. It's not a trivial thing for her or him. Are we to believe there are enough vicious and vindictive women walking the halls of our colleges(and other places) who will make a false charge because they want to ruin some man who found her attractive, for this to be a real hazard.

The answer is no. There are not enough women such as I described, to make sex with a college girl a hazard to man's life and ambitions.

Here is the plain hard truth. This is a problem caused by men, not women. This is very difficult for some men to handle, because they fear the power of a woman's sexuality, and the power of women in general. This is reality. Some people can handle it, and some cannot.

I am a river to my people.

 

[Toni]

I can't help but bring personal experience into the discussion and ask two questions. First, how often is a man accused of rape when he is blameless, and second, why would a woman claim she was raped, when in fact, she was not?

In my experience, the false rape claim is very rare, although a lot of men will admit to sex with the woman, but dispute the rape charge. Of course, any woman knows the ordeal which awaits her, if she makes a formal charge. It's not a trivial thing for her or him. Are we to believe there are enough vicious and vindictive women walking the halls of our colleges(and other places) who will make a false charge because they want to ruin some man who found her attractive, for this to be a real hazard.

The answer is no. There are not enough women such as I described, to make sex with a college girl a hazard to man's life and ambitions.

Here is the plain hard truth. This is a problem caused by men, not women. This is very difficult for some men to handle, because they fear the power of a woman's sexuality, and the power of women in general. This is reality. Some people can handle it, and some cannot.

Times ten million.

 

[Metaphor]

I can't help but bring personal experience into the discussion and ask two questions. First, how often is a man accused of rape when he is blameless, and second, why would a woman claim she was raped, when in fact, she was not?

You are seriously lacking in imagination if you cannot imagine or remember the reasons women have brought false rape charges. Perhaps the woman regretted sex after the fact. I believe Jarhyn said he had regretted a number of drunken sexual encounters but he did not consider them rape.

Perhaps the woman wanted an excuse for cheating. There was an Australian case where a woman did not come home all night and she told her boyfriend her taxi driver had raped her. She had made up the whole thing because she did not want him to know she had cheated on him (not with the taxi driver, as it turns out, of which there is time stamped video footage showing him nowhere near her).

Perhaps the woman was mistaken about whether she gave consent (e.g. she was tipsy enough to meaningfully consent but in the cold light of day she thinks she wasn't). Perhaps it's revenge. Who knows all the reasons someone could have, but there's no lack of them.

That's not to imply that most accusations are false, just that a fa