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A simple explanation of free will.

So, do you think that you can use this highly speculative hypothesis to describe quantum decision making and in relation to your version of free will?

How?

Can you explain?

This is not to say that micro-tubules do not play a role in brain structure and function, just not in a way that supports your position.

I have explained it many times, what's one more.

Free will would objectively appear to have some randomness. These QM processes in the brain would produce some objective randomness. Most importantly, this fits common definitions of free will, "the ability to make choices that are not controlled by fate or God" (from http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/free will ).

That doesn't actually explain a thing, nada, nothing, niente, nisht.......that is your starting point, your proposition, broad definition or contention.

Now you need to give a description of how your definition/proposition/contention actually works.

You could start by addressing the questions I asked: describe or define the nature of 'I' - attributes, features, abilities and so on of 'I', including how your 'I' relates to Quantum Mechanics, the brain and 'free' will.
 
It's 'plausible' as long as you never try and build a model of human behaviour. Otherwise it's probably better to stick with the existing science. There's a reason why scientists who study behaviour don't have much time for this hypothesis.

Your brush off runs into the problem that sense of agency persists whether one is predicting/deciding or explaining/rationalizing.

That's only a problem if you confuse sense of agency for agency. When you measure intentional behaviour, you're not measuring anyone's 'sense' of anything.

The fact that you can induce an artificial sense of agency doesn't imply that all agency is artificial, any more than the fact that you can induce optical illusions means that people can't really see.

Yes you are! What other QM properties are there to "explain" LFW?

Well the article on Quantum cognition refers to probabilistic superpositioning, which does match people's intuitions around certain kinds of decision making rather better than the alternatives.

Why? A QM evenet could not have been different: what have happened belongs to the past and cannot be different.

Actually, in quantum events, a past event that has not been measured can be different. Hence quantum entanglement.

Just in case your arguments from romanticism are not perfectly sound, would you be able to explain in scientific terms why free will is impossible?
\( \omega_n= \vec{desire}_n \, \, \times \, \, (pros_n - cons_n) \)

\( pros_n= \sum_{k=1}^{m} \, \, pro_k\)
with m being the number of pros. Same for cons.

Sort function for \(\omega_n\) selects greatest \(\omega_n\) to act towards.

Start at \(\omega_n\), compare to \(\omega_{n-1}\):

if \(\omega_n>\omega_{n-1}\), \(\omega_{n-1}=\omega_n\).

if \(\omega_{n-1}>\omega_{n-2}\), \(\omega_{n-2}=\omega_{n-1}\)....
....
if \(\omega_3>\omega_{2}\), \(\omega_{2}=\omega_3\).

if \(\omega_2>\omega_{1}\), \(\omega_{1}=\omega_2\).

At the end of the sort function, \(\omega_1\) has the greatest magnitude, so you will do whatever it is. It's a bit more complicated than that- there are lots of interplaying wills, and during the calculation, certain wills go up and down as focus plays on different variables (pros, cons, and desire), but basically the above set of equations could be a good simplified way of looking at will.

While I salute your grasp of Latex, the equation doesn't actually prove anything, except that if competing courses of action are defined as consisting of independent positive and negative numerical values multiplied by a scalar, then one course of action will generally end up higher than the other. Presumably the use of mathematical relationships was merely decoration? An attempt to make it look more sciency?

Of course we know that competing courses of action aren't independent values, that treating them as interval level data is unjustified, that decision making isn't just a comparison between two values, that isolating decisions from their context doesn't occur in practice, that the processing involved in decision making in is excess of the equation shown here, and that people in practice do not treat desire as a scalar, but as a pro or con in it's own right. Which leads one to wonder why you've isolated it as a scalar in the first line? Is it because otherwise, by your equation, people would do what they want to?

More generally the problem with this kind of equation is that it can be used to model almost any process. Because it can be used to model any process, the idea that it fits a particular process isn't terribly useful.

When you make a choice it is either random or calculated.

<Citation Needed>

The fact that you can use QD models to predict deterministic systems with multiple variables doesn't mean that the systems aren't deterministic.
Then you would agree with the corollary, no? That because you can use deterministic models to predict such systems, doesn't mean the systems are deterministic?

Of course decision making is deterministic. Logically, it has to be.

Presented with given a given set of options (not all available options are available to everyone), the decision that is made by the subject/brain is determined by the criteria, which is governed by memory/past experience, and the state of the processor (brain) at the time that the selection is made.

No.. you're not distinguishing between the process of decision making and the decision itself. A decision is made up of the state of the decision maker, by definition. That's not a determined process, that's just identity. That description doesn't logically make or imply anything about the process used to reach that decision. For example, you could have all the criteria arrived at by a coin flip, and it would still be the case that the decision was made by the brain, determined by the criteria and the state of the brain.

What you need, to make it logically necessary for decision making to be determined, is a prior assumption that the only alternative to determined decision making is random decision making, aka determinism. If you don't hold a priori that decisions must be determined or random, then the statement fails.

Free will would objectively appear to have some randomness. These QM processes in the brain would produce some objective randomness. Most importantly, this fits common definitions of free will, "the ability to make choices that are not controlled by fate or God" (from http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/free will ).

I think we may be missing some context here.

One of the things that's been going on in medical psychological science is a search for a paradigm - some unified concept that both fits the full run of facts and makes some kind of intuitive sense. In this search we've had proposed the engineering model, the psychochemical model, the classical and operant conditioning models, neural net models, and everything from the pandemonium model through to the holographic model. In general they work well enough to be useful in a particular area (engineering model for stress, neural net for learning, holographic for large scale brain lesions, and so on), and poorly enough in other areas that they aren't regarded as universal.

Much of the material around quantum cognition needs to be viewed in this light. The proposal is not that the brain is somehow based on particle physics, but merely that the results we see are best mapped onto a paradigm that is similar quantum mechanics rather than classical physics. Thus a decision is treated as a collapsing wave state, rather than the solution to a sum. You then look at all your existing results and see if they fit better or worse than your previous paradigm. For example, it can be useful to model the memory of serious brain lesion patients in the same manner as if it were a damaged hologram, rather than a computer circuit. It better represents the kinds of results you actually get. Brains aren't holograms, but then they aren't computers either. For the purposes of clinical memory recovery, 'hologram' is a better fit than 'computer'. Similarly, for emotional and physical stress, the engineering paradigm of a structure being stressed but not breaking better models the effects you get than if you treat the brain as a static system that is either working or broken.

The point is that these are attempts to find a paradigm that easily and consistently models the results we actually get. They're not proposals for a specific mechanism. One of the useful side-effects of playing around with these concepts is that it gives a better perspective on what it is that you're replacing.
 
Your brush off runs into the problem that sense of agency persists whether one is predicting/deciding or explaining/rationalizing.

That's only a problem if you confuse sense of agency for agency. When you measure intentional behaviour, you're not measuring anyone's 'sense' of anything.

The fact that you can induce an artificial sense of agency doesn't imply that all agency is artificial, any more than the fact that you can induce optical illusions means that people can't really see.

Doing weekly chores, eh.

Regarding our small part of your tour de force, the problem is that sense of agency dominates experiments when, as you write, what needs be measured is agency. Putting a cap in agency is simple. Biological systems are reactive in accordance with the equilibrium, created/destroyed, wind down, die, laws of Thermodynamics. That brings us back to putting one in the world of 'sense of agency' which is what we're actually talking about here.

Working inside the human social sphere sense of agency works just fine as long as one realizes humans are no more God's creature than are robots man's creature. It works by a feedback system among players all of whom are reacting, but, as reactors they are also interdependent, meaning they require justification for not being eaten. That is to say the 'creator' is the same as the created since what it created is based on its prescriptions.

So much for philosophy. In the world of things that work things obey all four laws of thermodynamics (thank you Maxwell). Peter always pays Paul. Paul and Peter eventually die. Unless force is applied there is no change in motion which works for all things.

So back to the top. All we've been talking about on this thread is 'sense of agency' which puts the ball into the park of folk philosophy.
 
Science gathers information...but it has no evidence that that information is mindlessly created. Why do you think that science has to make the unsupported assertion that the information reaching our minds must be mindlessly created? Why can't you just accept information as raw fact, why do you have to embellish it with your non-scientific belief that the information that creates the reality around us must be mind independent? You set yourself up as a scientific thinker, then prove that you do not know the limits of science. Ho hum.

As I have already said, I am not a solipsist , I actually think that people like you exist...with your over confident faith in your abilities, abilities that the greatest philosophers have struggled to get anywhere near, that even solipsists would be jealous of...someone who knows what the fundamental basis of reality is .:D

If the world is actually the product of mind then I'd suggest that our will , and the way we direct it, becomes the meaning of our lives. It also means that this whole fucking universe was put here for us...which kind of makes our lives more important...and gives us good reason for developing self control, ie , free will.

If our minds are out of sink with the mind which encapsulates the universe, then that is proof that we have free will even if we are not free to do anything we like. I don't think many people think free will is the ability to do anything, I think for most people it simply means you are free to want what you like...but also have the capacity to learn to want something else.

Seen any good therapist lately?

Lol, it's funny how little weasels come out with that kind of comment on message boards, when face to face they would not dream of saying it. You are no philosopher and I guarantee you also have no balls...crawl back under your rock and carry on contributing nothing young lady.

Still , none of you have explained how you know that anything exists beyond the product of thought, so enough said really...you are all incapable of getting anywhere near explaining how you know that mindless material is the basis of reality...especially considering that the only thing that we know exists is thought.
 
As already explained, free will is not about being able to choose your preferences, it's about being willing to control your preferences with knowledge. So an alcoholic may well want another drink, but he is able to control his urge through knowledge of what it is doing to his liver. If his drive for alcohol outweighs his drive for health then he has to consider other drives to counter balance his drive for alcohol and self destruction...such as family , loved ones (for example). If he can't find something that kills his desire for drink , then he has truly found what he wants (drink and self destruction).

Free will/self control isn't about being able to choose anything, it's about being able to balance one desire against another.
 
Lol, it's funny how little weasels come out with that kind of comment on message boards, when face to face they would not dream of saying it.
The question was totally sincere. I think you would benefit from the suggested experience.

You are no philosopher
If by "philosopher" means someone like you then i can happily agree.

I guarantee you also have no balls...crawl back under your rock and carry on contributing nothing young lady.
"No balls", "young lady"?
Why is my gender important to you?
 
Why? A QM evenet could not have been different: what have happened belongs to the past and cannot be different.
Actually, in quantum events, a past event that has not been measured can be different. Hence quantum entanglement.
If you just had thought that thought through you would have realized what is wrong with that it: an actual decision must have "happened". an "unmeasured event" has not happened yet.


When you make a choice it is either random or calculated.
<Citation Needed>
Why? Because you cannot find anythibg better to say? I dare you to actually say something useful.

you can use deterministic models to predict such systems, doesn't [that] mean [that] the systems are deterministic?
no it doesnt. Classical mechanics is a good example.
 
I have explained it many times, what's one more.

Free will would objectively appear to have some randomness. These QM processes in the brain would produce some objective randomness. Most importantly, this fits common definitions of free will, "the ability to make choices that are not controlled by fate or God" (from http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/free will ).

That doesn't actually explain a thing, nada, nothing, niente, nisht.......that is your starting point, your proposition, broad definition or contention.

Now you need to give a description of how your definition/proposition/contention actually works.

You could start by addressing the questions I asked: describe or define the nature of 'I' - attributes, features, abilities and so on of 'I', including how your 'I' relates to Quantum Mechanics, the brain and 'free' will.
Here is a top down explanation.

Let's start with the largest system relevant to my argument, the "I"/"me". The largest and most relevant system that embodies "I" is the consciousness and unconsciousness and every physical attribute, mechanical and structural, that completes someones consciousness and unconsciousness.

From what I understand, the decision-making process is a component of both and either the consciousness and unconsciousness.

Now, if we can assume that the microtubules are a part of the decision-making process and have an effect on our decisions that cause at least some random decisions, then our decisions are not predetermined; there would be no reason why we couldn't have chosen differently.

A common and central part of the definition of free will is that we could have chosen differently. The decision-making process in "I" could have chosen differently
 
While I salute your grasp of Latex, the equation doesn't actually prove anything,
Of course not. It describes something.
except that if competing courses of action are defined as consisting of independent positive and negative numerical values multiplied by a scalar, then one course of action will generally end up higher than the other. Presumably the use of mathematical relationships was merely decoration? An attempt to make it look more sciency?
No. It was an attempt to eliminate wiggle room. Of course, I'm arguing against a position that is illogical to the core, which requires ignoring the fact that the reason you are arguing for free will is because you desire to do so based on your experiences, and what exists around you. None of us would be participating in this discussion if the opportunity and desire did not pre-exist our will to participate.

Of course we know that competing courses of action aren't independent values, that treating them as interval level data is unjustified, that decision making isn't just a comparison between two values, that isolating decisions from their context doesn't occur in practice, that the processing involved in decision making in is excess of the equation shown here, and that people in practice do not treat desire as a scalar, but as a pro or con in it's own right. Which leads one to wonder why you've isolated it as a scalar in the first line? Is it because otherwise, by your equation, people would do what they want to?
Desire has the vector symbol above it for a reason. It has magnitude and direction. I used scalar pros and cons, which is a great oversimplification. They could be vectors as well. The point was to simplify what will is to the level of something along the lines of \(\vec{F} = m \vec{a}\). Will can't be random- to will something, one must have something to focus upon, even if it's simply a misconception such as free will.

More generally the problem with this kind of equation is that it can be used to model almost any process. Because it can be used to model any process, the idea that it fits a particular process isn't terribly useful.
....
The fact that you can use QD models to predict deterministic systems with multiple variables doesn't mean that the systems aren't deterministic.
Then you would agree with the corollary? That because you can use deterministic models to predict such systems, doesn't mean the systems are deterministic?
 System might not be the right word, if you're going for something non-deterministic. Even if a system has pseudorandom inputs, and chaotic outputs, in isn't non-deterministic.

The system is still deterministic, because it is a system, even if it produces chaotic outputs, or samples pseudorandom noise for inputs.

Last, but not least, will cannot exist without desire. You do not intend (will) to do something without having the desire to do so. And accomplishing one thing often leads to wanting to do more things, unless one wants a nap.
 
That doesn't actually explain a thing, nada, nothing, niente, nisht.......that is your starting point, your proposition, broad definition or contention.

Now you need to give a description of how your definition/proposition/contention actually works.

You could start by addressing the questions I asked: describe or define the nature of 'I' - attributes, features, abilities and so on of 'I', including how your 'I' relates to Quantum Mechanics, the brain and 'free' will.
Here is a top down explanation.

Let's start with the largest system relevant to my argument, the "I"/"me". The largest and most relevant system that embodies "I" is the consciousness and unconsciousness and every physical attribute, mechanical and structural, that completes someones consciousness and unconsciousness.

This is just a longer version of your earlier remark. There is no additional detail.

From what I understand, the decision-making process is a component of both and either the consciousness and unconsciousness.

Decision making is a function of neural networks, not consciousness itself: consciousness being shaped and formed and generated by neural activity. More a report of decision making (readiness potential) than a form of decision making.

Now, if we can assume that the microtubules are a part of the decision-making process and have an effect on our decisions that cause at least some random decisions, then our decisions are not predetermined; there would be no reason why we couldn't have chosen differently.

Micro tubules are a part of the structure of a brain, but micro tubules are not aware of a preference in choice between chocolate or vanilla or the need to study for a promotion, or whether or not to go on a fishing trip on the weekend. Random elements do not constitute alternate reasons in the decision making process, you are either able to go fishing because other factors allow it, or you have to work, or your wife won't let you go, your car broke down or whatever...nothing to do with random micro tubule vibrations.

This is information processing.

Information is not random.

A common and central part of the definition of free will is that we could have chosen differently. The decision-making process in "I" could have chosen differently

Libertarian free will is a failed argument. You cannot choose brain condition in any instance of information processing. That being the state of the system which produces the decision that is made. You don't get to manipulate brain state backwards in time. Once made, a decision may be regretted a moment later, but not altered in the time it was made.
 
The question was totally sincere. I think you would benefit from the suggested experience.

You are no philosopher
If by "philosopher" means someone like you then i can happily agree.

I guarantee you also have no balls...crawl back under your rock and carry on contributing nothing young lady.
"No balls", "young lady"?
Why is my gender important to you?

See, you are just demonstrating your feminine bitchiness again.

I think that it is clear that I am the person who is using philosophy here. I am not pretending to know that anything exists beyond that which I know to exist, ie, thought. The rest of you do not seem able to accept that your materialist dogma is just that, dogma. It is clear that reality need not be dependent upon a mindless foundation, as " philosophers" you people should at least concede that (I think DBT does to a degree) , if you can't concede that then, as I said, you are not philosophers.

Your sex is of no importance to me, other than I tend to disregard women when it comes to philosophy because of their shallow,bitchy nature. I don't think any less of women because they don't make good philosophers though...there are other pursuits that women tend to be better at than men.

As an aside, I had a chat with a Swedish chap at work last year who had moved to the UK ,and he was telling me how fucked up your society has become...I can well believe it too.
 
It is clear that reality need not be dependent upon a mindless foundation, as " philosophers" you people should at least concede that (I think DBT does to a degree) , if you can't concede that then, as I said, you are not philosophers.

There is nothing that I need to 'concede' - there is a clear relationship between 'brain' and and 'matter/energy' As the brain itself is composed of 'matter/energy' there is a direct relationship between the entangled particles/wavicles/matter/energy of the World at large and the fabric of a brain. But this does not mean that consciousness, the activity of a brain and the evolved function of a brain, is creating the matter/energy of the Universe and the laws and principles of physics, the stars, galaxies, planets, evolution of life on earth, etc, etc, etc.
 
Here is a top down explanation.

Let's start with the largest system relevant to my argument, the "I"/"me". The largest and most relevant system that embodies "I" is the consciousness and unconsciousness and every physical attribute, mechanical and structural, that completes someones consciousness and unconsciousness.

This is just a longer version of your earlier remark. There is no additional detail.

"I" is the consciousness, unconsciousness and all that is physical for them to exist for some human. The physical body produces the consciousness. "I" is the body and the consciousness.
From what I understand, the decision-making process is a component of both and either the consciousness and unconsciousness.

Decision making is a function of neural networks, not consciousness itself: consciousness being shaped and formed and generated by neural activity. More a report of decision making (readiness potential) than a form of decision making.

So, do you think that the consciousness is something more than the body/brain?
Now, if we can assume that the microtubules are a part of the decision-making process and have an effect on our decisions that cause at least some random decisions, then our decisions are not predetermined; there would be no reason why we couldn't have chosen differently.

Micro tubules are a part of the structure of a brain, but micro tubules are not aware of a preference in choice between chocolate or vanilla or the need to study for a promotion, or whether or not to go on a fishing trip on the weekend. Random elements do not constitute alternate reasons in the decision making process, you are either able to go fishing because other factors allow it, or you have to work, or your wife won't let you go, your car broke down or whatever...nothing to do with random micro tubule vibrations.

This is information processing.

Information is not random.

If it is a QM processor, then the information being processed is random. The entire universe can be interpreted as a QM computer processing itself.
 
The question was totally sincere. I think you would benefit from the suggested experience.


If by "philosopher" means someone like you then i can happily agree.

I guarantee you also have no balls...crawl back under your rock and carry on contributing nothing young lady.
"No balls", "young lady"?
Why is my gender important to you?

See, you are just demonstrating your feminine bitchiness again.

I think that it is clear that I am the person who is using philosophy here. I am not pretending to know that anything exists beyond that which I know to exist, ie, thought. The rest of you do not seem able to accept that your materialist dogma is just that, dogma. It is clear that reality need not be dependent upon a mindless foundation, as " philosophers" you people should at least concede that (I think DBT does to a degree) , if you can't concede that then, as I said, you are not philosophers.

Your sex is of no importance to me, other than I tend to disregard women when it comes to philosophy because of their shallow,bitchy nature. I don't think any less of women because they don't make good philosophers though...there are other pursuits that women tend to be better at than men.

As an aside, I had a chat with a Swedish chap at work last year who had moved to the UK ,and he was telling me how fucked up your society has become...I can well believe it too.

So what you have succeded to prove is:

1) you have no idea what knowledge is.
2) you are a sexist chauvinist.
 
So what you have succeded to prove is:

1) you have no idea what knowledge is.
2) you are a sexist chauvinist.
He's aping a more primitive type of man. Thus the name... apeman. dun dun dun dunnnnnnn....
 
This is just a longer version of your earlier remark. There is no additional detail.

"I" is the consciousness, unconsciousness and all that is physical for them to exist for some human. The physical body produces the consciousness. "I" is the body and the consciousness.

Ryan, this is exactly what you said before, and many times before that, without even a bit of added detail.
So, do you think that the consciousness is something more than the body/brain?

The electrochemical activity of a body/brain, which is a property of the above.
If it is a QM processor, then the information being processed is random. The entire universe can be interpreted as a QM computer processing itself.

Any sort of 'processor' - by self definition - is not random.
 
"I" is the consciousness, unconsciousness and all that is physical for them to exist for some human. The physical body produces the consciousness. "I" is the body and the consciousness.

Ryan, this is exactly what you said before, and many times before that, without even a bit of added detail.

Well, since you defined the consciousness below, let's go with it, "The electrochemical activity of a body/brain". That definition combines both of my essential components of "I". So now we can say that "I" is just the electrochemical activity of a brain.
So, do you think that the consciousness is something more than the body/brain?

The electrochemical activity of a body/brain, which is a property of the above.

As I said above, we will define it as the electrochemical activity of the brain.
If it is a QM processor, then the information being processed is random. The entire universe can be interpreted as a QM computer processing itself.

Any sort of 'processor' - by self definition - is not random.

By "QM processor" I meant a processor that processes qubits (quantum information). In any case, "processor" is a very vague term. It essentially means that something had a physical effect on something else. So when you tell me that the brain is only an information processor, that is not really a problem for my argument.
 
So what you have succeded to prove is:

1) you have no idea what knowledge is.
2) you are a sexist chauvinist.
He's aping a more primitive type of man. Thus the name... apeman. dun dun dun dunnnnnnn....

A troll like Juma can bring the worst out of people. You are a troll, but not as mean spirited as Juma.
 
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