A perfect example of why some of us say poverty is self-inflicted

[Emily Lake]

Making someone a ward of the state doesn't produce any additional agency for that person.

Agency is the least of your worries when you're sick, hungry, and homeless

No, it's not. But a long-term solution to sickness, hunger, and homelessness needs to include agency in its solution unless you intend to make everyone wards of the state.

And making everyone wards of the state is expensive. Expensive enough as to be unsustainable.

While meeting the immediate needs of a starving person is sufficient to fend of death, it is not sufficient to lift them out of danger of starvation in a long-term sustainable fashion. For that to occur, the individual in question needs to be engaged in that solution.

 

[Emily Lake]

Making someone a ward of the state doesn't produce any additional agency for that person.

So if you were a ward of the state, you would feel no need to better yourself? The only reason you work and do better is the constant threat of starvation and exposure if you don't? Work is not its own reward, not in any way fulfilling in and of itself?

Forgive me for giggling, but the majority of people, indeed of most life on the planet, work in order to stay alive. Some people also happen to find enjoyment in their work, and our society has tried to convince people that work for the sake of work is some noble undertaking in and of itself. But objectively, we work in order to not die. The same as any other animal on the planet. Our work is a bit more complicated however, and also serves other ends around demonstrating success as a representative of the species making us more desirable as a mate, as well as demonstrating status within our tribal sub-clusters.

As a human - an intelligent animal - we generally aim to produce more leisure and less work. We endeavor to make work less onerous, to be more efficient, to produce more of the thing that we want or need with less effort. Thus the wheel, agriculture, and most technological advances. They all allow us to get more done in the same or less time.

No, work is not its own reward, not for the overwhelming majority of human beings. If you are one of the few who would continue to work even if you were not being paid for your efforts... then I suppose you should count yourself lucky.

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Athena, the poors are only prodded to better themselves under threat of starvation and exposure.

It seems obvious that this does not represent your personal view. Who then are you caricaturing?

 

[ksen]

Agency is the least of your worries when you're sick, hungry, and homeless

No, it's not. But a long-term solution to sickness, hunger, and homelessness needs to include agency in its solution unless you intend to make everyone wards of the state.

And making everyone wards of the state is expensive. Expensive enough as to be unsustainable.

Well, since no one is talking about making people wards of the state forever I guess we can dispense with this particular objection.

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Athena, the poors are only prodded to better themselves under threat of starvation and exposure.

It seems obvious that this does not represent your personal view. Who then are you caricaturing?

You, max, bill, coloradoatheist, lumpen/freetrader, dismal, loren . . . have I missed anyone?

 

[Emily Lake]

Athena, the poors are only prodded to better themselves under threat of starvation and exposure.

It seems obvious that this does not represent your personal view. Who then are you caricaturing?

You, max, bill, coloradoatheist, lumpen/freetrader, dismal, loren . . . have I missed anyone?

Please explain how anything I've said justifies your characterization of my views in this fashion. Please explain how anything I've said lends itself to the interpretation you've given.

Otherwise, I would say this is a strawman, and a rather lurid and inept one at that.

 

[ksen]

nah

 

[Emily Lake]

nah

Essentially, then, you admit that simply disliked something I said, so you decided to caricature it in the worst way you could, without actually bothering to determine whether that represented anything close to the views I was expressing or that I actually hold. Very intelligent, objective, and honest of you.

 

[ksen]

nah

 

[AthenaAwakened]

So if you were a ward of the state, you would feel no need to better yourself? The only reason you work and do better is the constant threat of starvation and exposure if you don't? Work is not its own reward, not in any way fulfilling in and of itself?

Forgive me for giggling, but the majority of people, indeed of most life on the planet, work in order to stay alive.

And that is the only reason they work? And the only work they engage in is work to keep from starving? They don't do anything for their neighbors, family, friends? They create no art, no craft? They engage in no acts of culture of self expression? They lead short brutal and brutish lives of constantly seeking food and shelter and never have a thought or emotion above that?

Some people also happen to find enjoyment in their work, and our society has tried to convince people that work for the sake of work is some noble undertaking in and of itself. But objectively, we work in order to not die. The same as any other animal on the planet. Our work is a bit more complicated however, and also serves other ends around demonstrating success as a representative of the species making us more desirable as a mate, as well as demonstrating status within our tribal sub-clusters.

As a human - an intelligent animal - we generally aim to produce more leisure and less work. We endeavor to make work less onerous, to be more efficient, to produce more of the thing that we want or need with less effort. Thus the wheel, agriculture, and most technological advances. They all allow us to get more done in the same or less time.

No, work is not its own reward, not for the overwhelming majority of human beings. If you are one of the few who would continue to work even if you were not being paid for your efforts... then I suppose you should count yourself lucky.

Within the human animal is a drive to work, to create, to accomplish. Now the fact the many humans are forced to live in social circumstances of poverty and deprivation is the problem of those social structures not the humans force to live within them.

We are not blind geldings yoked to a grinding wheel, at least not by choice. We can do better for ourselves and each other and we need not accept a belief that people are less than what we are and leave them in horrid circumstance.

 

[Emily Lake]

Within the human animal is a drive to work, to create, to accomplish. Now the fact the many humans are forced to live in social circumstances of poverty and deprivation is the problem of those social structures not the humans force to live within them.

Within the human animal is a brain that allows us to see the benefit of doing less work in order to continue being alive. If we can get the same amount of food with less work, then we should do so. Better yet - if we can put in the same amount of work and get more food, then we'll have extra and we (and our loved ones) have less risk of starving through the long winter. And when we have more leisure time (because of our big brains) then we have time to engage in leisure activities like art and music. But we work in order to not die. As I said, we've become more complex, our society has become more complex, and what constitutes work has become more elastic.

We are not blind geldings yoked to a grinding wheel, at least not by choice. We can do better for ourselves and each other and we need not accept a belief that people are less than what we are and leave them in horrid circumstance.

I have neither said nor implied that anyone is "less" than they are nor that they be "left" in horrid circumstances. But believing that people in general work in order to better themselves, and to fulfill some deep-seated calling from their souls is naive. Acknowledging the reality of nature does not demean humans. No more so than acknowledging that the earth is not flat demeans map-makers. It merely shifts ones perspective.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Within the human animal is a brain that allows us to see the benefit of doing less work in order to continue being alive. If we can get the same amount of food with less work, then we should do so.

Apparently you are not from the Midwest. I find pleasure in work and pleasure in hard work. I need very little to stay alive, but find meaning through my work. I'm sorry if in your world this isn't the case.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Within the human animal is a brain that allows us to see the benefit of doing less work in order to continue being alive. If we can get the same amount of food with less work, then we should do so.

Apparently you are not from the Midwest. I find pleasure in work and pleasure in hard work. I need very little to stay alive, but find meaning through my work. I'm sorry if in your world this isn't the case.

I am not from the Midwest, but I share your experience and your sentiment.

I think most people do, even poor people.

Especially poor people

 

[Juma]

Within the human animal is a brain that allows us to see the benefit of doing less work in order to continue being alive. If we can get the same amount of food with less work, then we should do so.

Apparently you are not from the Midwest. I find pleasure in work and pleasure in hard work. I need very little to stay alive, but find meaning through my work. I'm sorry if in your world this isn't the case.

The difference between doing work and doing useful work is immense.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

That's her excuse. Why don't immigrants suffer the same problem? After all, they have the same initial conditions: a lack of money.

Most immigrants are coming from country that offered them considerably fewer options than they have here - that's why they immigrated in the first place. They don't have a lot of money, but they have considerably more agency and control over their own lives. Relative to their starting point, they are faced with a significant amount of opportunity. It represents a step forward for them. Thus they experience emotional reactions of hope and happiness

This is not a rebuttal, but rather support for my position--it's a matter of what's going on in their heads, not a matter of what society is doing.

For someone who was lower-middle class and hit some bad luck, they experience a reduction in their options, and a lessening of agency. Relative to their starting point, they are faced with much less opportunity. Thus they experience hopelessness and sadness.

When you fall off the horse get back on it!

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Evidence?

Why don't immigrants suffer the same problem? After all, they have the same initial conditions: a lack of money.

Who says they don't suffer the same problem? Where's your data?

Look how they fare. Despite a much greater handicap they fare better.

 

[ksen]

Who says they don't suffer the same problem? Where's your data?

Look how they fare. Despite a much greater handicap they fare better.

Who says they don't suffer the same problem? Where's your data?

:nada:

 

[Emily Lake]

Within the human animal is a brain that allows us to see the benefit of doing less work in order to continue being alive. If we can get the same amount of food with less work, then we should do so.

Apparently you are not from the Midwest. I find pleasure in work and pleasure in hard work. I need very little to stay alive, but find meaning through my work. I'm sorry if in your world this isn't the case.

I laud you on your clever quoting, in which you dismiss the remainder of my post in order to make yourself appear a bit holier than me.

That said, I very much enjoy my job; I am lucky in that fashion. I also, however, know that most people don't have that luxury. And despite how much I enjoy my job... If I could magically receive manna from heaven to ensure my sustenance, and if shelter and protection were provided to me with no effort on my part, then I would surely find other endeavors to fill my time. I might still do some things that some people would consider "work", but to me they would be leisure. I would pursue studies that interest me, I would dig out my watercolors and pastels, I would learn to carve wood, I would travel and see the world. All the things I haven't the time to do now, I would do - because my job would have no claim on my limited time. It would not be required for my continued existence.

Tell me, Nice Squirrel... as much as you find meaning through your work... if you could accomplish the same goals as you do now, but in half of the time as it currently takes you, what would you do?

 

[lpetrich]

Why don't immigrants suffer the same problem? After all, they have the same initial conditions: a lack of money.

Many Asian immigrants, for instance, may be poor, but they often help each other and find jobs for each other. That explains why they often seem to specialize. Like in the US at least, Korean grocers and South Asian taxi drivers. It also helps to not be stereotyped as lazy and irresponsible and criminal and dangerous.

Why Immigrants Are More Successful than You! is interesting.

Immigrants stick together

One thing that I never forgot is that when my parents immigrated here, other immigrants helped them out. From providing free temporary living accommodations to helping a fellow immigrant to find a job, immigrants help each other succeed.

Even after being in the US for over twenty years, my parents still have some stuff, such as furniture, that was given to them by other immigrants.

So despite often being frugal and workaholic and only in it for the money, they aren't necessarily rugged individualists, and that's been very helpful for them. Part of their success is giving each other handouts. Yes, handouts.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Many Asian immigrants, for instance, may be poor, but they often help each other and find jobs for each other. That explains why they often seem to specialize. Like in the US at least, Korean grocers and South Asian taxi drivers. It also helps to not be stereotyped as lazy and irresponsible and criminal and dangerous.

Why Immigrants Are More Successful than You! is interesting.

Immigrants stick together

One thing that I never forgot is that when my parents immigrated here, other immigrants helped them out. From providing free temporary living accommodations to helping a fellow immigrant to find a job, immigrants help each other succeed.

Even after being in the US for over twenty years, my parents still have some stuff, such as furniture, that was given to them by other immigrants.

So despite often being frugal and workaholic and only in it for the money, they aren't necessarily rugged individualists, and that's been very helpful for them. Part of their success is giving each other handouts. Yes, handouts.

In other words, it's not discrimination. Thank you for proving my point.

 

[laughing dog]

Look how they fare. Despite a much greater handicap they fare better.

A number of posters asked for your data. Apparently this is just another handwaving generalization without empirical support.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Many Asian immigrants, for instance, may be poor, but they often help each other and find jobs for each other. That explains why they often seem to specialize. Like in the US at least, Korean grocers and South Asian taxi drivers. It also helps to not be stereotyped as lazy and irresponsible and criminal and dangerous.

Why Immigrants Are More Successful than You! is interesting.

So despite often being frugal and workaholic and only in it for the money, they aren't necessarily rugged individualists, and that's been very helpful for them. Part of their success is giving each other handouts. Yes, handouts.

In other words, it's not discrimination. Thank you for proving my point.

Loren, what in the world are you talking about?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In other words, it's not discrimination. Thank you for proving my point.

Loren, what in the world are you talking about?

The point is that it's not something society is doing to them. They're not poor because they're black.