A simple explanation of free will.

[Juma]

The brain. That is: the nervous system works lika a system and the "in charge"-stuff is a result of cooperation of many parts that bulds up structures many scales bigger than the particles that are its building bricks.

But I am the conscious part of my brain. Wouldn't that influence what the rest of the brain does, which would be similar to how the rest of the brain influences me the consciousness?

That is vague enough to be true in any concious agent, thus saying actually nothing.

 

[ryan]

But I am the conscious part of my brain. Wouldn't that influence what the rest of the brain does, which would be similar to how the rest of the brain influences me the consciousness?

That is vague enough to be true in any concious agent, thus saying actually nothing.

Let me summarize what we are talking about. I am conscious. The consciousness is a process in the brain. The consciousness affects other processes in the brain, and these other processes affect the consciousness.

This is widely accepted, but it doesn't imply free will. The free will argument I have relies on the consciousness being indeterminable. This simply leaves the door open for free will. But I will also argue that the feeling of control which is consistent with what happens and the indeterminable nature of the consciousness are complementary to each other when arguing for free will.

 

[Juma]

That is vague enough to be true in any concious agent, thus saying actually nothing.

Why making a face over this? You simply didnt say anything at all. That is what being vague does to you.

The free will argument I have relies on the consciousness being indeterminable.

Which just dont hold since ability free will is not random actions and "hidden variables" has been ruled out long ago.

This simply leaves the door open for free will.

No. It doesnt. There are plenty other obstacles to be removed before there is an open passage for LFW.

 

[DBT]

That is vague enough to be true in any concious agent, thus saying actually nothing.

Let me summarize what we are talking about. I am conscious. The consciousness is a process in the brain. The consciousness affects other processes in the brain, and these other processes affect the consciousness.

Not quite right. It is specifically sensory input/memory interaction that feeds conscious activity during the progress of time and events that conscious representation is active. Remove sensory input and consequently conscious perception of the external world fails (sensory deprivation for example). Remove memory function and consequently recognition, thought and decision making disintegrate.

You are conscious because the brain is forming and generating a sense of 'you' and 'your' thoughts and experiences in that form. It is not this conscious sense of 'you' that is the agent of decision making and sense of control, just the normal information processing subjective/conscious representation activity of a brain.

 

[ryan]

The free will argument I have relies on the consciousness being indeterminable.

Which just dont hold since ability free will is not random actions ...

I would be very skeptical of any free will theory that is predictable by a different observer; don't you agree?

If not random, what else would free will would look like if it existed?

... and "hidden variables" has been ruled out long ago.

Hidden variables theories were attempts to explain QM deterministically. Free will does not have to be determinable from a different observer's point of view.

This simply leaves the door open for free will.

No. It doesnt. There are plenty other obstacles to be removed before there is an open passage for LFW.

I have yet to read any.

 

[DBT]

Hidden variables have been ruled out, but the MW interpretation eliminates wave function collapse and restores Determinism. Not that non deterministic/probability/ Schrodinger's equation particle state progressions are of any help to the argument for the affirmative.

 

[Juma]

Free will does not have to be determinable from a different observer's point of view.

You forget that your thoughts are presented to you by your brain. Thus "you" are also an observer. That you is the one "experiencing your conciousness" doesnt mean that you have more information than another observer.

 

[ryan]

Let me summarize what we are talking about. I am conscious. The consciousness is a process in the brain. The consciousness affects other processes in the brain, and these other processes affect the consciousness.

Not quite right. It is specifically sensory input/memory interaction that feeds conscious activity during the progress of time and events that conscious representation is active. Remove sensory input and consequently conscious perception of the external world fails (sensory deprivation for example). Remove memory function and consequently recognition, thought and decision making disintegrate.

Then where is the consciousness? You seem to be turning it into a ghost in the machine.

I am going to go out on a very small limb and say that a conscious recollection of memories is the consciousness at that time.

You are conscious because the brain is forming and generating a sense of 'you' and 'your' thoughts and experiences in that form. It is not this conscious sense of 'you' that is the agent of decision making and sense of control, just the normal information processing subjective/conscious representation activity of a brain.

Scientists have discovered "quantum vibrations" within neurons essential for the consciousness. I did not know about this a few months ago, but it should be incredibly obvious to anyone that such a small and intricate network of process in the brain would have at least some quantum behavior arising from it. It should also be obvious that the behavior of free will would look much like randomness to another observer. And the fact that we have this strong sense of control and execution should be at least be enough to argue for the possibility for free will.

 

[Juma]

And the fact that we have this strong sense of control and execution should be at least be enough to argue for the possibility for free will.

You also feel pain in the hurt part of your body. You see a 3d rendering of the world in color etc. The brain is literally sovereign when it comes to create illusions. Some of them in close likeness of the real world while others are not.

 

[ryan]

Free will does not have to be determinable from a different observer's point of view.

You forget that your thoughts are presented to you by your brain. Thus "you" are also an observer. That you is the one "experiencing your conciousness" doesnt mean that you have more information than another observer.

Let's keep everything the way that it is generally accepted. There is only one consciousness. However, I am a memory of myself. And I do not experience my experience; I simply experience.

 

[ryan]

And the fact that we have this strong sense of control and execution should be at least be enough to argue for the possibility for free will.

You also feel pain in the hurt part of your body. You see a 3d rendering of the world in color etc. The brain is literally sovereign when it comes to create illusions. Some of them in close likeness of the real world while others are not.

And this is a perfect example about why I gave up on certainty. Certainty will only let you down in the end.

 

[Juma]

You forget that your thoughts are presented to you by your brain. Thus "you" are also an observer. That you is the one "experiencing your conciousness" doesnt mean that you have more information than another observer.

Let's keep everything the way that it is generally accepted. There is only one consciousness. However, I am a memory of myself. And I do not experience my experience; I simply experience.

1) The "I" is not your memories. You dont need an "I" to have and experience memories.

2) when the brain thinks then you experience the thoughts of the brain.

 

[Juma]

You also feel pain in the hurt part of your body. You see a 3d rendering of the world in color etc. The brain is literally sovereign when it comes to create illusions. Some of them in close likeness of the real world while others are not.

And this is a perfect example about why I gave up on certainty. Certainty will only let you down in the end.

How about actually ponderong the effects on the pist I responded to instead of posting something totally off topic?

 

[bilby]

You also feel pain in the hurt part of your body. You see a 3d rendering of the world in color etc. The brain is literally sovereign when it comes to create illusions. Some of them in close likeness of the real world while others are not.

And this is a perfect example about why I gave up on certainty. Certainty will only let you down in the end.

I wouldn't be so sure about that if I were you.

 

[DBT]

Not quite right. It is specifically sensory input/memory interaction that feeds conscious activity during the progress of time and events that conscious representation is active. Remove sensory input and consequently conscious perception of the external world fails (sensory deprivation for example). Remove memory function and consequently recognition, thought and decision making disintegrate.

Then where is the consciousness? You seem to be turning it into a ghost in the machine.

I'm not, consciousness appears to be an attribute or emergent property the electrochemical activity of the brain. The absence of electrochemical activity means an absence of consciousness/self awareness/experience. Chemical imbalances result in distorted consciousness, distorted perception of self, thought and decision making.

I am going to go out on a very small limb and say that a conscious recollection of memories is the consciousness at that time.

That's not going out on a limb, conscious recollection is an aspect of consciousness. As is recognition, which is a memory function. As is thought, which requires memory function, etc.

Scientists have discovered "quantum vibrations" within neurons essential for the consciousness. I did not know about this a few months ago, but it should be incredibly obvious to anyone that such a small and intricate network of process in the brain would have at least some quantum behavior arising from it. It should also be obvious that the behavior of free will would look much like randomness to another observer. And the fact that we have this strong sense of control and execution should be at least be enough to argue for the possibility for free will.

We've been through this....if the conscious activity of all brains are indeed enabled by 'quantum vibrations' it is not 'quantum vibrations' that enable the profound differences between the cognitive abilities and behaviours of brains of different species (or individuals), but the macro scale architecture of specialist cells and network connections. It's a matter of scale. Scale matters.

 

[ryan]

Then where is the consciousness? You seem to be turning it into a ghost in the machine.

I'm not, consciousness appears to be an attribute or emergent property the electrochemical activity of the brain. The absence of electrochemical activity means an absence of consciousness/self awareness/experience. Chemical imbalances result in distorted consciousness, distorted perception of self, thought and decision making.

I am going to go out on a very small limb and say that a conscious recollection of memories is the consciousness at that time.

That's not going out on a limb, conscious recollection is an aspect of consciousness. As is recognition, which is a memory function. As is thought, which requires memory function, etc.

Scientists have discovered "quantum vibrations" within neurons essential for the consciousness. I did not know about this a few months ago, but it should be incredibly obvious to anyone that such a small and intricate network of process in the brain would have at least some quantum behavior arising from it. It should also be obvious that the behavior of free will would look much like randomness to another observer. And the fact that we have this strong sense of control and execution should be at least be enough to argue for the possibility for free will.

We've been through this....if the conscious activity of all brains are indeed enabled by 'quantum vibrations' it is not 'quantum vibrations' that enable the profound differences between the cognitive abilities and behaviours of brains of different species (or individuals), but the macro scale architecture of specialist cells and network connections. It's a matter of scale. Scale matters.

Much of what you think is known about the brain is not true. The process of memory retrieval, for example, is still unknown.

This link, http://discovermagazine.com/2007/aug/unsolved-brain-mysteries is a good representation of what I keep reading everywhere about the current state of what is not understood about the brain.

I have nothing left to add beyond these 2 next links. I hope you carefully look through them and not read only what I quoted.

Read, "As presented in Section 3.2, the information flow between neurons in chemical synapses is initiated by the release of transmitters in the presynaptic terminal. This process is called exocytosis, and it is triggered by an arriving nerve impulse with some small probability. In order to describe the trigger mechanism in a statistical way, thermodynamics or quantum mechanics can be invoked. A look at the corresponding energy regimes shows (Beck and Eccles 1992) that quantum processes are distinguishable from thermal processes for energies higher than 10-2 eV (at room temperature). Assuming a typical length scale for biological microsites of the order of several nanometers, an effective mass below 10 electron masses is sufficient to ensure that quantum processes prevail over thermal processes."

from http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-consciousness/#4.1 .

Read, "A review and update of a controversial 20-year-old theory of consciousness published in Physics of Life Reviews claims that consciousness derives from deeper level, finer scale activities inside brain neurons. The recent discovery of quantum vibrations in "microtubules" inside brain neurons corroborates this theory, according to review authors Stuart Hameroff and Sir Roger Penrose."

from http://phys.org/news/2014-01-discovery-quantum-vibrations-microtubules-corroborates.html#jCp .

 

[ryan]

Let's keep everything the way that it is generally accepted. There is only one consciousness. However, I am a memory of myself. And I do not experience my experience; I simply experience.

1) The "I" is not your memories. You dont need an "I" to have and experience memories.

Oh come on, that is a definitional argument. We don't even know what the hell "I" even is.

2) when the brain thinks then you experience the thoughts of the brain.

This is currently a huge debate. There are good arguments on both sides.

And this is a perfect example about why I gave up on certainty. Certainty will only let you down in the end.

How about actually ponderong the effects on the pist I responded to instead of posting something totally off topic?

The point was that you have all of this certainty that free will doesn't exist, yet you mention that so much in the brain can be an illusion. So how do you know for sure that free will does not exist?

 

[apeman]

I'm making the point that there may not be any such thing as mind independent material. I guess that the "material" you describe is such a thing...yes?

Something is mind independent, we cannot alter quantum rules by an act of mind, but only observe and act according to the rules. the evidence appears to show that matter/energy existed long before the advent of 'mind' - that is, before the evolution of minds of humans and other animals.....unless you mean the idea of 'Cosmic Mind' which collapsed wave function on a Universal scale, thereby forming the framework, stars, planets, etc, to enable the evolution of animal/human brains which collapse wave function in the sense of perceiving the solid appearing but ultimately virtual world of wave function/particles (wavicles) in conscious form? Is that what you mean? Or something else?

Yes, I'm implying that the universe is the product of a mind.

 

[Juma]

1) The "I" is not your memories. You dont need an "I" to have and experience memories.

Oh come on, that is a definitional argument. We don't even know what the hell "I" even is.

Dont we? "I" is the reflected representation of you as an agent. The self awareness.

2) when the brain thinks then you experience the thoughts of the brain.

This is currently a huge debate. There are good arguments on both sides..

What is supposed to be a debate? What are these "both sides"?

The point was that you have all of this certainty that free will doesn't exist, yet you mention that so much in the brain can be an illusion. So how do you know for sure that free will does not exist?

Because LFW is not logically consitent.

 

[DBT]

I'm not, consciousness appears to be an attribute or emergent property the electrochemical activity of the brain. The absence of electrochemical activity means an absence of consciousness/self awareness/experience. Chemical imbalances result in distorted consciousness, distorted perception of self, thought and decision making.

I am going to go out on a very small limb and say that a conscious recollection of memories is the consciousness at that time.

That's not going out on a limb, conscious recollection is an aspect of consciousness. As is recognition, which is a memory function. As is thought, which requires memory function, etc.

Scientists have discovered "quantum vibrations" within neurons essential for the consciousness. I did not know about this a few months ago, but it should be incredibly obvious to anyone that such a small and intricate network of process in the brain would have at least some quantum behavior arising from it. It should also be obvious that the behavior of free will would look much like randomness to another observer. And the fact that we have this strong sense of control and execution should be at least be enough to argue for the possibility for free will.

We've been through this....if the conscious activity of all brains are indeed enabled by 'quantum vibrations' it is not 'quantum vibrations' that enable the profound differences between the cognitive abilities and behaviours of brains of different species (or individuals), but the macro scale architecture of specialist cells and network connections. It's a matter of scale. Scale matters.

Much of what you think is known about the brain is not true. The process of memory retrieval, for example, is still unknown.

No, you miss the point. It doesn't matter that we do not fully understand the mechanisms of memory function, which is more than just remembering things (enabling recognition, self awareness, etc), nor would it matter if we knew nothing about the mechanisms of memory...what we do know is what happens when memory function fails.

What we know happens when memory function fails is, sadly, demonstrated in every clinical case of memory dysfunction and failure. We know from clinical examples that recognition breaks down. We know that patients increasingly cannot function or think coherently as the condition deteriorates.

Consequently, there is ample evidence for the role and function of memory retention and integration into consciousness, even if we do not understand how the brain integrates information and forms consciousness.

That is the point, that it is the condition of the brain that is reflected in its formation of consciousness and self, regardless of the role of 'quantum microtubules'...which are presumably an underlying aspect of all brains.