Socialism means public ownership of means of production. Sweden is not socialist.
That's just a stupid way of arguing. Let's create a rubber definition of socialism that only applies to failed economies. That way socialism is always a failure. Hooray. A win for capitalism.
When the concept of socialism was born in the 19'th century and as socialist political parties took power around the world and through trial and error the meaning of word evolved. In the 19'th century socialism and communism were synonyms. In the beginning of the 20'th century the two concepts split apart. You're talking about communism. But even that's starting to slide considering what's happening in China. In China the government officially owns everything. But in practice they, very much, respect private property. And there's no country on Earth where the government isn't legally able to seize private property if it's considered in the best interest of the government. Otherwise, how could we build infrastructure.
I think a simple way to put it is that in a socialist country the responsibility for your wellbeing is on the government. In any other system, it's on the individual or family. But of course, today, most systems are somewhere in between. Every country on the planet today is a little bit socialist. Any country with social welfare, if we're to be strict about definitions, is a socialist country. But I think that's a bit silly, because it just confuses what we're talking about.
This article sums up the evolution of the concept.
en.wikipedia.org
To stubbornly cling to a definition of socialism that hasn't been relevant for over a hundred years... is just silly on a discussion forum. What's the point with doing that?
Here's my issue with misusing the term: it's deceptive and it gives into the right wing. Right wingers started calling higher taxes and government programs to help people "socialist" in the 1940's. Most people hate socialism (for good historic reasons) and it makes passing good legislation more difficult. So why the hell give in to the right?
That's a historical development only true in one single country on this planet, USA. The rest of the world has a different relationship with the word "socialism". In the rest of the world, socialism never became a dirty word. Everybody adapting to protect sensitive American snowflakes of their sensitive irrational emotions surrounding a word, is stupid. Let's not. I think it's a better idea if Americans stop being silly.
But secondly, there are legitimate socialists. We've had many on this forum. They tend to get banned because they are so thin-skinned and defensive. It's sad. I like debating people that I disagree with. But I think that it's language appropriation to take someone's position on an issue that you disagree with (socialism) and apply it to the system that you like.
Yes. There's all kinds of ideological proponents. Not sure what your point is.
Anyway, yea I love Sweden. Love Finland. The US is just different. We hate paying taxes. We are cheap. We don't believe in as much of a safety net as do the Swedes. I wish that we'd move more left. Maybe we will in the future. Looks like we're heading right wing again. But if we do move a little left, won't make us socialist!
I personally think cultures are different. The history of a place shapes it culture and shapes what is possible to do in that culture. Geography, economy and natural resources, all play a part. I think counties tend to get the political landscape that it deserves.
I don't think Scandinavian style socialism is possible in USA. It would require Americans to put up with a generous helping of governmental paternalism. I have a hard time seeing Americans putting up with that. I think they'd rather see the White House burned to the ground rather than being told how to raise and educate their children. In Scandinavia parents have no say in how their kids are educated. None. The government is the sole responsible party for educating a child and if you disagree as a parent and try to stop it, you will go to jail for neglecting your child's needs. Sweden actually has a history of fairly horrific things being done to parents the state deemed were bad parents. There used to be home inspectors to check that all citizens cleaned their homes enough and kept it at an acceptable standard. Heavy fines if you weren't up to scratch.
Many people don't know this, but the Social Democrats who were in power in Sweden in parallel to the Nazis in Germany, had much the same kind of government as the Germans. Extremely authoritarian and paternal. But in a democracy. Swedes voted for this shit, and loved it. We didn't have censorship of newspapers. We still had an extremely authoritarian government. The world's first race biological institute was Swedish. Not German. They did exactly the same kind of research. Just not in concentration camps. We didn't gas our gypsies. We just forced sterilized gypsy women. Often without telling them. True story. We did the same with our lunatics and homosexuals.
Nostalgics today, pine for these times, and want them back. This political ideal is called "folkhemmet". Literally, "the home of a people". The state acting as a father raising the people to become good citizens. Swedes today often use this word, unironically, as something positive. Even though it means the same thing as "National Socialism". It's very disturbing. Swedens second biggest political party, Sverigedemokraterna, as their platform, want this back.
And just to be clear, they're not saying they want race biology back. They're saying they want governmental paternalism back. The core of the idea is that scientists know better how to run the world than normal people, so we should back off and let scientists run everything. That's pretty much how Sweden is run today. Sweden's Covid policies were based on the opinions of one person, the guy in charge of Swedish epidemiology research. The rest of the country just lay down flat, and let him have his way. Virtually zero debate. USA was different. In USA even non-academics had an opinion on USA's Covid response. Swedish people don't question scientists. They just don't. And considering Sweden's horrific history when it comes to how we, because of science, treated our gypsies, lunatics and gays, it's hard to explain to an outsider. It's hard to understand for me. It's bizarre.
It is interesting to speculate on why Scandinavian countries are this way. Me personally, I think it's to do with our Viking heritage. These lands used to be extraordinarily harsh to live in. either the entire tribe works together or everybody dies together. It creates conflict aversion, extreme conformity, a high willingness to compromise and an amazing ability to cooperate.
I don't love Sweden. I actually hate Sweden. I moved from Sweden to Denmark. Because I'm so fucking sick of it. I didn't move to Denmark because of the socialism. Denmark and Sweden are the same in that regard. But Denmark is an extremely tolerant culture, while Sweden is an incredibly intolerant culture. Otherwise, it's the same culture.
The theory on why Denmark is tolerant and Sweden is intolerant is because Copenhagen has been a mayor trading port for centuries. Various goods switching hands. Exotic crews mixing with Danes. While Sweden, up until very recently, was pretty insular. Sweden sold iron, wood and pickled herring to other countries. And that was the sum total of Swedish trade.
