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A perfect example of why some of us say poverty is self-inflicted

Emily Lake said:
Once people know how to make good decisions, then we can work on improving the options available to them.

And if the options available to the poor are all bad? How do you make a good decision among bad choices?
 
Emily Lake said:
Once people know how to make good decisions, then we can work on improving the options available to them.

And if the options available to the poor are all bad? How do you make a good decision among bad choices?

You choose the least bad.

And smoking is not an example of a least-bad choice. Neither is fucking without contraception.
 
And if the options available to the poor are all bad? How do you make a good decision among bad choices?

You choose the least bad.

And smoking is not an example of a least-bad choice. Neither is fucking without contraception.

because fucking and smoking are the sum total of poor folks lives

Right Loren?

I would tell you get to a life and get a clue, but that would be pointless and the waste of both the life and the clue.
 
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And if the options available to the poor are all bad? How do you make a good decision among bad choices?

You choose the least bad.

And smoking is not an example of a least-bad choice. Neither is fucking without contraception.
When you paint with such an old and decrepit broad brush, the response just looks awful.
 
Funny how this was not quoted by Loren:



And here is what he did quote with the very next few sentences that he didn't:

It’s just that there aren’t many other options for a lot of people. In fact, the Urban Institute found that half of Americans will experience poverty at some point before they’re 65. Most will come out of it after a relatively short time, 75% in four years. But that still leaves 25% who don’t get out quickly, and the study also found that the longer you stay in poverty, the less likely it becomes that you will ever get out. Most people who live near the bottom go through cycles of being in poverty and just above it – sometimes they’re just OK and sometimes they’re underwater. It depends on the year, the job, how healthy you are.What I can say for sure is that downward mobility is like quicksand. Once it grabs you, it keeps constraining your options until it’s got you completely. I slid to the bottom through a mix of my own decisions and some seriously bad luck. I think that’s true of most people.

While it can seem like upward mobility is blocked by a lead ceiling, the layer between lower-middle class and poor is horrifyingly porous from above. A lot of us live in that spongy divide.

I got here in a pretty average way: I left home at 16 for college, promptly behaved as well as you’d expect a teenager to, and was estranged from my family for over a decade. I quit college when it became clear that I was taking out loans to no good effect; I wasn’t ready for it yet. I chased a career simply because it was the first opportunity available rather than because it was sensible. I also had medical bills. I had bouts of unemployment, I had a drunken driver total my car. I had everything I owned destroyed in a flood.

Rather changes the point of view, doesn't it?

So when financially comfortable people with health insurance and paid sick leave and all kinds of other benefits that pad their wallets and make their lives easier and healthier think that the poor are poor because somehow we lack the get up and go to change our circumstances… well, I’m not sure my reaction is printable.

Why does Lauren think this article supports his position?
It's funny. I knew before I read it that it wouldn't be "a perfect example" of why poverty is self-inflicted, probably not an example at all and quite possibly an example of the opposite.
 
I'm just amazed at how a common psychological/economic phenomenon becomes an excuse for blame.

The message of the OP is that poor people are poor because they are stupid and lazy, therefore we shouldn't do anything about poverty. When really, the message of this study is the opposite: Poverty produces apathy, hopelessness, and damaging behavior. The reasonable conclusion is that poverty is damaging to society, and a society where the basic needs of people is happier AND more productive.

But of course, the right would rather point fingers and blame.
 
You choose the least bad.

And smoking is not an example of a least-bad choice. Neither is fucking without contraception.

because fucking and smoking are the sum total of poor folks lives

Right Loren?

I would tell you get to a life and get a clue, but that would be pointless and the waste of both the life and the clue.

Those are two examples of big financial mistakes she's admitting to in that article.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm just amazed at how a common psychological/economic phenomenon becomes an excuse for blame.

The message of the OP is that poor people are poor because they are stupid and lazy, therefore we shouldn't do anything about poverty. When really, the message of this study is the opposite: Poverty produces apathy, hopelessness, and damaging behavior. The reasonable conclusion is that poverty is damaging to society, and a society where the basic needs of people is happier AND more productive.

But of course, the right would rather point fingers and blame.

I'm *NOT* saying that we shouldn't do anything.

I'm saying we should treat it as an education problem. Money doesn't help the poor, they need to learn to run their lives better.
 
because fucking and smoking are the sum total of poor folks lives

Right Loren?

I would tell you get to a life and get a clue, but that would be pointless and the waste of both the life and the clue.

Those are two examples of big financial mistakes she's admitting to in that article.

You keep missing the point that poverty CAUSES people to make more financial mistakes than they ordinarily would, leading to deeper poverty and more frequent mistakes. THAT'S the trap, and the article illustrates it quite effectively.
 
Those are two examples of big financial mistakes she's admitting to in that article.

You keep missing the point that poverty CAUSES people to make more financial mistakes than they ordinarily would, leading to deeper poverty and more frequent mistakes. THAT'S the trap, and the article illustrates it quite effectively.

That's her excuse. Why don't immigrants suffer the same problem? After all, they have the same initial conditions: a lack of money.
 
Emily Lake said:
Once people know how to make good decisions, then we can work on improving the options available to them.

And if the options available to the poor are all bad? How do you make a good decision among bad choices?

You can still make a good decision from among bad options. Not all bad choices are likely to lead to equally bad outcomes. Choosing the least bad of the options constitutes a good decision.

There is a very significant difference between decisions and outcomes. For any set of possible outcomes, there are probabilities for each outcome. Making a good decision consists of understanding both the spectrum of possible outcomes before you, and the relative likelihoods attached to them.
 
You keep missing the point that poverty CAUSES people to make more financial mistakes than they ordinarily would, leading to deeper poverty and more frequent mistakes. THAT'S the trap, and the article illustrates it quite effectively.

That's her excuse. Why don't immigrants suffer the same problem? After all, they have the same initial conditions: a lack of money.

Most immigrants are coming from country that offered them considerably fewer options than they have here - that's why they immigrated in the first place. They don't have a lot of money, but they have considerably more agency and control over their own lives. Relative to their starting point, they are faced with a significant amount of opportunity. It represents a step forward for them. Thus they experience emotional reactions of hope and happiness

For someone who was lower-middle class and hit some bad luck, they experience a reduction in their options, and a lessening of agency. Relative to their starting point, they are faced with much less opportunity. Thus they experience hopelessness and sadness.
 
You keep missing the point that poverty CAUSES people to make more financial mistakes than they ordinarily would, leading to deeper poverty and more frequent mistakes. THAT'S the trap, and the article illustrates it quite effectively.

That's her excuse. Why don't immigrants suffer the same problem? After all, they have the same initial conditions: a lack of money.
Some immigrants have a lack of resources, some do not. Some have an initial lack of resources but an education and advanced degrees. Some end up in poverty and some do not. Do you have any evidence that the poverty rate for immigrants with otherwise equal characteristics as domestic citizens are less likely to end up in a poverty trap?
 
lol, sure it doesn't.

And a house won't help a homeless person. And food won't help a hungry person.

Making someone a ward of the state doesn't produce any additional agency for that person.

So if you were a ward of the state, you would feel no need to better yourself? The only reason you work and do better is the constant threat of starvation and exposure if you don't? Work is not its own reward, not in any way fulfilling in and of itself?
 
Athena, the poors are only prodded to better themselves under threat of starvation and exposure.
 
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