Abbas doesn't want a peace deal

[Loren Pechtel]

http://blogs.cfr.org/abrams/2014/03/13/abbas-and-the-right-of-return-will-defeat-john-kerry

They are bending over backwards to ensure they can't compromise on the right of return and without such a compromise no peace deal is possible.

 

[bigfield]

Palestine will compromise eventually. They have to: the demands are unreasonable. It just won't happen any time soon.

Considering the context of the remarks, it seems that Abbas is just posturing, anyway.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Palestine will compromise eventually. They have to: the demands are unreasonable. It just won't happen any time soon.

Considering the context of the remarks, it seems that Abbas is just posturing, anyway.

They won't compromise so long as much of their income comes from continuing the war.

Besides, no Palestinian leader could compromise and remain in power--likely not remain alive.

 

[laughing dog]

Palestine will compromise eventually. They have to: the demands are unreasonable. It just won't happen any time soon.

Considering the context of the remarks, it seems that Abbas is just posturing, anyway.

If neither side is willing to compromise on an issue, how is it possible to argue that only one side doesn't want a deal?

 

[bigfield]

If neither side is willing to compromise on an issue, how is it possible to argue that only one side doesn't want a deal?

Arguing that one side doesn't want a peace deal does not exclude the possibility that the other side is also unwilling to deal.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If neither side is willing to compromise on an issue, how is it possible to argue that only one side doesn't want a deal?

Who is arguing one way or the other about what Israel is willing to do?


I was simply showing that Abbas is trying to make compromise impossible on a position they perfectly well know Israel can't accept. Saying that Israel won't accept suicide doesn't mean they aren't willing to compromise in other areas.

 

[arkirk]

One side won't compromise in talks. One side won't stop taking Palestinian land. Hmmmm...so what else is new?

Loren thinks that Israel is unwilling to accept suicide yet expects the other side to do so. Not really news at all and always so one sided? If the Palestinians give up the right of return, the Zionists win their little game of ETHNIC CLEANSING. That is really what this is all about.

 

[laughing dog]

Who is arguing one way or the other about what Israel is willing to do?


I was simply showing that Abbas is trying to make compromise impossible on a position they perfectly well know Israel can't accept.

Compromise was already impossible since Israel refuses to negotiate over the right of return. So what difference what stance on the RoR that Abbas takes?

Saying that Israel won't accept suicide doesn't mean they aren't willing to compromise in other areas.

Faith-based claims about the real world have no place in discussions about political realities.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

One side won't compromise in talks. One side won't stop taking Palestinian land. Hmmmm...so what else is new?

Loren thinks that Israel is unwilling to accept suicide yet expects the other side to do so. Not really news at all and always so one sided? If the Palestinians give up the right of return, the Zionists win their little game of ETHNIC CLEANSING. That is really what this is all about.

You still need to show that Israel is taking land. They haven't expanded since they built the wall.

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Compromise was already impossible since Israel refuses to negotiate over the right of return. So what difference what stance on the RoR that Abbas takes?
Faith-based claims about the real world have no place in discussions about political realities.

The right of return would mean a Palestinian majority in Israel. That would be suicide. Are you trying to deny this?

Therefore, what is there for Israel to negotiate about it?

 

[pegasus8]

It is actually quite sad and pathetic that Israel can take over and occupy other people's land on one hand and then cry constantly all these horrible "rocket attacks," that just so happen to have no exploding warheads. But have no fear because it gives, IMO, the American public a sense of how poor little Israel must ry to defend itself constantly against all those darky Arab types. Never mind that Abbas is today's punching bag in the corporate controlled media. And we all know that corporate America never stopped liking a war to fatten the coffers both Israel's and ours.

We are supposed to look down on Putin with a straight face and condemn his actions. Yet on the other hand we are supposed to support Israel and her illegal occupation of conquered territory with the false premise of integrity on the other?

Well at least we can hope that Israel unleashed another "incursion" into Gaza and or maybe parts of the West Bank and murder another 1000 Arab civilians in 2016 just like she did in 2008! Now that is truly reality in the real world right Loren? Nothing like homemade rockets versus 2000.lb laser guided concrete bunker busters I always like to say to teach those Arab people who is the boss and bully of the block. And by block we do mean the Levant!

We live in a truly mad mad world.

Peace

Pegasus

 

[arkirk]

Are we basing our discussion here on an article by Elliot Abrams. a man who is a lifetime warmonger and purveyor of anti Arab propaganda? If you like war, you listen to warmongers who tell you "what the bad guys are thinking." Get over it! The facts are on the ground in Israel. It is a nation of European Jewry, whose lands were seized from the Arabs by Nazi-like methods. This is simply NOT SOMETHING ABBAS CAN DECIDE FOR HIS PEOPLE.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It is actually quite sad and pathetic that Israel can take over and occupy other people's land on one hand and then cry constantly all these horrible "rocket attacks," that just so happen to have no exploding warheads. But have no fear because it gives, IMO, the American public a sense of how poor little Israel must ry to defend itself constantly against all those darky Arab types. Never mind that Abbas is today's punching bag in the corporate controlled media. And we all know that corporate America never stopped liking a war to fatten the coffers both Israel's and ours.

Where in the world do you get the notion that the rockets don't have warheads? They most certainly do.

The reason so few die is that Israeli civil defense is very good (they track the rockets, plot the impact area and sound the alarms. By the time they hit most people have made it to bunkers.) and when there is an ongoing barrage they tend to basically evacuate the cities being targeted.

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Are we basing our discussion here on an article by Elliot Abrams. a man who is a lifetime warmonger and purveyor of anti Arab propaganda? If you like war, you listen to warmongers who tell you "what the bad guys are thinking." Get over it! The facts are on the ground in Israel. It is a nation of European Jewry, whose lands were seized from the Arabs by Nazi-like methods. This is simply NOT SOMETHING ABBAS CAN DECIDE FOR HIS PEOPLE.

Then there's no point to the peace talks as Abbas is not capable of delivering peace.

 

[pegasus8]

There Will Never Never Ever Be A Free Palestinian Country As Long As Israel Has American In Here Pocket!

As long as Israel has America's veto power on the UN Security Council she will never have to follow the international rules on war. In other words Loren when civilians get killed in Gaza and the West Bank Israel does not have to worry about what the rest of the world thinks, does or can do to hold back the ruthless power of the IDF.

You argument is quite weak yet one must accept the fact that America through organizations and extremely powerful lobby groups like AIPAC,American Zionist Council, et al., have complete sway and say over Middle Eastern international politics. Translation Loren is that Israel first and America second! If one does not see this or refuses to see this simple obvious fact then simply look how American blood and treasure took out Israel's arch enemy at the time Saddam and the biggest military then in the area. If we look how both Libya and Syria have been devastated by internal civil wars backed, funded and supplied by CIA operatives that the benefit helps guess who then we can see this pattern in the region that promotes Israel's interest first and then America's second. Yet if one stated that American interest were "energy" interest then it would be good for America's interest.

Now take a wild guess who is Israel's new # 1 very bad enemy in the neighborhood today? If one would say Iran then they would win a cookie. Can anyone see a patern here evolving? Notice how we keep the Saudi Royals in power and pay off the Egyptian military to pretty much run Egypt with an iron fist. And golly gee what is Egypt's policy with regards to the border with Gaza? Do I really need to explain this fact of life in the real world? It is all about making the Arabs/Palestinians suffer in squalor and want.

And the homemade rockets and or the lame ass 81-100mm mortar rounds that the Palestinian militia manages to hit targets in Israel are a joke. How many people have been killed from these rocket/mortar attacks over the years? 5? 10? Maybe 20? Now how many Arab/Palestinian civilians have been killed in the same period? 1000? 2000? 5000? How many wells have been poisoned or filled up in the Palestinian territories to make room for "illegal " settlements? How many? How many 20' concrete walls does it take to set up an apartheid state system based on hate and ethnic cleansing to quenched the thirst for more occupied land?

We are never going to change each other position concerning Israel and the Arab Palestinians living under occupation. Ironically Loren I used to take the same exact position that you and most Americans take concerning Israel and the native Arabs. I used to work in West LA, Beverly Hills, etc and I heard it everyday from American Jews, Zionist, recent Russian immigrants etc., how we needed to support Israel all the time. It was not till later that when I want back to collage did I learn the ugly truth that is hidden and concealed from the American public.

So Loren bottom line is that I think that we as Americans should put America's interest first and not Israel's. No US President will ever go against the power and dominance of the Israeli lobby for fear of retribution and ostracism. And I will stand up for justice and the plight of the weak over the bully sledge hammer of the strong whenever and where ever I can. And if this means sticking up for the vanquished suffering of the Palestinian people then so be it.

If one does not believe me of the power of the Israelis over America then just looks what happens when Americans are killed by IDF in 1967 on the US Liberty! Or was this just another "misunderstanding?"

We came so close to bombing Iran a few years ago. And I just bet that this insane act would put a smile on some both in Israel and America! I used to think that this was just crazy but it is not. This is all well thought and planned out. Yeh it is all about how Abbas does not want peace. Yep sure it is and chickens have teeth too! Nothing personal against you Loren. I just hate to see more lies and falsehoods spread under the guise of peace.

Peace

Pegasus

 

[laughing dog]

The right of return would mean a Palestinian majority in Israel. That would be suicide. Are you trying to deny this?

You assume the most extreme form of RoR in order to draw your conclusion. Fascinatingly, your conclusion (suicide for Israel) does not necessarily follow from your premise.

Therefore, what is there for Israel to negotiate about it?

A RoR that is acceptable to both side to help cement peace. Duh.

 

[bigfield]

According to the UN, the total number of refugees and patrilineal descendants of refugees is about 5 million. [source]

If all of them were to return to the State of Israel, then the Arab population would increase to about 6.5 million, slightly greater than the current Jewish population of 6 million. They would be majority, and therefore the majority of voters. Future elections would likely be won by candidates espousing co-operation with the greater Middle East, and Judaism would likely lose it's privileged status in Israel. There would also likely be some degree of internal unrest.

According to an article in Time, the vast majority of these registered refugees do not want to return to Israel, anyway. [source] Most are more likely to return to the West Bank or the Gaza Strip in the State of Palestine, or not return at all. So in practice Israel would likely be dealing with a returning Arab population of less than 1 million, which poses no political threat.

So it is possible that the two states could reach an agreement on RoR which limits the number of returnees to Israel and offers compensation to the rest.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You assume the most extreme form of RoR in order to draw your conclusion. Fascinatingly, your conclusion (suicide for Israel) does not necessarily follow from your premise.
A RoR that is acceptable to both side to help cement peace. Duh.

I assume the most extreme form because that's what Abbas is insisting on by making it impossible to negotiate about the RoR.

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According to the UN, the total number of refugees and patrilineal descendants of refugees is about 5 million. [source]

Yes, so long as you accept the bogus definitions they use.

If all of them were to return to the State of Israel, then the Arab population would increase to about 6.5 million, slightly greater than the current Jewish population of 6 million. They would be majority, and therefore the majority of voters. Future elections would likely be won by candidates espousing co-operation with the greater Middle East, and Judaism would likely lose it's privileged status in Israel. There would also likely be some degree of internal unrest.

No. The result would be the election of hardline Palestinian candidates. While they might not actively engage in genocide they certainly would take no action against ethnic cleansing. Why should we expect anything less than the ethnic cleansing that has happened in just about every Arab nation?

According to an article in Time, the vast majority of these registered refugees do not want to return to Israel, anyway. [source] Most are more likely to return to the West Bank or the Gaza Strip in the State of Palestine, or not return at all. So in practice Israel would likely be dealing with a returning Arab population of less than 1 million, which poses no political threat.

They would be citizens, they would have a vote. Besides, the Palestinian government has made it very clear that return to the West Bank or Gaza is not acceptable.

The "Right of Return" isn't about justice, it's about destroying Israel via demographics.

So it is possible that the two states could reach an agreement on RoR which limits the number of returnees to Israel and offers compensation to the rest.

Look at the OP. Abbas is making it impossible to negotiate about the RoR, thus no compromise is in the cards.

As for compensation--fine, so long as all the displaced Jews also get compensation.

 

[laughing dog]

I assume the most extreme form because that's what Abbas is insisting on by making it impossible to negotiate about the RoR.

First, you always assume the extreme form But Israel's public insistence that it will not negotiate over the RoR is the extreme form of the opposite end. So, how is it possible that it is the fault of one party when both parties are publically adhering to extreme positions that the other side cannot accept?

Anyone familiar with negotiations understands that negotiations do not occur in public. Public pronouncements about positions are either for PR purposes or to scuttle the negotiations. There is no enduring peace settlement at this time because none of the relevant parties is truly committed to achieving a lasting peace. It really is that simple.

 

[Derec]

It is actually quite sad and pathetic that Israel can take over and occupy other people's land on one hand and then cry constantly all these horrible "rocket attacks," that just so happen to have no exploding warheads.

- Qassam rockets most definitely have explosive warheads (5-20 kg) and Palestinian terrorists occasionally use other rocket types with bigger warheads and longer range.
- Gaza, which is the Palestinian territory from which these attacks originate is not under Israeli occupation

But have no fear because it gives, IMO, the American public a sense of how poor little Israel must ry to defend itself constantly against all those darky Arab types.

Actually many Palestinians are rather fair-skinned. And many Israelis have olive skin as well. You are trying to bring skin-color where it does not belong.

We are supposed to look down on Putin with a straight face and condemn his actions. Yet on the other hand we are supposed to support Israel and her illegal occupation of conquered territory with the false premise of integrity on the other?

Very different situations.

Well at least we can hope that Israel unleashed another "incursion" into Gaza and or maybe parts of the West Bank and murder another 1000 Arab civilians in 2016 just like she did in 2008!

Where do you get your "1000 civilians" figure?

Now that is truly reality in the real world right Loren? Nothing like homemade rockets versus 2000.lb laser guided concrete bunker busters I always like to say to teach those Arab people who is the boss and bully of the block. And by block we do mean the Levant!

One thing that precision weapons are for is minimizing collateral damage. On the other hand, terrorists do not even have a concept of collateral damage (killing civilians is the entire point) so dumb weapons are good enough.

 

[pegasus8]

Most Of The Warhead Payload Is Quite Small Or In A Lot Of The Cases Zilch From The People I Have Talked To Over The Years.

Strike that about the rockets from Gaza then. It should more accurately state that a lot of the rockets fired into Israel do not have warheads. The ones that do actually make it into Israeli space have such limited payload capacity that their destructive local impact is more used as a psychological weapon then a terror tactical weapon. Yet any rockets fired uncontrolled against civilian targets seems to be a desperate act of a desperate people. I think that the casualty tables speak for themselves vs v the deaths caused by rocket attack versus bomb/artillery attack. More importantly Derec, and you are correct about the smuggled and or homemade rocket ordinance deployed by Palestinian militia groups against Israel, is to just look at the casualty tables for the IDF Cast Lead invasion/incursion into Gaza when that two face Obama got into the White House in 2008. At least the guys in Gaza fight back against over whelming odds against Israel unlike those bought off assholes crooks in the West Bank. So to talk about how Abbas does not want peace is rather disingenuous. Yet is does sound good echoing the narrative about the evils of the Arab world and how Israel is the Fort Apache in the boondocks.

Cast Lead from 12/27/08 to 1/18/09 caused about 1385 to 1417 Palestinians killed in Gaza compared to 13 Israelis killed. Of the 13 Israelis killed 4 were from friendly fire. Of the 1385 to 1417 Palestinians killed about 330 were combatants, 760 to 920 were noncoms and 318 to 313 were children. So as we argue and share dialogue about logistical explosives, over a 1000, " 1000," people were killed in just those few days in Gaza. It was basically like shooting fish in a barrel. My point for you and Loren is where is the outcry from our fellow Americans? We see the outcry from the UN and across the globe but such little attention here in the states. Why is one human life worth more than another human life? All humans and especially noncom's and children lives should be treated equally and with respect to the international laws. And this includes both sides of the occupation/war.

So I hate charts and links as it is my philosophy to not do other people's foot work for them. As I am sure that you had to site and source back in those school days as we all did. Since I paid my dues as you have one does not ever need to make stuff up; all the layers of information is out there. And for me one of the world's biggest lies is this whole two state solution BS that will never happen. It does not really matter since the Palestinian people will be made to suffer. There will never ever be a Palestinian state plain and simple.

So here are just two simple charts that are rather interesting:





So please notice when the rocket activity commenced in relationship to the execution of operation Cast Lead and the corresponding election of the Obama administration. It should be fairly straight forward and clear. My point is that the killing of the 1000 plus Palestinians in 2008 was a message IMO to the new administration and the accompanying rocket/mortar attacks on Israel. It is rather pretty slick and well thought out and executed.

WE are supposed to focus on the handful of Israeli deaths through the American media and chalk up the Palestinian deaths as just more dead Arabs. I mean it is pretty obvious IMO. So as not to beat a dead horse it is time to move on.

Peace

Pegasus

 

[arkirk]

Where in the world do you get the notion that the rockets don't have warheads? They most certainly do.

The reason so few die is that Israeli civil defense is very good (they track the rockets, plot the impact area and sound the alarms. By the time they hit most people have made it to bunkers.) and when there is an ongoing barrage they tend to basically evacuate the cities being targeted.

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Then there's no point to the peace talks as Abbas is not capable of delivering peace.

There ALWAYS IS A POINT TO PEACE TALKS...the desire of the people to live in peace. I pointed out that your source on this story was Abrams and he is a warmonger. He is telling us about what we are supposed to believe is happening in Abbas' brain. "Abbas doesn't want...." There is no way Abrams can know this. Abbas can only do what his people and Israeli domination will allow. I can't tell you what he "wants," except perhaps wanting to live a little longer. Abrams certainly cannot tell you. He is a military industrial talking point machine.